whitetiger Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 ^3.6 runs on 87oct also the 3.6 does not have AVLS IIRC the 3.6 tuned to run on 93oct with I/H/E should easily do over 300chp. The problem is that that motor is on heavier cars equipped only with slush boxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 EZ30D is higher CR and runs on 91+ octane. EZ36D has lower CR and runs on 87 octane. EZ36D also has offset connecting rods and believe Subaru saw this as an engineering liability at higher performance levels, all else equal. - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KRM Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 I hope we didn't lose anyone over that long pause. I have great news. I'm not going to say yet. A picture is worth 1,000hp? is that how it goes? Pics coming soon. Awesome. Thought we'd lost you or ran into a hang up with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phate Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 is the EZ36D leaving something on the table? Maybe its fuel economy related? With a 300hp NA Legacy, I would bet a large majority of us would forget about not having the turbo LGT anymore. I feel like there is so much untapped potential in these 6 cylinder engines and am looking forward to the results! The 3.6R runs on 87 octane despite having a decently high 10.5:1 CR, so it's definitely leaving something on the table. It doesn't have AVLS, but does have dual AVCS. My dad has a 2010 3.6R, it's a great car with a sweet engine. I just don't like how big and soft 5th gens feel. That engine in a manual 4th gen (even with a 5MT) would be pretty much perfect in my opinion. Similar speed to a stage 2 GT (without the torque mountain at 3000rpm), with all the reliability of a naturally aspirated engine that isn't even trying that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesA Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 That engine in a manual 4th gen (even with a 5MT) would be pretty much perfect in my opinion. Similar speed to a stage 2 GT (without the torque mountain at 3000rpm), with all the reliability of a naturally aspirated engine that isn't even trying that hard. Subaru sold a similar car in Europe which was the 3.0R Spec B. This one is from the UK. You can read reviews of this car online and see videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapnJack Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 The 3.6R runs on 87 octane despite having a decently high 10.5:1 CR, so it's definitely leaving something on the table. It doesn't have AVLS, but does have dual AVCS. My dad has a 2010 3.6R, it's a great car with a sweet engine. I just don't like how big and soft 5th gens feel. That engine in a manual 4th gen (even with a 5MT) would be pretty much perfect in my opinion. Similar speed to a stage 2 GT (without the torque mountain at 3000rpm), with all the reliability of a naturally aspirated engine that isn't even trying that hard. I've run 87 and 89 in my 3.0 without issue. The manual says I can and that premium is preferred but not required. I do notice a decrease in HP when running lower octane though. I start to see some knock feedback in the data, but nothing that scares me. I'm disappointed that Subaru went that conservative on the tune on the 3.6. I have heard about some that are tuning the 3.6 and picking up some nice gains, but struggled to understand if it was from the CVT programming improvements or the engine itself. I think it's a combination of both. How long the CVT will last at those levels is yet to be determined. Agreed on the feeling of the 5th gens. I test drove one and it felt slower and less planted than my 3.0R. I told the dealer that and they were shocked and looked at me like I had a third ear. I truly wish they would put a 3.6 with a 5MT (or 6MT) and tune it for premium. That would be a fun car. I'm hoping that's what the OP did here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargak Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 I can't believe I missed this thread... One thing I've never understood is why the 3.0 and 3.6 are rated almost identically in HP and TQ. For reference: EZ30D - 242hp / 219lbft EZ36D - 256hp / 247lbft With an increase of 20% in displacement I would have expected more hp/tq. Was the EZ30D maxed out or is the EZ36D leaving something on the table? Maybe its fuel economy related? With a 300hp NA Legacy, I would bet a large majority of us would forget about not having the turbo LGT anymore. I feel like there is so much untapped potential in these 6 cylinder engines and am looking forward to the results! The 36 also has a broader torque curve and better mileage, did I mention it's lighter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargak Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 Subaru sold a similar car in Europe which was the 3.0R Spec B. This one is from the UK. You can read reviews of this car online and see videos. One step ahead of you: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252765990623?