Cam's Eternally Broken LGT Oil Cannon

[cSlenker802]

Also, pretty stupid question but I still ask...

 

Are you making sure you are depressing the clutch while you are cranking? Asking cause I did that mistake after my valve clearance job. I was so stressed that I was forgetting to depress the clutch

 

Can't remember if you have an AT though.

 

Hahaha yes I am depressing the clutch. I've made the same mistake too honestly. Right after installing my new sb I battled with it .

 

Also for what it's worth I have also tried to crank it over in "flood mode" with the accelerator floored. Bit of a change in the noise it made while cranking but still no start.

 

Also through research on fourms I've seen a sensor/switch related to the clutch going bad causing the car to crank but not fire... Seems sorta far fetched to me in my situation so haven't really looked any further into it.

[cSlenker802]

And you have fuel lines hooked up correctly, i.e. "in" is in and "out" is out?

 

And you are timing it using timing mark on the crank and not the other mark on the crank right? NOT the arrow, use the hash.

 

Yes as far as I know the fuel lines are hooked up correctly...i havnt touched any of them since the last time I drove the car. And are you referring to the ones directly on top of the pump under the seat or ones in the engine bay near the firewall? As I said I haven't touched any of the ones in the engine bay and the ones on top of the pump im sure are correct since I just reassembled it today.

 

And in reguards to timing marks I am using the hash on the crank sprocket/gear. When that is aligned with the hash on the oil pump (I've actually been using the center seam of the block because the same dingus mechanic who fucked up my heads rtvd the pump on slightly crooked) all my cam gear timing marks are on dead nut. Am I missing something here? This was the first time I did it all on my own but I've helped time my car 3 other times prior to this and never ran into any of these issues. I was meticulous when putting the belt on to make sure all the marks were on so I'm having a hard time believeing now that the timing is off. Only reason I'm now doubting myself is because I was too lazy to actually count teeth.

 

Lastly on a side note, what is that arrow designed for? My instructor wants me to take my timing belt covers off again so he can look where that arrow points in reference to the hash. I told him that it doesn't matter and all that needs to be aligned is the cam marks and the hash on the crank / oil pump but he doesn't believe me. I'm not arguing with him since I've come to the conclusion that I at the least need to count teeth, which requires those covers off anyway, but I'm rather confident it's all time correctly. Especially since when I leaked it down I got such strong results... I could be mistaken but how could I have gotten under 10% leakdown all around if my timings so off I can't even get it to fire. That's where I'm getting lost. Makes me suspect something in the ecu preventing it to fire. But I know my ecu is fine because I've been using my AP to communicate with it every time before cranking it. Yeh. So I'm pretty much lost.

[xt2005bonbon]

To really make sure that you've installed the belt correctly, you want to count the number of teeth between pulleys per the FSM. Have you done that too already?

[Max Capacity]

Plug gap should be .028.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/timing-belt-replacement-2-5t-106809.html

 

 

 

Lot's of info there about timing.

 

 

Good Luck.

[cSlenker802]

To really make sure that you've installed the belt correctly, you want to count the number of teeth between pulleys per the FSM. Have you done that too already?

 

thats my plan for Monday when I get back to class. Kicking myself now for not taking the time to do it last time

[cSlenker802]

Plug gap should be .028.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/timing-belt-replacement-2-5t-106809.html

 

 

 

Lot's of info there about timing.

 

 

Good Luck.

 

Good to know... Who knows where I got .035 but at least the gap is a start. I'll check out that thread too. Thanks for your guys help! Now I just gotta wait all week to work on it again

[BarManBean]

I don't think that plug gap difference would prevent the car from running. Running perfectly, maybe. But not simply starting and idling.

[StkmltS]

Blown fuel pump fuse?

[xt2005bonbon]

Blown fuel pump fuse?

 

^He said he is hearing the pump working. So I am pretty sure the fuse is good.

[Max Capacity]

I don't think that plug gap difference would prevent the car from running. Running perfectly, maybe. But not simply starting and idling.

 

Yes, I realize that , but if he's going to be handling the plug's might as well do it right.

[cSlenker802]

Yes, I realize that , but if he's going to be handling the plug's might as well do it right.

