Setting up the LGT for SCCA Classes (D Street -> STX -> ASP -> SM)

[Dujo]

So I just started autocrossing this season with the New England Region SCCA and I am hooked like it's my new drug. I've been having a ton of fun and while I totally realize that the best way to go faster is to start by tightening the nut behind the wheel, I can't help but be constantly thinking about setting my car up a little better for the SCCA classes. My 10 year old wagon is no longer my daily driver and I've got a bit of wiggle room to set it up how I like, but I need to figure out how I'd like to set it up. Chances are that I won't be making any major changes this season, but I can't help considering where I'm going.

 

I don't want to step on the toes of the STU -> STX thread as that has some great discussion in it already, but I wanted to start up a thread that was a little more focused on the details of what the best setup choices are in each class and also perhaps what's the best choice of which class to set up for.

 

At my first event, I admit I was somewhat surprised to learn that what I thought was my relatively lightly modified stage 2 LGT was actually classed together in ASP with widebody STIs running on coilovers and race slicks. It's the boost tune and the aftermarket intercooler that put me there I think. So this thread is for discussion of specific mods and how those mods affect your SCCA classing. Now, I've read the 2015 rule book a few times, but that doesn't mean I'm not still confused about some things and I'm still not sure where to go.

 

This thread is for anybody who wants to discuss their own setup and where it fits and where they want to take it, but since I'm starting it up, let's take a look at my street car setup as an example.

 

Stage 2 4th gen 5MT LGT wagon:

Cobb Catless Uppipe

Cobb Catted Downpipe

Borla 2.5" cat back

Process West Top Mount Intercooler

Grimmspeed EBCS

Stage 2 boost corrected tune by BrenTuning makes 278awhp and 334awtq on a Dynapack dyno

Stock VF40 turbo (though not the original ... this is a hybrid frankenturbo between my VF40 wastegate and sigmafour's center section.)

Clutchmasters FX350 with WRX single mass flywheel

Koni shocks, front and rear (stock camber adjustments only)

Whiteline front and rear sways

AVO rear swaybar mounting brackets

Stoptech brake rotors with HPS Hawk pads (stock LGT brake caliper)

Prodrive P1 18x8 wheels wrapped in Michelin Pilot Super Sports (Treadwear: 300)

probably a couple other minor things I'm forgetting

 

Now, there are going to be 2 sides to this coin as though it is not my daily driver, nor is it going to be a strict autocross queen. This isn't the right car for that as it is too heavy and not well matched in class against it's competition. I'm shooting for a better class setup, not a perfect one. This car will still need to be a slave to some street duty and to some of the pecadillos of the LGT.

 

D Street is long since gone for me, but anyone is welcome to discuss what's on the cusp of D Street and STX. Now, I think that boost tune and intercooler put me in to ASP, but most of the rest of it will keep me in at least STX. It is my understanding that it is possible to get a tune in STX, but that tune cannot include any increased boost. Well then, how about the bellmouth downpipe? Is that also a street prepared mod? Could you even run an aftermarket bellmouth downpipe with an STX compliant tune?

 

So, one of my options is to try and go down to STX, which sounds like I need to go back to a stock intercooler and the stock downpipe and get retuned like that. Are any of those other mods going to keep me out of STX? I admit that I'm having some aesthetic difficulties with making my car slower in general, even if it becomes relatively faster in a slower class, but if it's the right choice, then it's the right choice.

 

Another wrinkle I'm considering is that let's just suppose that I might have an extra set of forged 17x8 Prodrive GC-06H wheels by Rays that don't have any tires on them at the moment. Now, I could get some Bridgestone RE-71s with a 200 TW rating in a 215 or 225 and have a dedicated set of autocross wheels that are similar to my street tires, though I'm sure they would be much better than my 4 year old PSS. Or I could get some 235 or maybe even 245 r comps and stay in ASP. Still gonna be way outclassed by the widebody stis, but it will still be a pretty big leap forward compared to the PSS.

 

Final major issue to discuss is what to do about the VF-40 I'm running. I admit all of the blown turbo talk here on the forum makes me nervous. But here's the rub, if I swap my turbo and go stage 3, that puts me right into Street Modified, where my problems get worse, not better. But I really don't want to spend any money on a brand new VF-40. I might consider a VF-46 as I believe that would be class legal in ASP as it was on the same generation of the LGT (07-09), but again I'm not thrilled about wasting that kind of money on an OEM turbo. Should I just keep what I've got and run it til it blows? Don't love that idea. What about a JmP rebuilt VF-40? Is that even ASP compliant, as I don't think you can even monkey with the turbo internals in ASP.

