Cam's Eternally Broken LGT Oil Cannon

[cSlenker802]

So first off this is my 3rd engine in this legacy I bought the car as a naive high school kid wanting nothing more then something boosted and awd. I've very literally learned the hard way as I have now been screwed over by multiple shops, one engine builder, and my own teenage ignorance.

 

All that is irrelevant at this point, but what matters now is over the summer I "successfully" installed a new short block from Subaru along with a vf52, supporting mods, tune, etc. Upon the first start up I battled with misfire issues turning out to be a combination of a bad coil pack and o2 sensor. I finally was able to drive it, and within the first 10 minutes or so of driving I already experienced another issue. I got back from a VERY short drive (literally 10 minutes down the road; on a break in tune and obviously out of boost) and was greeted with a magnificent cloud of smoke coming from my engine bay. I quickly noticed it was coming from the timing belt cover and tore it off to find it filled with oil...

 

Now I didn't say this before but my inexperienced self had paid a mechanic, who had previously done decent work installing an earlier SB, to install the heads and timing components for me. I did this because I was inexperienced and I guess (I laugh at this now) scared.

 

Well anyway after looking around a bit I narrowed it down to both intake cam seals leaking. I immediately contacted the mechanic, and as he should he offered to fix it free of charge. I had the car towed out to him, and he stuck to his word and replaced the cam seals all around. Well to make a long story short the car is still with him and still leaks just as bad.

 

It is most defiantly the Intake Cam seals as I thought and we have tried nearly everything to fix it. We first tried new seals to no avail. He claims he used a micrometer and measured the diameters around the seals first to make sure that the head body isn't out of round but i'm not sure if I believe him...we'll see once I can get inside and take a look myself. He said that wasn't it and we threw the new seals in. After blowing this set of seals we replaced both intake cam sprockets because mine were clearly worn down under where the seal sits. He claimed this to be the issue and a couple nights ago I went to go pick it up. It was not leaking at the shop, even under throttle input, which is when it was blowing out before, so I paid him this time for the timing belt job (essentially), and went on my way. Not even 5 miles down the road, right before I turned on to the interstate to go home my oil light came on. I immediately knew the cause (obviously) and opened the hood to THE MOST magnificent cloud my car has made to this day. In this short drive it blew all 5 liters of oil out the Intake Cam Seals and pushed me to the point of loosing my mind. I had the car towed back to the shop because it was closer than home (an hour away for me) and that is where it sits now.

 

I have 0 intentions to pay this mechanic any more of my money for work I can do myself at a higher level of quality so I will be getting the car towed back to me on Monday. Although I am still in high school, I have learned a great deal about working on these cars from my various failures along with installing the new block. I now have no reservations on working on my car as it should be and plan on pulling the engine again to rip the heads off and figure this issue out. I also am in technical school so 3-4 hours of my day is spent in Auto Tech each day. I have access to all the tools I need so this time around it'll be a much easier process then the last time, when I did everything in my garage with stands and hand tools lol.

 

So now FOR ANYONE STILL READING, this is where I need your help. I believe my issue is in the outer diameter of the head body. I'm thinking they are either out of round and/or worn to the point that the seals are just getting blown out of their seat when oil pressure is built under actual engine load. BUT this is just my thinking. I suspect I will need new heads in the long run and I have already begun looking, but I was hoping for any input you guys may have for me at this time. I will be pulling the the engine next week at some point and measuring the diameters around the seals myself. I will update this post with anything I find. Any help would be greatly appreciated! The only other left field possibility I can think of is maybe I have the crankcase breathers routed wrong causing excessive pressure to build in the valve covers? The hose routing I did myself and was meticulous about, but I am now second guessing and questioning everything remotely located around there. I will also be verifying those are correct next week when I have the car in my shop. PLEASE HELP! As cool as the spraying of oil and clouds of smoke are , I would love to actually be able to drive my legacy for the first time in a year and 2 new short blocks. Pics to come.

-Cam

[BarManBean]

Before you pull the motor (or not)...it sounds like there is possibly too much RTV used to reseal the cam "baskets" that hold the front of the cams in place. This blocks the small oil passages there which I believe can cause cam seals to blow out.

