Subaru contact says performance Legacy still coming

[dimil]

[quote name='cotmfk']There seems to be no actual power difference between the 2.5 GT and the 3.0R. Just 2.5 T versus 3.0 NA. I think that's very weird. Why would you offer two of the same cars with the same amount of power, but different engines? It seems too close to me, like the models would cannibalize each other's sales.[/quote] This is U.S.A. some people here prefer displacment over Forced Induction. Same with wagons here. It's all about reputation in this country. So it's one of the few places that it would work.

[MSB]

[quote name='dimil'][quote name='cotmfk']There seems to be no actual power difference between the 2.5 GT and the 3.0R. Just 2.5 T versus 3.0 NA. I think that's very weird. Why would you offer two of the same cars with the same amount of power, but different engines? It seems too close to me, like the models would cannibalize each other's sales.[/quote] This is U.S.A. some people here prefer displacment over Forced Induction. Same with wagons here. It's all about reputation in this country. So it's one of the few places that it would work.[/quote] Just what I was going to say, but I can't type fast enough.

[SUBE555]

What you guys are only looking at is horsepower. You forgot to mention the torque. 250lb-ft for the turbo model, 219 for the H6 model. ;) That's a big difference if you ask me, well particularly that the EJ25 Turbo starts at that (less any reflashes. ;)) The USDM H6 engine was tuned to hit that peak HP number as torque was sacrificed a little compared to other countries that make around 243-245hp and about 224lb-ft of torque. Just some food for thought. :)

[agctr]

What ever Subaru decide to bring out, 2.5 or 3.0 the STi version will have to have more pep to out do them all. It just amazing why STi have'nt launched any plans to slide the 2.5 donk into the WRX especially in the Asian/Pacific region of the world. Could the 2.5 manual version of the GT be used primarily to get the USA and Euro market on board? Whatever the reason, its all good from where I stand. I just cant wait for the 2.5 manual version to come down under. To jump in on the seat debate, has anyone seen the seats now offered in the Porsche GT2 2004? Wow they very functional and look darn sexy. Price is another issue though........

[cotmfk]

[quote name='SUBE555']What you guys are only looking at is horsepower. You forgot to mention the torque. 250lb-ft for the turbo model, 219 for the H6 model. ;) That's a big difference if you ask me, well particularly that the EJ25 Turbo starts at that (less any reflashes. ;)) The USDM H6 engine was tuned to hit that peak HP number as torque was sacrificed a little compared to other countries that make around 243-245hp and about 224lb-ft of torque. Just some food for thought. :)[/quote] Good point, Sube. I hadn't known the torque figures for the car, instead I just assumed it was at least close to 250! Honda and Toyota started the trend of high HP low torque, and it seems more manufacturers are following. It's such an annoying idea! Torque is what makes the car accelerate quickly, HP is for top speed.

[SUBE555]

They always said horsepower sells cars and torque wins races. :) It's VERY true, particularly in the U.S. That and anything with greater numbers, 6MT instead of 5, 6cyl instead of a good 4, etc, etc is why a Boxer6 still is a good idea for the USDM.

[dimil]

[quote name='SUBE555']What you guys are only looking at is horsepower. You forgot to mention the torque. 250lb-ft for the turbo model, 219 for the H6 model. ;) That's a big difference if you ask me, well particularly that the EJ25 Turbo starts at that (less any reflashes. ;)) The USDM H6 engine was tuned to hit that peak HP number as torque was sacrificed a little compared to other countries that make around 243-245hp and about 224lb-ft of torque. Just some food for thought. :)[/quote] You know that and I know that. So many people who care about performance. Experiment: Go to local grocery store or supermarket and ask 100 people that come in to the store and ask them a question on what kind of car they drive and what HP number and torque of that car. I wonder if 20% of people will be able to answer that question. So it does matter, the questions is to whom?

[apexjapan]

[quote name='cotmfk']Honda and Toyota started the trend of high HP low torque, and it seems more manufacturers are following. It's such an annoying idea! Torque is what makes the car accelerate quickly, HP is for top speed.[/quote] Because market researchers quickly discovered that nearly the only power figure that people brag about is horsepower. Torque is nearly never mentioned. Also not discussed is the actual power curves. Even having high hp and torque numbers doesn't actually mean that much, if they are both up high and there is no hp/torque before 4500rpm. Then there is power/weight ratios. I don't know how many times I've heard X is superior to Y because it does have more hp, yet X weighs 4000lbs while Y weighs 3000lbs, negating any power advantage. In general, I tend to vote towards the 4-cylinder motors in Subaru's lineup over the H6's. The 4's have simply had more development time, and they are able to get a lot more out of them at this point in time. That may change in the future, but the here and now is what I worry about. Cheers, Paul Hansen

[agctr]