 

At any rate, I've got some more questions about differentials and whether they have to be part of tranny swaps and swaps from the same line in the classing appendix as other models. Ie at what point can I start running sti diffs as well as some suspension bushing and alignment modifier bits, but we'll start here and go from there.

[whitetiger]

Missed this thread, so i figure id respond, even though it’s late.

 

The mod path for the classes is pretty straight forward through ASP for the LGT. It was easier when the LGT was in ESP, but the path is the same. Understand that most full prep nationally competitive cars in SP are trailer cars, not because they can’t drive on the street, but because failure is much more likely to happen if raced extensively. I personally had at least 1 catastrophic drive line failure every year i had my ESP legacy. Lucky for me i live close to the event site.

 

The ultimate goal, given the class allowances, is to maximize traction, and minimize weight (car under 3150lbs or less) while making as much power as possible with the stock turbo(VF40 or VF46. no turbo mods of any kind are allowed). So other than a full stage 2.5 car with all supporting bolt-on’s (TMIC/I/H/TBE), you need to think about tire fitment. The goal, is to run a 285/30/18 Hoosier A7 on as wide a wheel as you can fit and have full tire clearance for the suspension to work. So 1st thing is to get a set of fender flares and commit to having your fender highly modified to get tire clearance. Having your fenders cut is not too pretty which is why finding a set of real flares is a godsend.

 

Once your wheels and tires fit, you can move your way inboard. For brakes, lines and pads such as Hawk HP+ are all you really need. If you have money to spend, anything to make your brakes lighter will be helpful. Suspension components should be the spec.b aluminum arms front and rear (weight savings)all around with whiteline front LCA bushings for more caster. In the rear, you will absolutely need the whiteline KTA124 camber and toe arms. This will aid tire fitment and allow you to precisely align the car to perfection. You will need a roll center/bump steer kit to keep the arms in a decent position on a properly lowered car. The whiteline one is good, but IIRC GTspec makes one that compensates even more for lower cars.

One trick I always thought about doing but never go around to doing was combining the KTA124 camber arms with the KCA399 bushings that go in the rear upper arms. The bushing effectively makes the upper arm length adjustable, so combine that with the adjustable length of the KTA124 lower arm and you effectively have control of the track width of the rear of the car. What you would then do is use this to have greater control of the tire fitment while still being able to fully adjust rear camber.

 

Next you look at coilovers. Here you need a coilover which can lower the car as must as possible while still keeping an adequate amount of suspension stroke. You will need, at minimum, a double adjustable coilover shock(independent rebound and compression adjustable) and, if the body is not fully threaded, you will have to work with your CO supplier to make sure the body is short enough to allow you to lower the car properly while prevent the piston from bottoming out. Spring rates will largely be driver dependent, but a good place to start is 700F/500R. A lot of work will be needed, to get the shock length, damping and spring rate right for the car. Prepare to spend $4k on proper shocks. A good middle ground would be the MCS 2WNR. A high quality shock with the right adjustments, but without a remote reservoir to make installs and mounting easier. If you are going all in though, Penske is the king. I could talk a lot more about shocks, but it’s not necessary for now. Ther alot of other brands that are quality as well, but none of the ones being directly marketed on this site will cut it.

 

Getting power down: So at this point we have full core suspension work done and the right tire compound as much contact patch as we can muster. Now we have to apply that power and differentials are where it’s at. In the past, it may have been best to have the spec b 6mt in the car due to strength, but since the development of the Moore blast plates for the 5mt, i think now the 5mt is the best choice because its lighter, and all you really have to handle is stage 2 power and, in the case of Pro-solo events, launch shock forces. To supplement the 5mt, you need a front differential. The choice here is the JDM helical for the 5mt for perfect fitment or a Quaife ATB or even a PPG helical. You could do a 1-way clutch type, but it will make you under-steer some in tight corners, which is all autox is anyways. In the rear, that stock VLSD won’t cut it. I’ve blown 3 OE diffs, and yes that’s on stage 2 power. Here is where you want a clutch diff. It is my experience that the LGT chassis can 3-wheel under braking and hard cornering, cocking the inside rear wheel. So unless you developed your CO kit perfectly, you are going to have to deal with this problem, and having a torsen in the rear wont help when one wheel is off the ground. Only a clutch type can maintain power delivery here. The 1.5-way cusco diff for the R160 rear end is the likely choice here, though there are many other brands too. As for the center diff, there is only one clear choice, and that is the PPG torsen center. BTW since we are doing trans work, good time to put a HD clutch in. the 6-puck ACT is great for taking launch abuse on a regular basis.