 

When you install the baskets, you use VERY little RTV--easy enough to use too much.

 

You could technically fix this in the car without pulling the motor.

[BarManBean]

Sidenote: if you need new heads I currently have 2 sets. Had grand plans for them, but at the moment I'm going through some home issues and would part with a set. Give me a shout if you need.

[cSlenker802]

Before you pull the motor (or not)...it sounds like there is possibly too much RTV used to reseal the cam "baskets" that hold the front of the cams in place. This blocks the small oil passages there which I believe can cause cam seals to blow out.

 

When you install the baskets, you use VERY little RTV--easy enough to use too much.

 

You could technically fix this in the car without pulling the motor.

 

That could very well be the issue I can't say I ever looked for that or thought of it being related. If that is the case then it is the mechanics fault. I'll take a look on Monday or Tuesday and see what it looks like. I believe I know the part your talking about, right under the OCV correct? At the seam of the two parts which make up that "basket" where the seals go in? Cause he did go crazy with RTV there if I remember correctly.. Which is interesting.

 

Also in the case I DO need new heads I will defiantly be contacting you! Good to know someone has an extra set!

[BarManBean]

Correct. It's completely a mechanic error if he used too much RTV there. If you take a pic of the outer seam area and post it up it might be easy enough to tell--if there's a bunch of RTV sticking out he likely used too much.

[xt2005bonbon]

Yeah. Check this picture:

 

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m159/Scruit/919845B2-EF2E-44F0-8E85-BB610A66E009.jpg

[BarManBean]

Couple videos by another user also:

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNlghZi21Wk]Subaru AVCS rtv oil passages - YouTube[/ame]

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W28wd8Z624]AVCS 2 - YouTube[/ame]

[xt2005bonbon]

Due to this little known issue, I made sure on my second valve clearance job to put very little rtv there. I felt like I was doing some surgery or something .

[cSlenker802]

Got a picture but gotta transfer it to the computer before I can post it... Probably will make you laugh. RTV all over the seam. I'd be willing to bet that's the issue.

[cSlenker802]

This is the only picture I got until I get the car towed but from the looks of it theres a whole lot of RTV on there. In the case that is the issue, I can just jack the engine up and get at it from there correct? Should be enough room to get the rocker cover off and remove the outer half of the bucket. Obviously once the timing components and seals are off. Or am I wrong in thinking that and I do need to have the engine out to properly re-RTV the bucket on?

[xt2005bonbon]

You should be fine doing it with the engine in place. It is tight but it is possible. I adjusted my valve clearance with the engine in place, and did not even raise it.

[StkmltS]

Dude, I have total faith in your ability to fix the problem just from how well written your first post is. I'm also impressed with your ability to afford all of the work you've already had done haha.

 

Just the intake seals blowing out is good evidence that supports what other people have already said.

It's probably a very "minor" mistake of too much RTV in the passages. It's hard to imagine a reason why the outer diameters where the seals sit would be too large.

 

I've also adjusted my valves with the motor in the car, so I know it's very possible.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

[cSlenker802]

Dude, I have total faith in your ability to fix the problem just from how well written your first post is. I'm also impressed with your ability to afford all of the work you've already had done haha.

 

Haha I appreciate that man! And yeah I work nearly every night bar backing and busing tables to pay for everything...crazy what people do for cars

 

Just the intake seals blowing out is good evidence that supports what other people have already said.

It's probably a very "minor" mistake of too much RTV in the passages. It's hard to imagine a reason why the outer diameters where the seals sit would be too large.

 

I've also adjusted my valves with the motor in the car, so I know it's very possible.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing how this turns out.

 

Yeah I couldn't really see how the housing would be off but I couldn't think of what else it could be after replacing the inner seat/cam sprocket. Can't wait to get started on it in the next few days but also gotta do tie rods and an alignment on my truck damn chevy is starting to shit the bed lol. Ill keep ya updated with how things go!

[rapture]

Jeez , sorry to hear about all this bs your going thru!

But , mad respect for the fact that your doing work yourself!