 

Yeh I'm sure the wrong gap doesn't help but it should at least run like shit haha. All fuses are good too not sure if I mentioned that. All I can think of now is timing. Ordered the Subaru cam gear tool to make my life easier this time. Also a new timing belt for shits and giggles. Would bring off a tooth really give me this much hell? Cause I can't be off much more than a tooth or two... I was positive all the marks were dead on before assembly so if the timing is the issue its gotta me minor. I really wish I took the time too count teeth the first time around now...

[Max Capacity]

FWIW, years ago, when I did my V8 I timed it 180 out. The back fire through the carb was the first clue. It was an easy fix. these things are a different animal.

 

Make sure #1 is at TDC.

[cSlenker802]

FWIW, years ago, when I did my V8 I timed it 180 out. The back fire through the carb was the first clue. It was an easy fix. these things are a different animal.

 

Make sure #1 is at TDC.

 

When you say TDC are you talking true TDC in cyl 1 or TDC on the crank? Because if I'm not mistaken TDC by timing marks on the crank actually places the all pistons midway in the cylinder... The only way to find true TDC in an isolated cylinder is to feel for it. I could be wrong but to the best of my knowledge that's how Subarus work. So when timing you actually time it with all pistons mid cylinder and actually have to rotate the crank in order to find true TDC for #1.

 

Please someone correct me if I'm mistaken but that's what I've been going by... Either way counting teeth is in my near future

[xt2005bonbon]

that's correct. All pistons are mid way when you're working on the timing belt.

[Max Capacity]

No! TDC means #1 piston is at the top of the cylinder on the compression stroke, both valves (all valves) are closed with no pressure on them.

 

Anything else is not TDC.

 

You need to make sure your on the correct stroke, because there is a BDC too and 180* out when you think your at TDC but your on the wrong stroke.

 

Think about how a 4 cycle engine works.

 

Unless something changed...that's what I learned back about 50 years ago...

[birkhoff]

When the crank gear mark is aligned with the corresponding mark on the oil pump, the bottom end is in 'neutral' position with all pistons at the half-way mark in their bores. There is another, smaller, triangle mark on the crank gear that indicates TDC but that is not used for timing.

 

The corresponding position of the cams in timing position is variable. Some lobes are engaged with the buckets, especially on the LH bank, which is why you have to hold the cams to keep them from bouncing off the buckets while you fit the belt. Others are neutral.

 

There is nothing that corresponds to having Cyl #1 at TDC on compression stroke like we used to do, when timing modern engines. On rotation, the cam sensors report positions back to the ECU and the firing sequence is instantaneously determined. So, basically, the cams drive the timing process and the pistons follow.

 

The role of the crank position sensor is to fine tune things. Which cylinder fires next is determined by the cam sensors. The exact moment of ignition is determined by the crank sensor input and the ECU

[Max Capacity]

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x40/92Si/Picture070.jpg

 

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x40/92Si/Picture066.jpg

 

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x40/92Si/Picture064.jpg

 

Isn't that TDC ? I used that and my engine started right up.

[xt2005bonbon]

Just to clarify my statement, I am simply saying that when you have all the timing marks aligned for the timing belt service as per the FSM, all pistons are half way in. So obviously none of the pistons are at 'top dead center'.

 

Also I recall that all the passenger side valves are closed and some of the driver side valves are opened.

[birkhoff]

Isn't that TDC ? I used that and my engine started right up.

 

No, that is neutral position. In your first picture, see that little triangle on the outside of the tooth at the 3 O-clock position? That is your top dead centre mark. The timing mark aligns with the plane of the crank throws. When the timing mark is aligned with the pump, you have the crank throws vertical and the pistons all in neutral position.

 

Here is a pic of the gear on the crank, showing how it aligns.

[Max Capacity]

Thanks for the picture of the crank with the gear, that helps.

[cSlenker802]

No! TDC means #1 piston is at the top of the cylinder on the compression stroke, both valves (all valves) are closed with no pressure on them.

 

Anything else is not TDC.

 

You need to make sure your on the correct stroke, because there is a BDC too and 180* out when you think your at TDC but your on the wrong stroke.

 

Think about how a 4 cycle engine works.