 

So having done all this the last step is weight reduction. Up to this point, even with all the stuff we did above, the car is still easily street-able. It’s the weight reduction that can ruin this so you have to decide how much you want to do. I did essentially no weight reduction in my ESP LGT 5mt and the car weighed 3277lbs on the scales with 1/4 tank. So one of the easiest things to start with is the installation of aftermarket fixed seats. By doing that you would get the car under 3200lbs, or very close. A lightweight racing battery is an easy 20lbs off the car too. Next is the removal of the A/C system and components. This, understandably, will be disagreeable to some, especially if you are driving the car otherwise. An A/C delete will get you right close to 3150lbs though. After that, the removal of the radio/speakers or just a lighter aftermarket head unit will help a little. All of the plastic underbody parts of the car can be removed too, but that will make the car more vulnerable to winter/wet weather driving.

 

So if you do all of this the car will be 95% full prep competitive. I did leave some things out like suspension/chassis bracing and sway bars. The bracing is not necessary unless you feel you need it since it adds weight, and bars are to be done after you get a baseline feel with the stock bars. I won’t get in to too much suspension tuning theory, but if you picked you spring rates right, only small changes in bar stiffness will be needed. If you buy the biggest bar you can find early, you may find that you need less bar, but you are on the softest bar setting and disconnecting it is too loose. So best to add bar in small increments as you sort out car balance.

 

Another thing i left out is aero. SP allows for front splitters and rear spoilers. the requirements are very very specific to the design and shape, so you will have to contact a fab shop to make parts for you as per the rulebook. No, you cannot just go and buy a gigantic ricer wing. Done right, aero can adds noticeably more grip to the car, yes, even at 40-60mph on a autox course.

 

Ill stop here, for now.

[Dujo]

Thanks Whitetiger. I was hoping you and some others might notice this eventually.

 

I'm not ready to commit to the full ASP prep including fender flares. I totally hear where you're coming from on what I need to get anywhere close to a competitive car in ASP, but I'm just not ready to give this car over to full-time autox and all that that implies, trailer included. I really don't want to cut my fenders.

 

Truth is, there's a guy in my local ASP in a black STI with 315s on 10.5s with flares and full 3 puck race clutch with launch control and a/c delete and years and years of seat time that I'm unlikely to ever catch. However, I do like measuring myself against him as a good way to gauge my own improvement and I also just like tinkering with my car to make it go faster (and I really don't want to go back to stock downpipe and intercooler to get down into STX). I've pretty much resigned myself to driving an underprepared, outclassed car in ASP for a while. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to go faster (without bumping to SM).

 

Alright, let's start with no turbo mods allowed. This raises an interesting question I have about the rules and how they work in regards to same manufacturer. So, I recall reading somewhere that in SP, it is legal to use parts from another car, as long as it's on the same line in the Appendix as the car in question. Well, the STI and the Legacy GT appear to be on the same line in the ASP appendix. That sounds to me like I should be able to use any part the sti uses, including the sti turbo (VF-52) and the DCCD diffs, for example. However, in practice, that doesn't seem to be the case which tells me that I'm misunderstanding the rules on this. What am I missing?

 

However, assuming my interpretation above is incorrect and I really only can use a VF-40 or a VF-46, what are people actually doing about the fact that the VF-40 has some reliability problems? Completely aside from autocrossing, my stock turbo is starting to have some shaft play. Regardless of going faster, I'm starting to feel like something needs to be done for the sake of reliability and safety of my engine overall. However, a turbo swap (say a Dom1.5) puts me in to SM, where I don't want to go. It's not making a lot of sense to me to spend the money on a new VF40 for no actual power improvement. I'm just having trouble reconciling the cash outlay for a reliability improvement with no performance improvement at that price point ... even though I think that reliability improvement is becoming necessary. I've also considered sending out my turbo to JmP for a rebuild, but I'm starting to think even that would be outside the rules for ASP. Or is only outside the rules if I get upgraded internals? If I get a stock turbo rebuilt with stock parts (which is also a little silly at that price point, but more tolerable than a brand new one), is that still class legal?

 

On to wheels and tires ... like I said, I'm not willing to cut fenders at this time, but I am totally trashing my street tires and I will almost certainly need a new set after this season. I sort of don't want to autocross on the new street tires and in ASP, I don't have to. Since I'm unwilling to go down to STX and I'm unwilling to cut my fenders, I'm considering the compromise of getting r-comps on lightweight wheels. Since I won't be getting any where near 285 (let alone freaking 315 that sti guy has), I'm hoping to get something like a Hoosier A7 in 245 or maybe even 255 with a fender roll (on a set of 17x8 +43).

 

For brakes. I'm gonna have to do something. I've got some sticky calipers that don't always completely let go. There's a really nice set of Brembos for reasonable money (alright, ridiculous money, but reasonable for Brembos), on the forum right now. But after seeing you say lighter brakes, I'm leaning away from that folly a little bit, but I'm not sure where else to go. What's lighter than the stock brakes? Certainly not any big brake kit. How do you lose weight in the brakes? (Note: I'm with you on the pads and lines. I'm already there.)