Ive learned similar lessons myself

All for the loove of subi lol

I cant say whats the issue but i hope you fix it, youve been thru way too much already

Just wanted to say ive been there im sure alot of us on this forum can relate

But how awesome is it that now you have alot of exp., and knowledge ... I mean

You could poss make more money wrenching on subi's then the bar job? Just a thought

Either way good luck man

We are here for you lol

[birkhoff]

I think the guys/gals have you pretty sorted on this. The passages leading back from the cam nose through the baskets are drain pipes for the pressurized oil that runs through the front of the cam, into the hydraulic cam gear and then back to the engine sump. If the drains are plugged, then full oil system pressure is building behind your cam seals. That situation cannot persist for long, as you have discovered.

 

This is a do-able job in place, but it is fussy to work in there, and as you saw, even a full-time mechanic is prone to lose patience and not take enough care. If you have access to a hoist, this engine is one of the easiest of modern engines to pull. Doing the re-seal with the engine suspended from a lift, or better yet, on a stand, has many advantages for a first-timer.

 

Just so you know. All the timing gear has to come off the front of the engine. The valve covers and all four cams need to come out. You need to watch that the cam buckets don't fall out, and you need to figure out a way to get just the right amount of sealant in there. See post 41 in THIS THREAD for one idea. A lot of these little challenges disappear on an engine stand.

 

Can I second the observation by StkmltS earlier that you have a knack for this? I read your first post from beginning to end, long as it was. But is was clear and to the point! That will take you a long way on this forum.

[cSlenker802]

Jeez , sorry to hear about all this bs your going thru!

But , mad respect for the fact that your doing work yourself!

Ive learned similar lessons myself

All for the loove of subi lol

I cant say whats the issue but i hope you fix it, youve been thru way too much already

Just wanted to say ive been there im sure alot of us on this forum can relate

But how awesome is it that now you have alot of exp., and knowledge ... I mean

You could poss make more money wrenching on subi's then the bar job? Just a thought

Either way good luck man

We are here for you lol

 

Thanks it means a lot to hear that! Defiantly a rough way to learn but I've honestly enjoyed all the wrenching. Sorta changed my view on life after highschool. My plan is to go to college for mechanical/automotive engineering after this year but with everything I've learned I could always fall back on opening a shop. The knowledge from working on these cars is priceless...

 

Also can't thank everyone enough on this fourm for all the input. Can't describe how helpful you guys are. You wouldn't believe how little people know about these cars around here. I essentially have gotten as far am just using this fourm and a service manual so that's a testament to how great this site is. Hopefully get going on it tomorrow. I'll keep ya guys up to date

[cSlenker802]

I think the guys/gals have you pretty sorted on this. The passages leading back from the cam nose through the baskets are drain pipes for the pressurized oil that runs through the front of the cam, into the hydraulic cam gear and then back to the engine sump. If the drains are plugged, then full oil system pressure is building behind your cam seals. That situation cannot persist for long, as you have discovered.

 

This is a do-able job in place, but it is fussy to work in there, and as you saw, even a full-time mechanic is prone to lose patience and not take enough care. If you have access to a hoist, this engine is one of the easiest of modern engines to pull. Doing the re-seal with the engine suspended from a lift, or better yet, on a stand, has many advantages for a first-timer.

 

Just so you know. All the timing gear has to come off the front of the engine. The valve covers and all four cams need to come out. You need to watch that the cam buckets don't fall out, and you need to figure out a way to get just the right amount of sealant in there. See post 41 in THIS THREAD for one idea. A lot of these little challenges disappear on an engine stand.

 

Can I second the observation by StkmltS earlier that you have a knack for this? I read your first post from beginning to end, long as it was. But is was clear and to the point! That will take you a long way on this forum.

 

Thanks for the advice I believe I am gonna at least jack the engine up to make it a bit easier on myself. Also new seals (obviously) so I'll have to time it over again. Again, I appreciate you compliments on my initial post.. Took me a bit to word it right but the way I saw it you gotta be specific to get any sort of help

[Max Capacity]

You may want to think about jacking up one side of the engine at a time. so the buckets are held in by gravity.

 

Also remove the banjo filter in the banjo bolt on the front of the drivers side head, if its still in there. I think we talked about before.

