Setting up the LGT for SCCA Classes (D Street -> STX -> ASP -> SM)

[StoplightAssassin]

Re71s are so close to the Nitto NT01 or Toyo R888 that they've become kind of irrelevant IMO.

 

You've gotta get a better suspension setup though. Konis on stock springs and camber isn't coming close to the target for ASP.

[cBax]

bucko, do you run your LGT at Devens?

[whitetiger]

Re71s are so close to the Nitto NT01 or Toyo R888 that they've become kind of irrelevant IMO.

 

 

agreed. no point running a compromise tire under 200tw. for autox, the chice is clear. RE-71r for street and touring, Hoosier A7 for everything else.

 

nothing good on the horizon so for to challenge the re-71r.

[bucko3the7man]

Re71s are so close to the Nitto NT01 or Toyo R888 that they've become kind of irrelevant IMO.

 

You've gotta get a better suspension setup though. Konis on stock springs and camber isn't coming close to the target for ASP.

 

For the amount that Jerry wants to autocross and spend on autocross, I don't think he's looking to be nationally competitive in ASP. He's definitely graduated beyond "hey i've never done this before I wonder if I'll like it or not" though, and with that comes buying SRS BSNS tires.

 

Definitely look into the KCA399 kit to get actual camber in the rear, and think about some camber bolts in the front. If you shoot for -2.5 F -2.0 rear or so, that'll be pretty good for your setup.

 

bucko, do you run your LGT at Devens?

 

Not anymore, but I did for a solid two years. I've got a BS S2000 now, I'm doing one more year in stock class with it, then I'm going to see what I can do with a mostly prepped AP1 in STR with the big boy AP2s, NC (probably ND at that point too) and MR2s. I'm already beating BS cars that my car shouldn't be beating, there's a guy in an evo that's really good that I contend with, and I beat our local hotshoe C5 drivers this year, and there was a fully prepped BS AP2 that I was beating as well.

 

agreed. no point running a compromise tire under 200tw. for autox, the chice is clear. RE-71r for street and touring, Hoosier A7 for everything else.

 

nothing good on the horizon so for to challenge the re-71r.

 

Unless Jerry gets real ASP suspension then A7 are not going to be good for him. Plus, he'll have no real tires for the rain events. I'm still going to recommend RE-71R and chill.

[cBax]

Not anymore, but I did for a solid two years. I've got a BS S2000 now, I'm doing one more year in stock class with it, then I'm going to see what I can do with a mostly prepped AP1 in STR with the big boy AP2s, NC (probably ND at that point too) and MR2s. I'm already beating BS cars that my car shouldn't be beating, there's a guy in an evo that's really good that I contend with, and I beat our local hotshoe C5 drivers this year, and there was a fully prepped BS AP2 that I was beating as well.

 

Now I think I know who you are. You have Brockman's old S2K? And manage to piss him off regularly by beating his new S2K? I came down several times with him in my white Mazda 3 this year. We did the team challenge together with the BMW club too. I think he likes his new STR setup much better.

 

Edit (to not be so off-topic):

I agree that RE-71s are the way to go if you aren't planning to do suspension at the same time. Everyone always says that tires are 1st, but A7s are probably too much for a stock-ish suspension. I'd go 200tw tires for a little while until I had 10k+ spring rates.

[bucko3the7man]

Now I think I know who you are. You have Brockman's old S2K? And manage to piss him off regularly by beating his new S2K? I came down several times with him in my white Mazda 3 this year. We did the team challenge together with the BMW club too. I think he likes his new STR setup much better.

 

Edit (to not be so off-topic):

I agree that RE-71s are the way to go if you aren't planning to do suspension at the same time. Everyone always says that tires are 1st, but A7s are probably too much for a stock-ish suspension. I'd go 200tw tires for a little while until I had 10k+ spring rates.

 

Yup, that's me! He got so salty when I started beating his new car with his old car. I think I remember you as well!