 

As for suspension ... well I've got some money to spend for fun, but I just cannot justify the price of good coilovers to myself. I've tried shitty coilovers and I'm not going back to that crap either, so I'm gonna have to live with being underprepared in the strut department and call my Koni/Epic combo good enough. But I do have some used LCAs (sorry, steel, not aluminum) with the Whiteline Roll Center Kit (lower ball joint and tie rod ball joint), Whiteline antilift kit (that rearmost bushing with that funky offset center that I think is the one you're talking about for improving caster), and also that third cylinder-shaped bushing is yellow and polyurethane, though I'm not sure of it's name or kit number. (Note, these LCAs are currently in my garage, not on the car, though I'm hoping to mount them and get an alignment soon to hopefully solve a suspension noise I've got going on right now). I'll look at some of those other kits you mentioned.

 

Diffs is an interesting issue too, but again, I'm not sure what's legal here an what's not. Can I run the sti diffs? Is that too much of an oversimplified question regarding this issue? Also note, I just had the ACT 6-puck installed last week to replace the FX350 I toasted a month ago.

 

For sway bars, I do already have the Whiteline matching bars installed. Until last week, I had them set up in the more "stock" configuration. In other words, I had the rear bar set to it's softest setting and the front bar set to it's stiffest, so it still had some tendency toward OEM understeer. However, I will point out that in an effort to locate my recent suspension noise, I switched the front bar to the softer setting and replaced my done-for Kartboy front endlinks back to OEM links ... and had my very first spin on course on Sunday. Didn't even change the rears to stiffer. Guess I'm gonna need some practice on this set up before swapping the rear setting.

 

All for me now too. We'll get in to aero and adding lightness and some of that other stuff a little later.

[whitetiger]

Thanks Whitetiger. I was hoping you and some others might notice this eventually.

 

I'm not ready to commit to the full ASP prep including fender flares. I totally hear where you're coming from on what I need to get anywhere close to a competitive car in ASP, but I'm just not ready to give this car over to full-time autox and all that that implies, trailer included. I really don't want to cut my fenders.

 

Truth is, there's a guy in my local ASP in a black STI with 315s on 10.5s with flares and full 3 puck race clutch with launch control and a/c delete and years and years of seat time that I'm unlikely to ever catch. However, I do like measuring myself against him as a good way to gauge my own improvement and I also just like tinkering with my car to make it go faster (and I really don't want to go back to stock downpipe and intercooler to get down into STX). I've pretty much resigned myself to driving an underprepared, outclassed car in ASP for a while. But that doesn't mean that I don't want to go faster (without bumping to SM).

 

Well then you are stuck. you are gonna find that the desire to go faster is quite irresistible, and slowly watch your car turn in to a full prep car

 

Alright, let's start with no turbo mods allowed. This raises an interesting question I have about the rules and how they work in regards to same manufacturer. So, I recall reading somewhere that in SP, it is legal to use parts from another car, as long as it's on the same line in the Appendix as the car in question. Well, the STI and the Legacy GT appear to be on the same line in the ASP appendix. That sounds to me like I should be able to use any part the sti uses, including the sti turbo (VF-52) and the DCCD diffs, for example. However, in practice, that doesn't seem to be the case which tells me that I'm misunderstanding the rules on this. What am I missing?

 

When they say the same line, they mean model line. so you are free to take any stock turbo from the 4th gen LGT line. this means you are limited to the VF40/46. No way around this. you put any non-stock turbo in there, even if you just coat a housing, and you are in SM.

 

However, assuming my interpretation above is incorrect and I really only can use a VF-40 or a VF-46, what are people actually doing about the fact that the VF-40 has some reliability problems? Completely aside from autocrossing, my stock turbo is starting to have some shaft play. Regardless of going faster, I'm starting to feel like something needs to be done for the sake of reliability and safety of my engine overall. However, a turbo swap (say a Dom1.5) puts me in to SM, where I don't want to go. It's not making a lot of sense to me to spend the money on a new VF40 for no actual power improvement. I'm just having trouble reconciling the cash outlay for a reliability improvement with no performance improvement at that price point ... even though I think that reliability improvement is becoming necessary. I've also considered sending out my turbo to JmP for a rebuild, but I'm starting to think even that would be outside the rules for ASP. Or is only outside the rules if I get upgraded internals? If I get a stock turbo rebuilt with stock parts (which is also a little silly at that price point, but more tolerable than a brand new one), is that still class legal?