 

Good luck.

[StkmltS]

When I adjusted my valves I just slipped a little piece of cardboard between the cam and buckets before the buckets fell out, and held the cardboard there with the cam caps/bolts. My way seemed easier than trying to jack up one side of the engine high enough to keep the buckets in place.

 

Instead of removing the filter from my banjo bolt I just swapped it with the filter-less bolt on top of the avcs valve. It seemed like a good compromise between the two common opinions (clean it vs. remove it).

[cSlenker802]

You may want to think about jacking up one side of the engine at a time. so the buckets are held in by gravity.

 

Also remove the banjo filter in the banjo bolt on the front of the drivers side head, if its still in there. I think we talked about before.

 

Good luck.

 

Can't say I woulda though of it but I can image that would help. I'll let you know if I end up trying it. And yes I believe the filter is already off the driver's side as well. I'll make sure to double check.

[Max Capacity]

Can't say I woulda though of it but I can image that would help. I'll let you know if I end up trying it. And yes I believe the filter is already off the driver's side as well. I'll make sure to double check.

 

I would imagine jacking the frame on one side at a time would do the same and is easier then jacking the engine.

 

Just think it through, have a plan, you'll do fine.

[cSlenker802]

Quick update for anyone interested... Been slow going with other cars coming in and out of the garage but I have it torn down to the cam sprockets. Broke 2 of the bolts free using the timing belt method (holding the crank) but still got 2 stuck on. Tried an impact gun but no luck. May try some heat on them today if I can without melting the teeth. Otherwise a bolt extractor or cutting the heads off? Ill be getting new bolts anyway. Also before I put all the timing back together i'm going to leak the engine down to make sure I didn't bend any valves in this whole process. Damn cam gears moved around a lot after doing this 4 or so times. Ill post pictures when I get further into it. -Cam

[Max Capacity]

In this thread, http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/idea-web-links-saved-various-parts-219238.html

 

I think there's a link to the correct bolts your looking for and a hardened bit. Pretty common problem on these cars.

[xt2005bonbon]

Quick update for anyone interested... Been slow going with other cars coming in and out of the garage but I have it torn down to the cam sprockets. Broke 2 of the bolts free using the timing belt method (holding the crank) but still got 2 stuck on. Tried an impact gun but no luck. May try some heat on them today if I can without melting the teeth. Otherwise a bolt extractor or cutting the heads off? Ill be getting new bolts anyway. Also before I put all the timing back together i'm going to leak the engine down to make sure I didn't bend any valves in this whole process. Damn cam gears moved around a lot after doing this 4 or so times. Ill post pictures when I get further into it. -Cam

 

I used a bolt extractor from harbor freight and it worked for me. As for bending valves, you should be ok since all four pistons are half way in.

[birkhoff]

Quick update for anyone interested... Been slow going with other cars coming in and out of the garage but I have it torn down to the cam sprockets. Broke 2 of the bolts free using the timing belt method (holding the crank) but still got 2 stuck on. Tried an impact gun but no luck. May try some heat on them today if I can without melting the teeth. Otherwise a bolt extractor or cutting the heads off? Ill be getting new bolts anyway. Also before I put all the timing back together i'm going to leak the engine down to make sure I didn't bend any valves in this whole process. Damn cam gears moved around a lot after doing this 4 or so times. Ill post pictures when I get further into it. -Cam

 

Don't heat them! The bottom gears are plastic and the top bolts are hollow and full of oil! Even if this weren't the case, heating from the heads is unlikely to do much to change the situation down at the threads in the cam.

 

If you are committed to not reusing the bolts, drilling out is a tried and true option.

 

It is known that an impact gun doesn't work, probably because there is too much slop in the system. A long bar will break them loose, eventually. When you said you used the timing belt trick, you did take off the belt and make a loop directly over to the crank, right? There is way too much play in the system if the timing belt is still installed and you are holding only at the crank pulley. There are plenty of articles around (search this forum) so show how to do this. It kind of kills your belt though.

 

This kind of thing tends to make you reconsider pulling the engine. Since you are this far already, you probably want to try to finish the job in place.