 

He definitely likes his STR setup better, and frankly I do too. I'm doing one more year in BS to save up money for STR prep in 2017.

[StoplightAssassin]

For the amount that Jerry wants to autocross and spend on autocross, I don't think he's looking to be nationally competitive in ASP. He's definitely graduated beyond "hey i've never done this before I wonder if I'll like it or not" though, and with that comes buying SRS BSNS tires.

 

Definitely look into the KCA399 kit to get actual camber in the rear, and think about some camber bolts in the front. If you shoot for -2.5 F -2.0 rear or so, that'll be pretty good for your setup.

 

I'm not talking nationally competitive...he's got the wrong car for that. I'm talking put a sleeve kit on the car and get a set of Hyperco springs and camber plates. I'd want to revalve the Konis for higher rates as well. I'm running 500/600 on my car, and its too much spring for the OTS Yellows. I'm looking into some TC Kline D/As next.

[Dujo]

Now, Stoplight, this is another story that I might look into. Whitetiger was recommending serious bizness coilovers north of $4000, which is money already halfway to an NB Miata. So at this point, I'm looking to follow bucko's (and many other folks') path to a lighter RWD car (Miata, S2000, MR2, and such), but I'm not really ready for that yet. I just don't think my wife is ready for me to convince her that we NEED a fourth car in our family. But it's in the long term plans for me for a few years down the road.

 

In the meantime though, I've gotta run what I brung. I do have some discretionary spending room though and I'd still like to set up the LGT wagon a little better, but without going completely crazy. $4000 coilovers is past that tipping point for me. However, I am looking for more camber as I'm still running close to stock geometry on the stock camber bolt in the front and no adjustment in the rear. I do have the Koni/Epic combo with Whiteline bars front and rear. (As bucko mentioned, I am still running soft in the rear, which I need to switch to hard during my Spring refresh in March or so. I did switch the front bar from hard to soft in the middle of this season and was rewarded with my first spin ever. Now that I feel like I'm starting to get that under control, it's time for the next step.) I also have Whiteline bushings on the sways and also at all three mounting points on the front LCA.

 

I am looking for more camber in the front and rear, so I am looking at KCA399. I'm not really sure what to do about camber plates. I feel confident there's something out there that's adjustable with a tophat that fits our struts, but I just haven't found it yet. As far as sleeve kit ... I guess I don't really know what that is. Can someone point me in the right direction on that? And I've never heard of Hyperco springs, but I'll check into those too.

[TiagoSantos]

Sleeve kits are basically bits you mount or weld to your struts to convert them to coilovers. It allows you to use proper springs (like Hyperco springs!), meaning you're not stuck with whatever a "coilover" manufacturer has decided would be the ideal spring rate. In essence, you're building your own "coilovers" - pick the right shock, pick the right spring (or a range of springs) and presto.

[whitetiger]

yeah, nothing wrong with sleave kits. that how to do it old school before aftermarket coilovers for the masses became a thing. you still will have to do somthing about the valving in the shock to deal with the higher springs rates you would use. best is to call Koni and talk about a revalve.

 

the KCA 399 kit is fine, but look in to the KTA124 kit instead. much more alignment control, and if you pair that with the KCA399, you can do some fun things with the rear track width of the car.

[Rhitter]

yeah, nothing wrong with sleave kits. that how to do it old school before aftermarket coilovers for the masses became a thing. you still will have to do somthing about the valving in the shock to deal with the higher springs rates you would use. best is to call Koni and talk about a revalve.

 

the KCA 399 kit is fine, but look in to the KTA124 kit instead. much more alignment control, and if you pair that with the KCA399, you can do some fun things with the rear track width of the car.

 

How does messing with the rear track width of the car affect the AWD system?

[StoplightAssassin]

Koni True choice in Ohio or PSI in California can rebuild/revalve the shocks. I spoke with both shops in the past week and both were very helpful.