I went to the Melbourne AutoSalon on the weekend which was fantastic. There were plenty of WRX's totally done up including (apparently) the world's first convertible WRX which is something to be seen. The whole car has been gutted and the drivers seat is in the middle, very classy! Anyway, there were a few Liberty B4's there which looked fantastic. Very stock on the outside but sensational under the skin. I spoke to a few of the Subaru guys onsite and they hinted at the GT STi version but couldnt confirm anything (of course). Im sure when the STi GT version does come down under, it will surprise a lot of people especially in the EVO camp and in the dyno shoot outs. The manual edition of the GT will be coming down under this year although a true confirmation date has not been given. I will keep you all posted as more information comes to hand. :o

[SteVTEC]

[quote name='apexjapan'][quote name='cotmfk']Honda and Toyota started the trend of high HP low torque, and it seems more manufacturers are following. It's such an annoying idea! Torque is what makes the car accelerate quickly, HP is for top speed.[/quote] Because market researchers quickly discovered that nearly the only power figure that people brag about is horsepower. Torque is nearly never mentioned. Also not discussed is the actual power curves. Even having high hp and torque numbers doesn't actually mean that much, if they are both up high and there is no hp/torque before 4500rpm. Then there is power/weight ratios. I don't know how many times I've heard X is superior to Y because it does have more hp, yet X weighs 4000lbs while Y weighs 3000lbs, negating any power advantage. In general, I tend to vote towards the 4-cylinder motors in Subaru's lineup over the H6's. The 4's have simply had more development time, and they are able to get a lot more out of them at this point in time. That may change in the future, but the here and now is what I worry about. Cheers, Paul Hansen[/quote] Damn straight! :) Here is some dyno analysis that I did of a Nissan VQ30DE (190hp 95-99 Maxima) vs a Toyota 1MZ-FE (194hp - Camry) and a Honda J30A1 (200hp 98-02 Accord V6) - all 3.0L V6 NA engines. Even though the Honda tops the others in terms of peak horsepower above 5000 rpm, it has so little usable torque below 4k that it's just ridiculous. It feels and performs more like a 4-cylinder in normal driving. [url=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stevtecv6/dynos/NHT_30V6_HP_MD_j30eststock.jpg][img]http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stevtecv6/dynos/NHT_30V6_HP_SM_j30eststock.jpg[/img][/url] [url=http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stevtecv6/dynos/NHT_30V6_TQ_MD_j30eststock.jpg][img]http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stevtecv6/dynos/NHT_30V6_TQ_SM_j30eststock.jpg[/img][/url] The Honda guys didn't like me very much after that. But there was really no basis for the flames because the dynos were all legit and I've personally owned vehicles with all three of those engines so I wasn't being biased either. I don't really think Toyota has been trying to "trick" people with the high-HP low-TQ "game". Honda has been the primary culprit on that. There really haven't been a lot of high-revving Toyota engines in the US. The only US car with VVTL-i is Toyota's 2ZZ-GE (co-developed with Yamaha) and that's only in the Celica GT-S and a version of the Matrix. Honda's list of high-hp low-tq engines is endless. I'm happy to see that Nissan has been taking a "don't care" approach to it all and giving people what they need - torque! They do have a variable lift high rev system called NeoVVL, but only in Japan. The SR20VE. They also have a crazy turboed version of it, the SR20VET - the first engine with both variable lift valve timing and a turbo. I forget the engine but it's listed in the engine matrix at FreshAlloy.com. Paul might know too. The other thing that marketers (and kids) love to brag about is horsepower-per-liter. I find it funny how this is what all of the marketers and kids talk about. Yet in design documentation by the same companies written by the engineers themselves and published in SAE papers, the engineers all brag about TORQUE-per-liter. LOL Steve

[speedmonkee]

Waflowers: Any updates on the BIG BOY? Just curious. Now, that the LEG GT's are almost here, I am in quandary - just wondering if I should hold out til the end of the year to wait for the BIG BOY.

[SUBE555]

Waflowers has been abscent for a bit, likely work is, well, overworking him. :P As noted before, at this point, I can't imagine it will be much more than an H6 version, and from hearing no other reports of this, it could have been something, but Subaru generally isn't known for pulling new models in mid-model year.

[Drift Monkey]

Keep waiting everyone...more selection for me! :twisted:

[agctr]

The Big Boy theory, hmmm bit like the big bang theory, we sort of know about it but we dont really. By the amount of interest just in this string, Im sure Scooby would be more than happy with the interest the STi is creating.

[gtguy]

But typically on these boards, there are lots of talkers and few buyers. And don't forget that Subaru has to sell enough to real people to make it worthwhile. The Legacy/Outback is the volume car, that they will be less-inclined to mess with. This is why rumors of twin-turbo H6es with 350hp and stuff like that aren't likely to happen, particularly when you consider that the STi history has been braking and suspension mods, with some power upgrades that aren't all that significant. The USDM STi got 300hp, but the rest of the world had 280 or so anyhow, so it wasn't a huge leap. Kevin

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='gtguy']The USDM STi got 300hp, but the rest of the world had 280 or so anyhow, so it wasn't a huge leap.[/quote] "Rated at" 280hp.