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Anyone ever heard of an S402? There's a car I'd kill for. Look at the seats in this one. It looks like the STI and Tribeca seats had a baby: Love the grill badge and rims. Now to source them.. The article: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/forbidden-jdm-fruit-subaru-legacy-sti-1725840547 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargak Posted February 20, 2017 Author Share Posted February 20, 2017 Ok guys so I'm currently torn. I got about $4500 cash to make a decision. These are my options: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Outfront-Motorsports-EJ257-Shortblock-Closed-Deck-10-1-Forged-EJ25-STI-WRX-EJ255-/301447260729?hash=item462fa82a39:g:ix0AAOSwuMFUlEu-&vxp=mtr or http://www.ebay.com/itm/252765990623?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT ... Now let me explain. I've done gobs of research and have concluded the most reliable 30+ psi 2.5l Subaru build is the Outfront motorsports as they have engines pushing 45psi reliably tracked, dragged, and DD and I've heard they can do much more. I've also decided on a 4x wideband setup if I do chase the higher numbers for safety's sake. Would that mean I give up on the EZ build? No, it would be for simplicity and the fact I can buy off the shelf parts for it. It's a question of cash at the moment. Which brings us to option #2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252765990623?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT The question then is.. How much more would it cost to get this going? Better to grab a motor and ecu for now and skip the 6 speed? Grab some Moore blast plates and pray. I need an ECU and wiring to do this correctly, but I'd have a solid 6 speed to play with. So what about the EZ36? Well, the Tribeca is doing surprisingly well.. So I don't have an excuse to tear into it just yet. We bought it with 348k miles and it just hit 370k This motor must have been built on a Wednesday In other news, I spoke to John from Outfront. And he has the magic key to the EZ36. ...And has been using it for a while now.. He's been decking, and boosting EZ36's for a little while now. The recipe? He has rods! and the crank? well the crank is the weakest point he stated can only handle 8 psi reliably. So instead of spending $7k on a custom crank, the EZ30 crank (with minor modifications) drops right in and de-strokes it a bit. Then you need to spend $700 on special valve springs and this thing revs to 8k rpms with gobs of torque matching the HP not being dwarfed by it like the EZ30. It's expensive, but with a sigh of relief there is a (doable) recipe that is quite frankly incredible. This setup is my goal still as it was when I started. We just needed people with some disposable income to throw at him. He passed enough product from JE I think it was that they had him send a rod to them and they made a "tough" rod that he said should handle somewhere north of 1khp with a 3.4l 8krpm torque monster decked build. Some snippets from communication with John: "Here are some pics, we are rebuilding a 7 year old ez30 motor right now, so the block in the honing machine is a used block getting rebored I have finished ez36 blocks right now closed deck, just cant get them down for a pic. new EZ30 crank is $550ish modify snout to fit and Nitrating is being performed right now, price TBD but guessing $400 rods are custom units we had made 8 years ago, still use the same ones today but trying to now squeeze a larger pin in the piston, if we have enough real-estate with the ring stack we be making a new custom rod with larger pin. our rods also incorporate bearing tabs to use the wider and more available sti rod bearings!!!. head studs plenty, close deck to your block is $1000, we can do the SB assembling for $1200, bore with deck plates is $375, rods with the 22mm pin in stock at $900 John Rykowski Outfront Motorsports" Info about an EZ30's work: " ez30 breakdown: teardown and inspection 100 valve job, adjust and resurface 700 gasket set 350 main bearings OEM 215 rod bearings, king race 75 head studs 399 boring with deck plates 375 closed deck 1000 piston set, cp with rings and pins 1000 4340 h beam rods set 900 water pump 140 labor for shortblock assembly 1200 12 hours short block to longblock assy 1200 12 hours valve springs and ti retainers 700 cams? porting? what is the application? the intake cams have .395 lift, which is great but the stock exhaust cams have only .350 lift this is not bad, just not great John Rykowski Outfront Motorsports" So which way should I go? Find another EZ to bolt in to the LGT leave it as N/A until I find some more cash?? or build this one up and enjoy it for now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Its hard to say, i would say that's a high estimate for parts and labor, but being that the name sounds familiar to me and i'm from ny means they probably have the client list and reputation to charge that kind of money. 