 

sorry, again you are stuck. you cannot use a JMP turbo. the VF40/46 must be absolutely bone stock, including the wastegate. I personally put a VF46 in since the are alittle bit more reliable, and my 40 was leaking oil a little. but that is as much as you can do.

 

On to wheels and tires ... like I said, I'm not willing to cut fenders at this time, but I am totally trashing my street tires and I will almost certainly need a new set after this season. I sort of don't want to autocross on the new street tires and in ASP, I don't have to. Since I'm unwilling to go down to STX and I'm unwilling to cut my fenders, I'm considering the compromise of getting r-comps on lightweight wheels. Since I won't be getting any where near 285 (let alone freaking 315 that sti guy has), I'm hoping to get something like a Hoosier A7 in 245 or maybe even 255 with a fender roll (on a set of 17x8 +43).

 

you can run a 245/35/18 on a 18x8.5 +48 with a good fender pull. On the same wheel, you can run a 255/35/18 as well but you may need a 5mm spacer in the rear. running hoosiers require a good amount of camber, more than -3 deg. so you wil need the whiteline KTA124, camber plates and anything else that will help to get those wheels to fit. making the suspension angles as adjustable as possible is the key to everything working well.

 

 

For brakes. I'm gonna have to do something. I've got some sticky calipers that don't always completely let go. There's a really nice set of Brembos for reasonable money (alright, ridiculous money, but reasonable for Brembos), on the forum right now. But after seeing you say lighter brakes, I'm leaning away from that folly a little bit, but I'm not sure where else to go. What's lighter than the stock brakes? Certainly not any big brake kit. How do you lose weight in the brakes? (Note: I'm with you on the pads and lines. I'm already there.)

 

Brembos are not necessary. If the brakes arent noticeably lighter in weight, you dont need them. the proper pad is all you need. HPS are not good enough, HP+ is the right pad for this car on r-comps.

 

As for suspension ... well I've got some money to spend for fun, but I just cannot justify the price of good coilovers to myself. I've tried shitty coilovers and I'm not going back to that crap either, so I'm gonna have to live with being underprepared in the strut department and call my Koni/Epic combo good enough. But I do have some used LCAs (sorry, steel, not aluminum) with the Whiteline Roll Center Kit (lower ball joint and tie rod ball joint), Whiteline antilift kit (that rearmost bushing with that funky offset center that I think is the one you're talking about for improving caster), and also that third cylinder-shaped bushing is yellow and polyurethane, though I'm not sure of it's name or kit number. (Note, these LCAs are currently in my garage, not on the car, though I'm hoping to mount them and get an alignment soon to hopefully solve a suspension noise I've got going on right now). I'll look at some of those other kits you mentioned.

 

the shock is the single most important part of this setup other than the tire. Do not skimp here. the kind of coilover you need will be custom made to spec for you. As i said earlier, look at the MCS 2WNR. call up Vorshlag and ask them what it would take to get a set made for you. Sticking with off the shelf shocks/springs is a poor decision. the forces generate by r-comps will make your body roll over hard if you dont have the right stuff.

 

Diffs is an interesting issue too, but again, I'm not sure what's legal here an what's not. Can I run the sti diffs? Is that too much of an oversimplified question regarding this issue? Also note, I just had the ACT 6-puck installed last week to replace the FX350 I toasted a month ago.

 

you can use any diff you want that fits in all 3 spots. start with the front diff first. the JDM helical sold by rallispec is the best/easiest unit to put in. you will need the trans opened to put it in though(assuming you have the 5mt).

 

 

F

or sway bars, I do already have the Whiteline matching bars installed. Until last week, I had them set up in the more "stock" configuration. In other words, I had the rear bar set to it's softest setting and the front bar set to it's stiffest, so it still had some tendency toward OEM understeer. However, I will point out that in an effort to locate my recent suspension noise, I switched the front bar to the softer setting and replaced my done-for Kartboy front endlinks back to OEM links ... and had my very first spin on course on Sunday. Didn't even change the rears to stiffer. Guess I'm gonna need some practice on this set up before swapping the rear setting.

 

All this is meaningless once you put on the r-comps. Once you run hoosiers, all the car dynamics will change. Those puny bars wont help you if you dont get coilovers with the right rates. if you are serious about ASP, time to start getting serious about coilovers.

 

 

All for me now too. We'll get in to aero and adding lightness and some of that other stuff a little later

.

[StoplightAssassin]

OP, what's your overall goal? Win the class, win FTD, PAX, just have fun with what you have, etc?

[Dujo]

I'm not really looking to win anything. I don't have nearly the seat time to come close to some really quality drivers that we have in our region. That guy in the black ASP sti regularly finishes above our class, beating several SM cars and such (in raw time no less). The LGT just really isn't the right car for a good competitive run and I'm a long way from being experienced enough to compete, even if I had the perfect car, set up perfectly. I want to have fun and go faster and improve and stay reasonably within the rules and learn about my car and how to make it faster and how to get faster at autocross in general.