 

Unless something changed...that's what I learned back about 50 years ago...

 

I gotcha I gotcha for any other engine that is 100% correct but as discussed earlier when timing these pistons are mid stoke. There is obviously still is a true TDC which can be found once the engine is timed by cranking it over but when the crank sprocket hash is lined up it is NOT actual TDC.

 

Had to explain the same thing to my instructor. He had never timed a Subaru and was insistent of the same thing. Ended up having me put a extension down the spark plug hole to prove myself innocent enough mistake considering I don't know any other engine which does this...

[Max Capacity]

Yep, watching the piston push the pin up to the top is the best way.

[birkhoff]

On the off chance that you still don't have your engine running, there are two things you may want to look at.

 

The first has already been mentioned: inadvertently swapping the coil pack leads. This has been reported in other threads. The car may sort of run, or not. It may not start at all. The leads are colour coded, but someone may have changed out a connector with one of the wrong colour. If you marked the connectors before you took them off, you can safely eliminate this possibility since the car was running before you did this work. Otherwise . . . do a pin out from the FSM.

 

The second possibility is more subtle. When you install the intake cam gears you need to align a hardened dowel pin on the cam nose with a bore in the (soft) back of the gear. This is tricker than it looks. It is safest to fit the gear by hand, past the seal, and seat the dowel before you install the cam bolts. If you don't seat the pin, and use a cam bolt to 'draw things in,' the hardened dowel can cut a new hole adjacent to the old one and set your intake timing off. Maybe as much as 10 degrees. The kicker is, the timing belt and marks will look perfect from the outside Imagine being 10 degrees off on the cam gear and timing belt marks. You'd be scared to crank it! If you've tried everything else, and have the belt off anyway, pull the AVCS gears and check for fouling of the alignment holes.

 

The exhaust gear is entirely the opposite since you can see the pin and alignment from the outside before you install the bolt.

 

Always best in these situations to concentrate first ONLY on those things that were touched during the repair. You didn't pull the engine, so that greatly reduces the list of possibilities.

[cSlenker802]

On the off chance that you still don't have your engine running, there are two things you may want to look at.

 

The first has already been mentioned: inadvertently swapping the coil pack leads. This has been reported in other threads. The car may sort of run, or not. It may not start at all. The leads are colour coded, but someone may have changed out a connector with one of the wrong colour. If you marked the connectors before you took them off, you can safely eliminate this possibility since the car was running before you did this work. Otherwise . . . do a pin out from the FSM.

 

The second possibility is more subtle. When you install the intake cam gears you need to align a hardened dowel pin on the cam nose with a bore in the (soft) back of the gear. This is tricker than it looks. It is safest to fit the gear by hand, past the seal, and seat the dowel before you install the cam bolts. If you don't seat the pin, and use a cam bolt to 'draw things in,' the hardened dowel can cut a new hole adjacent to the old one and set your intake timing off. Maybe as much as 10 degrees. The kicker is, the timing belt and marks will look perfect from the outside Imagine being 10 degrees off on the cam gear and timing belt marks. You'd be scared to crank it! If you've tried everything else, and have the belt off anyway, pull the AVCS gears and check for fouling of the alignment holes.

 

The exhaust gear is entirely the opposite since you can see the pin and alignment from the outside before you install the bolt.

 

Always best in these situations to concentrate first ONLY on those things that were touched during the repair. You didn't pull the engine, so that greatly reduces the list of possibilities.

 

Thanks for the input both things I've checked but definately worthy mentioning...especially the dowel pins as they did battle with me when installing the gears. I took the belt off yestersay ans counted teeth. I was one tooth off to the right of the crank and half a tooth off to the left of the paasenger intake gear. I imagne that was what was causing my issue. Now just waiting on my new timing belt and ill get things back together. Maybe if my belt still doesnt show up tomorrow ill pull the cam gear to double check the dowel pins.

[xt2005bonbon]

IIRC, the FSM says that valves will get in contact with the pistons if you are more than 3 teeth off. So you may be ok in that regard.

The timing belt on my 06 skipped once up to 3.5 teeth. Engine is still running strong but I did have a tight valve 10k later. Don't know if this is just a coincidence.