1200 dollars to assemble the long block.... same cost to assemble the short block? That to me screams, i'm bending you over this table and ******* you up the ass... all those prices for parts seem to high. But like i said, they probably do high quality work and that's what your really paying for at the end of the day. So I would price out all the parts on their list and see how hard they are trying to bang you over the head, might be cheaper to get parts urself if they don't mind, as well as try to negotiate those labor costs and ask them to explain and justify 12 hours to assemble long block on top of shortblock assembly, otherwise I would try to gather as much info on their build spec and see if sourcing it out elsewhere might make it cheaper. Seriously I would go down there and get the real nitty gritty and talk shop, from my experience a lot of estimates via email are always on the high end, because the people who actually do the real work are busy working! I don't think this John Rykowski guy does much machine work. They charge 700 for the heads 1200 for the shortblock and then another 1200 to put the two together... that says I push papers all day or i'm swinging for the fences! Whats so special about the valve springs? When I hear or see those words I think gimmick.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Back in 2014 I compiled a list of OEM and aftermarket parts for the EZ30R on the Factory Five 818 forum. Here's a re-posting of it. Obviously most of the prices have probably gone up since then: The Supertech Pistons are not listed on the Supertech website, but I have a Motovicity account and found them there, in stock. If anyone wants these parts PM me and I'll get you a price. P6-SU8920-N18 Dome/Dish Vol: -18cc Gram Weight: 321g Skirt: Round Comp Ratio: 8.5:1 Head CCs: 42 Pin Dia: 22mm (.866") Bore: 89.20mm Comp Height: 1.193"(30.3mm) Oversized: Std MSRP is $97 They also have the Supertech valves, dual valve springs and titanium retainer Supertech dual spring + Ti retainer kit: Part #:SPRK-EZ30-W; Dual Valve Spring Kit; Spring: SPR-H1002D (12) + SPR-TS1015 (12); Retainers: RET-TS5.5 (12) + RET-H1000/T2 (12); Seat: SEAT-TS/SUH6E (12, Exhaust Only) [subaru Legacy(2008-2009), Subaru B9 Tribeca(2006-2007)] Specs: Seat Press: 85@ 31.9mm (Inner) Seat Press: 60@ 36.10 (Exhaust) MSRP: $698 Notes 2nd Gen EZ30 w/ AVCS More: CF-34-2.5; Cam Follower 34mm x 26 x 2.5+ Shimm 8mm diam. $19.58 Part #:SIVN-1043, Intake Valve, Length: 99.80mm, Head Dia: 35.00mm (Std), Material: Black Nitrided, Stem Dia: 5.45mm MSRP $26.71 Pauter Rods: SUB-220-550-1315F : $1,200 OEM Bearing Set: $167 OEM Crank: $468 OEM Block: $1,175 OEM Short Block: $2,557 OEM Overhaul Gasket Set: $254 Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 A couple of more re-posts from our 818 thread, again fall of 2014: I (Sgt. Gator) contacted Tim at Raptor in OZ. Besides making a supercharger for the EZ30 they also sell headers and a new CAI for the NA version. Here's his response about the EZ30R: Great to hear from you, have learned what a Factory Five 818 is from your email! Next thing, I am no EZ30 specialist (I wish) when it comes to the internals like dry sump and other mods. For the most part I don’t have that knowledge, or at least not at this time. That said I will fill you in on some of what I know and hope it helps. 1. The factory oiling system in the motor is for the most part entirely adequate up to 7100 rpm, beyond that the pump really struggles and will let you down – keep the rpm under control and you are fine. 3. The factory exhaust manifold is restrictive if you are chasing good NA power, we have headers that will add up to 40hp with a custom tune and good pipe setup. 4. The engine has a high air demand which is not met by the stock air intake tract, you can measure up to 14” of water gauge restriction if the factory air induction system is used. We have a RAM intake that reduces the restriction down to around 3” of water gauge and significantly improves high rpm breathing. 5. Supercharging the motor – Supercharging the EZ30 is a good thing to do, if you keep the boost at 11psi or less combined with a good tune – the engines are highly durable and will give you around 440hp very easily (stock internals) 6. Turbocharging is being applied quite often too, the results are even more crazy, keep the temps in check and keep boost at around 9psi for good durability and amazing power (stock internals) 7. The factory ECU – can do anything you want – you just need a good opensource tuner – the sky is the limit and ANY mods can be accommodated. The DENSO unit is very good. 8. It is true we are probably offering more EZ30 bolt on parts for power than anyone else in the world, but we don’t dig inside, it’s a motor that besides being quite complex can be horrendously expensive to build up. It is a highly durable engine and we simply extract the power it can give up safely and at lowest cost for the customer. 