 

Obviously, seat time is the best answer to going faster. But since I can't autocross every day of the week, I gotta daydream about something when it's not autocross day.

 

Note: Ran with the local Miata club today for the first time. They do it a bit different with a more laid back style. I had a horrible morning this morning. Had my first off course ever this morning and then did it again twice! First time, I got lost. Second and third, I way over drove the course. Put together some decent runs in the afternoon though. I seem to be pretty consistently 15 seconds off the fastest time of the day (all classes) and about 10+ seconds off sti guy. Today was no different. Must go faster!

[StoplightAssassin]

Cool. If you want to do this the right way, buy a miata or e36. Parts are cheap and so are tires if you stick to touring.

[Dujo]

Like say, an '04 or '05 NB Mazdaspeed MX-5 Miata in Velocity Red Mica for 8-9 grand. Like I said, gotta daydream about something. Still a couple years away from my roadster though. The LGT will have to do as a pretender for a while.

[StoplightAssassin]

The suspension and tires you'd need for your LGT will be about the cost of a cheap AX car. 5k can net you a pretty decently set up 325i or Miata

[whitetiger]

+1 about the miata. i got out of my LGT when the getting was good.

[whitetiger]

I seem to be pretty consistently 15 seconds off the fastest time of the day (all classes) and about 10+ seconds off sti guy. Today was no different. Must go faster!

 

This is due to you not running r-comps and not having proper coilovers. you should be within 3-5 sec of him on a partially prepped car.

[whitetiger]

Like say, an '04 or '05 NB Mazdaspeed MX-5 Miata in Velocity Red Mica for 8-9 grand. Like I said, gotta daydream about something. Still a couple years away from my roadster though. The LGT will have to do as a pretender for a while.

 

you can buy a NC for the same price and be faster than a mazdaspeed NB.

[Dujo]

The NC is ugly. And I can monkey with the power on the turbo car. CSP, here I come!

[Dujo]

This is due to you not running r-comps and not having proper coilovers. you should be within 3-5 sec of him on a partially prepped car.

 

Yeah. He basically said to me that r-comps were worth about 5 seconds on their own. I definitely feel like I'm starting to get the point where I'm overdriving my tires. I've got Michelin Pilot Super Sports (which is a 300 UTQG it turns out) in 225 on a 18x8 Prodrive P1 wheel. These were the summer street tires I've had on there for about 3-4 summers too when I just decided to go autocrossing with what I had. So they're getting a little old too. They don't look done in treadwear depth, however, I have worn the outside edges pretty heavily this summer. I definitely need some more negative camber too as I'm sure I have a terrible alignment right now. It took me a couple events to where I really first got to feel the car slide a bit. But now I feel like I'm almost sliding too much in places. I'm sure that I could clean that up a lot with a little better aiming and cleaner (read earlier) setup on those turns. Sliding is fun. But my guess is that too much is not fast.

 

I also PAX really poorly on autocross days being so under-prepared in class. Or so I tell myself when making up excuses in my head for why all those stock Miata drivers are out-paxing me and all the STRs are beating my raw time. It's just 'cause the car is too slow, right?

[StoplightAssassin]

I'd really caution against jumping right to R-Comps. They're easy to chew up if you over drive your car.

 

R-Comps are usually about 2 seconds faster compared to the fastest summer tire over a 60 second course. Granted, you have not so great AX tires, so you're probably closer to 3 seconds slower by tires alone...but this all assumes tires of the same exact size on the same car, same driver, setup etc.

 

The best thing you can do right now is to just AX as much as you can. Use video to analyze your runs. Video don't lie!

[Dujo]

What's the right way to do video? I've been thinking about that aspect too, but I haven't bought anything yet. GoPro3? Is the Garmin good enough? Better to get one really good camera or 2 or 3 cheapo ones?

 

Does it matter in terms of expandability if I want to add some run analysis software somewhere down the road in few years like Trackmate or some such or something that includes live heat analysis on the tires or some such. I've looked at that stuff a little bit too, but I admit I haven't really researched anything to know what to do about that.

 

What about camera placement? Inside the car attached to the headrest? On the outside of the windshield, high center above the rearview mirror? Drivers side rear window? One on top and two pointing backwards at the rear tire to see how close I'm coming to backsiding those cones (probably out of frame). This weekend, I saw a guy in a Miata that had a 4 foot tripod mounted to his rear decklid in place of a wing.

[StoplightAssassin]

There's a bunch of camera and data acquisition options.