[waflowers]

[quote name='SUBE555']Waflowers has been abscent for a bit, likely work is, well, overworking him. :P[/quote] You could say that. I'm tired of working 7 days a week, 13 or more hours a day. Not so long ago I got to the office at 10:30am Sunday, left at 7:10am Monday, grabbed a bite to eat, 40 minutes nap, shower and changed then back to the office. We're looking for another person to hire for the software department ... finally! No new news except reiterations of "it is real" and "it will be here ... eventually". I was contacted less than 2 weeks ago to see if I wanted the #1 Legacy GT to arrive at Mastro. I've had $1000 deposit with them for over a year now. My sales guy (Sean) told me I could take my pick of the first to arrive, but that I'd be happier if I waited a bit longer (know what I really want in a car). I chose to wait. Curious that a sales guy would discourage a sale, isn't it? P.S. After today I'll probably drop out of sight again for another month of insanity at the office. Hopefully things will finally calm down in July. If not, this pace will (literally) kill me; I'm not a young guy like most of you on this forum anymore and the hours and stress are taking their toll. :(

[speedmonkee]

Waflowers: Thanks for the response. That is very curious why a salesman would tell you to wait. That's all I needed to know! Keeping fingers and toes crossed. J

[gt_ltd]

I emailed SoA and got the following reply today: :( Thank you for visiting the Subaru Web site and for your interest in Subaru products. I am not aware of any new 'high performance' Legacy coming in September of 2004. As far as I am aware, the 2005 Legacy models, including the 2005 Legacy GT Limited models, are the only Legacy models we will be offering this year. While we do not provide future information, we would have heard, including all of the media by now, of a new Legacy model due to arrive in a couple of months. Thank you for the opportunity to be of assistance. If you need any future assistance, please feel free to contact us. Best wishes, <name withdrawn> Subaru of America, Inc. ----------------------------------------------------------- YOUR ORIGINAL MAIL: I was about to order a 05 Legacy GT Ltd. until I read that there is a 'high performance' Legacy coming around Sep 04 (the site quoted a SoA rep. source). I will wait if it is indeed coming in 2004 (I have already waited forever for the 2005 GT, so a few more months won't hurt much), otherwise I will order a GT Ltd. right away. Could you please tell me whether 'good things happen to whose who wait?' I don't want to get a GT Ltd. now and be happy for only a few months, and then regret for years.

[Dr. Zevil]

I have though all along how stupid SOA would be to offer that car this year. They can't downplay the all new legacy with a performance version of itself.. the GT IS thier performance version for this year. You might see a spec-b version next year but I would not hold my breath from anything with the name STi on it. They don't offer one overseas yet.

[akm3]

The purpose of the STi was to reinvigorate the Subaru image/word of mouth and get Subaru back on the cover of car magazines, like the WRX did. The WRX went through a fad phase. Then the STi. Now the Legacy GT, and in a year or two when the furor dies down, there will be something 'new' to entice us. Will it be a higher trim level Legacy? I can hope so. It would be to sell more Legacies just like STi was to sell more Imprezas. If STi is plastered over it tastefully and comes in WRB with Brembos, BBS wheels, sportier seats that also say STi (again tastefully), 6 speed, SpecB bumpers (or a US rated equivalent 'look at me' bodykit upgrade), and a slight power increase (280/280 or so) it will be PERFECT for *me*. I don't think it would make sense for Subaru to have TWO STi's that put out 300/300 hp. A Legacy STi competes in my mind too much with an Impreza STi. UNLESS: They made the Legacy STi wagon only :twisted: -Allen

[Dr. Zevil]

[quote name='akm3'] UNLESS: They made the Legacy STi wagon only :twisted: -Allen[/quote] Wouldn't that be something.....

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='akm3']I don't think it would make sense for Subaru to have TWO STi's that put out 300/300 hp. A Legacy STi competes in my mind too much with an Impreza STi.[/quote] I does to me. THe two cars are marketed for different groups and therefore, will probably sell to different groups.

[akm3]

If a Legacy STi with all the go-fast Impreza bits and bling came out, who would buy an Impreza STi? I mean, at that point what possible reason does the Impreza have to exist? The only thing I could think of is if the Legacy STi is so much more expensive then the Impreza STi that they compete in completely different demographics. Personally, I'm torn between an Impreza STi or a Legacy GT. A Legacy STi would end the internal struggle. -Allen

[gt_ltd]

I dunno, but I won't buy an Impreza STi anyway (at least for now) since (1) I don't like the interior quality, (2) I am pretty sure it will attract some retarded kids to street race me, (3) it is kinda small, (4) insurance cost is crazy, and (5) it will get vandalized easily. I know an ex-WRX wagon owner who owns a last-gen. ///M3 and a new 325xi, even though he likes the Impreza STi, he won't buy one for pretty much the same reasons stated above ($31K doesn't seem to be an issue for him). We are both interested in the new Legacy GT. I'd have got an Impreza STi when I was still in college, but now it is just "too much" for me as a daily car. I am 27 and single :), btw. [quote name='akm3']If a Legacy STi with all the go-fast Impreza bits and bling came out, who would buy an Impreza STi? I mean, at that point what possible reason does the Impreza have to exist?[/quote]