[StoplightAssassin]

Now, Stoplight, this is another story that I might look into. Whitetiger was recommending serious bizness coilovers north of $4000, which is money already halfway to an NB Miata. So at this point, I'm looking to follow bucko's (and many other folks') path to a lighter RWD car (Miata, S2000, MR2, and such), but I'm not really ready for that yet. I just don't think my wife is ready for me to convince her that we NEED a fourth car in our family. But it's in the long term plans for me for a few years down the road.

 

In the meantime though, I've gotta run what I brung. I do have some discretionary spending room though and I'd still like to set up the LGT wagon a little better, but without going completely crazy. $4000 coilovers is past that tipping point for me. However, I am looking for more camber as I'm still running close to stock geometry on the stock camber bolt in the front and no adjustment in the rear. I do have the Koni/Epic combo with Whiteline bars front and rear. (As bucko mentioned, I am still running soft in the rear, which I need to switch to hard during my Spring refresh in March or so. I did switch the front bar from hard to soft in the middle of this season and was rewarded with my first spin ever. Now that I feel like I'm starting to get that under control, it's time for the next step.) I also have Whiteline bushings on the sways and also at all three mounting points on the front LCA.

 

I am looking for more camber in the front and rear, so I am looking at KCA399. I'm not really sure what to do about camber plates. I feel confident there's something out there that's adjustable with a tophat that fits our struts, but I just haven't found it yet. As far as sleeve kit ... I guess I don't really know what that is. Can someone point me in the right direction on that? And I've never heard of Hyperco springs, but I'll check into those too.

 

Hyperco(il) and Swift probably two of the best springs out there. At this point, you need a camber plate that will properly seat on the top of the Koni shaft. You'll need lower and upper spring perches, depending on what size inner diameter spring you get. 60mm springs are usually the most popular. Probably look at Vorshlag (who can also probably set you up with a sleeve kit) or Ground Control. I run the GC Race plates on my Bimmer. They're well built.

 

Sleeves and springs can be found on Koni True Choice's website. You'll have to do some measuring to get the right sized sleeve kit. The other good thing with a sleeve kit is that you can now corner balance the car, which is extremely important. Ride height is going to be determined by spring length and is probably going to be a bit of trial and error.

[Dujo]

I'm not sure if I've made this clear, but you guys rock. Thanks for helping make all this clear and sharing all your hard earned information. Much appreciated!

[whitetiger]

How does messing with the rear track width of the car affect the AWD system?

 

it wont. only wheel diameter changes affect the system if all 4 are not the same.

 

messing with the rear track will aid in squeezing wide wheel/tires combos in while still being able to get the camber and toe you want. you also can fine tune the placement of the camber arc in the wheel well.

[Dujo]

Okay, this is continued from the North East spotted thread so we're not cluttering that up with autocross. http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5445869&postcount=9660

 

Bucko had asked me what wheel/tire combo I ended up getting. So this is it:

Prodrive GC-06H, 17x8 +43 w/RE71R 245/40R17

 

I do feel like this is a fairly aggressive fitment, but I've still got my fingers crossed that I can make it work with only a fender roll and no fender pull. Hopefully.

 

Wheels and tires are mounted. I need to put them on the car again and look at 'em more closely, but I believe they do not touch the suspension as is, but there is a fair bit of poke out the fender well.

 

I was sort of planning on doing KTA124 in the rear, which is the toe arms, but as I understand it, that actually pushes the bottom of the tire out, rather than bringing the top in, so that may not actually do what I want it to. But, hopefully that will get the job done, but I admit it's gonna be close. I do have a spacer (1/4 or 3/8ths, can't remember for sure) I can run on top of the Koni/Epic setup in the rear. Hopefully that combo will mean no pull, but I admit I'm not 100% confident that I won't need more than just a roll.