9. Head gasket failure on the EZ30 – its common enough here in Australia. Basically once a car has covered 150 000km you can expect it any day, just a few go further without problems. Just goes with the motor. Reason not known. The Victor Reinz gasket set is very good – everyone in AUST buy it from USA Ebay. Head Gasket kit number Gasket Set HS54655 . And from Jeff Sponaugle who probably has more experience with building and running twin turbocharged EZ30's: "I have done a number of EZ30Rs (turbocharged) as well as a couple of NA EZ30Rs. I am doing an EZ30R in my 818, build thread here: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14139-Sponaugle-s-H6-EZ30R-818S Nasioc: https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1215617 https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1645176 https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1187722 I have a turbo EZ30R in my bugeye, and a second one for the 818. Here is my viewpoint based on my experience: If you are looking for over 300whp, you should do some type of forced induction solution. I have tuned two EZ30R N/A platform cars, and both of them were somewhat disappointing in terms of total power. Even using higher octane fuels, large variances in timing, AVCS and ALS, open exhausts, lean AFRs and rich AFRs, and everything else I could come up with resulted in pretty small gains. In general, it is a well optimized NA motor. If you are not rebuilding with larger displacement, you will not be adding 100whp. As a turbo platform, it actually works very well. The cam profiles respond well to boost (assuming you change the valve springs), and the AVLS works well in term of off boost response. The AVCS helps with spool a little bit, but you are pretty quickly running the AVCS at full retard so the difference is not as much as you would see on the 2.5L. As for the oil system, it is pretty good. The pump vane diameter is larger than the EJs, the total case capacity is a lot more, and the head flow seems to not cause problems at the bottom of the sump. I have tracked my EZ30R without any problems at 500whp. I rev to 7200 rpm and oil pressure is still at 85psi. Obviously you could do a dry sump, but the verdict is out on if that is needed." And finally, I have seen folks try to use the H6 in a couple of high G capable road race cars. They don't last because of the oiling. Flat 4's and 6's just won't live beyond 1.2 G's of side force without a dry sump. I spent some time digging into the oil system of the EZ30 and EZ36 in regards to dry sumping them. I came to the conclusion that I could possibly make a DS pan and DS pump system for the EZ30 (Maybe!), but the oil system on the EZ36 is very different from the EZ30 and the EJ series. On the EZ36 the oil pump is inside the pan, not on the outside of the block like the EZ30/EJ25 series. I don't see how it could be dry sumped without extensive engineering. In a "normal" Legacy track car at 1.1G you'd probably be fine, especially if you add a Canton Accusump or Moroso Accumulator. But in a 1.8G 818 it will have to be dry sumped. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargak Posted February 21, 2017 Author Share Posted February 21, 2017 I assume I can get a better deal, but this guy seems to be the only person that knows how to manage an EZ36. Autoscience actually does some work with a destroked ez36 but he knows nothing about rods while John had them built just for his shop and has had them for 8 years.. What would you think a good price on build/assembly to be? He said the springs had to be completely custom on the 36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 IMHO : Outfront has been making Subaru H6 engines for sand rails for a long time. I would trust John to know what he's doing. At one time I played with the idea of building 818s with the H6 engine as a business. I would have outsourced the engine builds to Outfront for the buyers that wanted a "new" engine. The biggest hold up is engineering a dry sump solution. I still own the Racing818.com domain name. Here's John discussing his closed deck blocks: Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC813 Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 One step ahead of you: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252765990623?