 

Look into Solo Storm. It's expensive, but worth it. You'll want an external GPS receiver to get the highest sampling rate. Harry's is a decent cheap option. Trackmaster is awful.

 

A GoPro is ok. I wouldn't go crazy getting the high end models. I have a GPH3 Black edition, and the battery dies within 20 minutes. I have the external battery packpack and the thing is impossible to get charging, and once it does it doesn't take the charge. There's a lot of action cams.

 

Some days I just use the regular video camera app on my phone.

 

As for camera placement, over your left shoulder outside the car is good, but I feel over top of the rear view mirror on the roof is the best. It'll give you a better course perspective than you have from the driver's seat and you can still tell that you're getting close to the cones.

[whitetiger]

The NC is ugly. And I can monkey with the power on the turbo car. CSP, here I come!

 

the MS miata is BSP i think

[whitetiger]

There's a bunch of camera and data acquisition options.

 

Look into Solo Storm. It's expensive, but worth it. You'll want an external GPS receiver to get the highest sampling rate. Harry's is a decent cheap option. Trackmaster is awful.

 

A GoPro is ok. I wouldn't go crazy getting the high end models. I have a GPH3 Black edition, and the battery dies within 20 minutes. I have the external battery packpack and the thing is impossible to get charging, and once it does it doesn't take the charge. There's a lot of action cams.

 

Some days I just use the regular video camera app on my phone.

 

As for camera placement, over your left shoulder outside the car is good, but I feel over top of the rear view mirror on the roof is the best. It'll give you a better course perspective than you have from the driver's seat and you can still tell that you're getting close to the cones.

 

 

 

 

Solostorm is amazing for what is it. You dont need a gopro if your phone is good enough and you mount it properly. paired with the qstarz 1htz gps and a OBD2 BT module you get great data.

 

here is a sample of what a full SS setup looks like. -

 

Im using a gopro for the main vid with the phone front camera turned on for the PIP. solostorm does all the video processing to make this vid.

[cBax]

When they say the same line, they mean model line. so you are free to take any stock turbo from the 4th gen LGT line. this means you are limited to the VF40/46. No way around this. you put any non-stock turbo in there, even if you just coat a housing, and you are in SM.

 

I have no plans to autocross my OBXT, but was having this conversation with a fellow autocrosser that runs a LGT with a VF52 in ASP. I told him it puts him in SM, then he and others managed to convince me that "the same line" literally means the same line in the appendix.

 

As in every single one of these models can do update/backdate swaps.

Impreza WRX (all incl. STI) (2002**-15***), Legacy (Turbo) (2004-14), & Forester XT (2004-14).

 

Even that is confusing the way it is formatted to fit in a column.

 

Is it literally just the same models that can swap parts? Is there anywhere that I can confirm this?

 

Ive played in SM, STF, STC, STU with several cars and never really paid much attention to whats allowed in SP until getting my G35 a couple months ago. It will land in ESP. This discussion doesnt really affect the G35, but the Subaru's update/backdate allowance in SP is HUGE if you are really allowed to pick from all those cars listed in the appendix.

[StoplightAssassin]

Looks like somebody just copied and pasted from the fasttrack When they put it into the rules. I don't see how they would allow that.

[whitetiger]

I have no plans to autocross my OBXT, but was having this conversation with a fellow autocrosser that runs a LGT with a VF52 in ASP. I told him it puts him in SM, then he and others managed to convince me that "the same line" literally means the same line in the appendix.

 

As in every single one of these models can do update/backdate swaps.

 

 

Even that is confusing the way it is formatted to fit in a column.

 

Is it literally just the same models that can swap parts? Is there anywhere that I can confirm this?

 

Ive played in SM, STF, STC, STU with several cars and never really paid much attention to whats allowed in SP until getting my G35 a couple months ago. It will land in ESP. This discussion doesnt really affect the G35, but the Subaru's update/backdate allowance in SP is HUGE if you are really allowed to pick from all those cars listed in the appendix.

 

they are wrong. line = model line. always has. your friend just wants to get his ass whooped less.

[cBax]

I'll bring it up. The general local club consensus is that it is that "line" in the appendix. We are not a SCCA club, but follow SCCA classing. But we also compete with other clubs that are SCCA in the region and they also let him run in ASP.

 

I just hate looking like a weeny, but I honestly feel like I try too hard to be compliant for others that are decently competitive in local PAX to be fudging the rules. Hell, I started 1/2 my runs with TCS on at the last local event with the G35 because I re-installed the yaw sensor to be ESP legal. lol

 

When I had my Evo, the difference in pax between ASP and SM wasnt enough to de-mod, so I just stayed in SM. Pretty much the same now with my G35 in STU vs ESP.