 

For the front, I had been thinking that I needed to find a camber and perhaps even caster adjustable top hat that fits the oem style Koni/Epic combo I have. I think that both Cusco and Racecomp Engineering make something to that effect. If that won't work, as a back up, I believe Whiteline makes a top hat that is not adjustable, but that does increase both caster and camber a fair bit.

 

I had not really been considering an H&R eccentric camber bolt as I assumed that would be gratuitous considering the top hats. How much different is the H&R as compared to the stock eccentric bolt? Is it really enough difference to warrant purchase. Or perhaps only if I really need it to dial in the numbers we're talking about. (-2.2F, -1.7R)?

 

 

And I'm sorry, but did you just run the EXACT same time on a run in the morning and in the afternoon?

 

And wow, Mark's run was really pretty amazing, right? Did you see how he used the shift back into 2nd again to his advantage coming off the 'pin and going into the R-hander. He managed to work the shift in right as he needed to scrub off speed to take the right hand turn. Heading in to the taxiway, he ran than whole big left hand as more of a sweeper taking it a fair bit wider than I did, but carrying way more speed. On the taxiway exit, he was bang on where I thought I needed to be. Quick turn and straight out rather than making it a big sweeper to carry speed. Set up the left hand turn exit way wide to the right because the gate is so big and then HARD on the brake to make the corner hard over left to make the next few gates as straight as absolutely possible.

 

This situation actually raises a very interesting point for me. You'll notice on the entry corner, he took it wider and more like a sweeper, carrying more speed and on the taxiway exit, he was all about the short turn and the straight line drag race for more speed. Now, I've read out there somewhere on ye ole Internet that while in road racing, you often want to take a turn a bit wider on the way to the apex in order to carry more speed, but in autocross, the faster line is almost always the shortest straightest line you can put together. That for such a short distance and low speeds, it's very very difficult to carry enough speed in a wider turn to overcome the increased distance you have to travel. It looks to me sort of like Mark has done both of those things on two different turns. Is there just no true universal rule on that and it depends on the turn, or am I not seeing it right?

 

In the last part of the course, of course he was super smooth on the slalom and he set the finish up right by going straight at it on the angle while risking sliding out left into the left side wall of cones over finish. I was too chicken to take that full throttle straight at the angle and I would always take it wider to the left to hit it more square to the finish line. I think you did what I did in the first one and you did what he did in the second one.

[whitetiger]

you need top hats and the kta124 either way. a fender lip roll will be fine otherwise, but shhot for more f/r camber, like -3.0F and -2 to -2.5 rear. vorshlag makes a nice set of plates for subaru, and RCE resells them.

[Dujo]

I like your camber numbers better whitetiger.

 

http://www.dpccars.com/gallery/var/albums/Extreme-Camber/Extreme%20Camber%20-%2013.jpg?m=1379116946

 

[whitetiger]

^thats just broken.

[Dujo]

But look at the trophies!

[whitetiger]

car show trophies are a dime a dozen. its like 5th a place trohpy from the novice class in autox.

[Dujo]

Even I have one of those. And a class winning pint glass for the day when I was the only car in my class. And a few 2nd place lowballs that they were handing out as leftovers at the end of last year. My trophy collection is meager but strong.

[ehsnils]

I like your camber numbers better whitetiger.

 

http://www.dpccars.com/gallery/var/albums/Extreme-Camber/Extreme%20Camber%20-%2013.jpg?m=1379116946

 

Doing that to a car makes it look like a cartoon car.

[solidxsnake]

I was looking into the SCCA appendices, and it looks like the LGT is still allowed in ESP:

 

Doesn't matter for me much since even (apparently) my JmP VF46 Custom automatically throws me into SM, but perhaps that may help make you a little more class-competitive!

[whitetiger]

on page 182 of the current rules - http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files/scca/downloads/000/016/498/2016-6-27_Solo_Rules_reduced2.pdf?1468011553

 

Legacy turbo 2004-2014 in ASP and then on page 188 it shows the Legacy GT (no mention of turbo though) 2005-2012 in ESP

 

Strange......