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Anyone ever heard of an S402? There's a car I'd kill for. Look at the seats in this one. It looks like the STI and Tribeca seats had a baby: Love the grill badge and rims. Now to source them.. The article: http://oppositelock.kinja.com/forbidden-jdm-fruit-subaru-legacy-sti-1725840547 S402 is insanely rare even in Japan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phate Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 My vote is on NA 6 cylinder swap first. because that will net you a car we never got here in the states. And there is a solid chance of me doing that to mine after it blows up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 I assume I can get a better deal, but this guy seems to be the only person that knows how to manage an EZ36. Autoscience actually does some work with a destroked ez36 but he knows nothing about rods while John had them built just for his shop and has had them for 8 years.. What would you think a good price on build/assembly to be? He said the springs had to be completely custom on the 36. You are right they are definitely top shelf, but top shelf has the ability and right to run you over if you don't make them explain things properly and let them molest you in the corner, its very easy from their perspective! I'm not saying they are crooks, just saying this is America! I just don't see how he charges the same for shortblock and longblock assembly! From my experience, when you get both head and shortblock work done, assembling the long block shouldn't be the same cost as assembling the shortblock, which actually involves a lot more precise measurements and wtf's, assembling the longblock is tossing in studs or bolts and a headgasket and then bolting together. Most shops discount longblock assembly at that point, and even without a discount I don't see how its more than 500 dollars, 500 should get you full block assembly, I have never paid more than 300 dollars for long block assembly. Is there something i'm missing when assembling an h6 longblock? I assume its just like every other motor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tehnation Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Isn't putting an ez30 crank in an ez36 essentially making it an ez30? Are the bores different? I thought the displacement was made by the crank or rods? I'm trying to make my vote but I'm not very well informed on the 30 or 36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusonsubie Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Isn't putting an ez30 crank in an ez36 essentially making it an ez30? Are the bores different? I thought the displacement was made by the crank or rods? I'm trying to make my vote but I'm not very well informed on the 30 or 36. Bore is different as well as the crank and stroke. I've done some reading as I would love to do a TT H6 at some point and the more research I do the 3.6 just isn't as good of an option unless you have TONS of money to dump into custom parts. The 3.0 has rods and pistons available on the market so all that needs done is the block made closed deck and it should be good to make gobs of torque and power. 2005 Vader Wagon Material Tests on Ringland Failure Piston I should have held off and purchased a wagon instead of the spec.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Bore is different as well as the crank and stroke. I've done some reading as I would love to do a TT H6 at some point and the more research I do the 3.6 just isn't as good of an option unless you have TONS of money to dump into custom parts. The 3.0 has rods and pistons available on the market so all that needs done is the block made closed deck and it should be good to make gobs of torque and power. I agree the EZ30R is a better choice for aftermarket parts and cost wise. However if you are doing time attack at a high level the aero/tire grip will be too much for the oiling. And no one has developed a dry sump pan for the EZ30 yet. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargak Posted February 24, 2017 Author Share Posted February 24, 2017 IMHO : Outfront has been making Subaru H6 engines for sand rails for a long time. I would trust John to know what he's doing. At one time I played with the idea of building 818s with the H6 engine as a business. I would have outsourced the engine builds to Outfront for the buyers that wanted a "new" engine. The biggest hold up is engineering a dry sump solution. I still own the Racing818.com domain name. Here's John discussing his closed deck blocks: Yes I did quite a bit of research before mentioning it. I agree this would be the best "quality" option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dishwasher Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 My wife has a Tribeca with the ez36 in it. Subscribing for ideas. Brought to you by Pfizer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithcraft Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Isn't the MCM SuperGramps an EZ36? SC 1994 Legacy MI 2008 Legacy GT specB 2023 Crosstrek Limited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phate Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Isn't the MCM SuperGramps an EZ36? SC Yup, and they seem to be of the opinion that it's pretty close to the limit of power for the bottom end. I want to see them blow it up and put a built motor in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargak Posted March 23, 2017 Author Share Posted March 23, 2017 Still in the works. I have news. stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.