 

edit:

C. Equipment and/or specifications may be exchanged between different years and models of a vehicle if:

(a) the item is standard on the year/model from which it was taken, and

(b) the years/models are listed on the same line of Appendix A, Street Prepared Classes.

 

the way it is worded certainly supports the fact that you can put a WRX turbo on a LGT in ASP. If it said the word "Trim" instead of "Model", Id agree that it's not allowed. But it specifies that you can swap parts from different models (WRX vs LGT) and they are listed on the same "line" in Appendix A.

 

thoughts? Why does the book have to be so confusing?

[Dujo]

Note: this is something bucko said in another thread, but it's more appropriate here, so I just quoted it over here.

 

If I can offer a recommendation, don't go to R comps. When it rains, you're screwed, and you absolutely can't drive them on the street in any capacity. I suggest buying the bridgestone RE-71R in whatever size will fit well on your second set of wheels, and feel free to pick my brain on what size that is as well. The stones are the best street tire in the rain period, and they actually were faster than hoosier wets at a prosolo event earlier this year. Best wet grip + one of the two best dry tires = the tire to have. I swap mine on the night before autox, drive to the event on them, then drive home and swap them off. Makes my mornings less stressful at the event as well.

 

So, this is actually not the worst idea I've ever heard. In fact, it's kinda growing on me. Here's the thing, I really feel like the 3-4 year old 225 Michelin PSS I have just isn't enough tire. I still have tread left on them, so they aren't worn through yet, but they are just really easy to break them free and they just aren't very consistent during the course of the day.

 

Now, can I solve some of those problems by correcting air pressure and wetting tires at an event? Probably. And next year, I think I'm gonna start adding some of that to my routine as I've finally gotten more comfortable with my time in grid. But I still think I need a better tire. Starting my autocross career in ASP is making that a little interesting though. I'm sort of thinking that the number 1 improvement that can be made to a car's handling is going to be better tires. And since I'm already in ASP (and there to stay for a while anyway), why wouldn't I just get the best tire that I am allowed to get in class? (ie. Hoosier A7) But here's the thing, you are at least the fourth person with way more experience than me to tell me not to get r-comps. That's advice I'm starting to have trouble ignoring.

 

It's still not entirely clear to me why that is the case. Obviously, the wet traction is a pretty obvious easy reason. I've just been spoiled this year. The only time I ever saw any wet pavement of any kind this year was that last event of the year (Team Challenge). I think I've been really lucky this summer with the amazing weather we had. Also, It seems like it might stunt my growth as a driver. I really feel like I learned something about counter-steer to catch over-rotation in the last event. That learning process is gonna be influenced by the extreme grip of r-comps. It might just even be too much grip for the car, especially since I am not planning on upgrading my Koni/Epic(Eibach PK) combo to high quality coilovers any time soon. I've heard I could end up rolling the suspension over or even bending a subframe connector in the worst case and even in the best case, I'll probably prematurely destroy the tires themselves.

 

Let's assume for a moment that I'm convinced I shouldn't get the A7 and I don't want to run on my current PSS, the question becomes, what should I get? And for how long am I gonna have to live with my choice?

 

I hear you on the RE-71Rs. From everything I've read, that tire is really is a step above its other comparable competition and if I get a 200 treadwear tire, that's clearly the one to get. But keep in mind, I'm technically not limited to a 200tw tire in ASP. Is there something between the RE-71R and the A7, like perhaps some 140tw street tire of some kind that might make a little more sense than either one of those? Also, are we just assuming that the RE-71R is going to remain the dominant 200tw tire next year? And the year after that?

 

As far as how long they'll last, I assume the RE-71R should be good for at least one full season between 10-20 events. Will they last two seasons? Will they last longer than I want to run them? Seems like I could always sell them if they last longer than I want to use them, but I probably shouldn't get an uncommon size if that's the case.

 

Thoughts?

[bucko3the7man]

Didn't see this thread when it first came out, but here I am now!

 

I put about 180 runs on my RE71Rs this year and they're pretty much toast. That's pretty much only driving to and from events on them, plus the event itself. Whitetiger and StoplightAssassin are both really great guys to listen to on autocross, they're both really fast and have committed pretty serious builds on their LGTs for autocross. They also both race something else now.

 

My recommendation is still to go with 245 RE71s on your spare set of wheels and call it a day. Swap that sway bar setup to be more rear heavy as well. They'll definitely last you this year, and some of next year as long as you store them in a temperature controlled environment during the winter. I'd just wait and see what the tire to have next year is, there was talk of maxxis coming out with a decent tire, but we'll see what happens with that.

 

The reason I (and probably many others) are saying to avoid R comps for now is that you're still learning, and purple crack grip will teach you bad habits compared to street tires.