Sgt.Gator Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Another one of our local builders in the NW, RalliTek/PRE in Portland, suggests stock internals for an 18G. Upgraded internals starts with a 20G. http://rallitek.com/blog/turbochargers-for-every-need-in-stock/ Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 It's like 50/50 upgrade the pistons or not. Wish it was an easy call. I guess just pick a builder you trust and go with their recommendations. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 I can see the logic in buying a shortblock and swapping out the pistons (only) for forged. No forged rods, no bearings, no deciding on ARP studs vs OEM..... This is the longest YouTube video I've ever watched but worth the time if you've never done this work before, even if you never intend to do the work yourself: Subaru Mike's Video Subaru STI Short Block Assembly: Subaru Cylinder Head Removal Subaru Cylinder Head Installation: Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzr750r1 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 DD. Stock crank and rod rebuild with forged pistons is how I'm going in. Remains to be seen what comes out. Mikes block assembly video convinced me I can do this... It's not much more than two jetski motors on a common crank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merc6 Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 3 minute Youtube video made tinting windows look easy AF, I barely made though 1 window before I got a nice serving of cognac and never tried again. I though about the piston only option as well since there isn't any splitting of the halves. 2005 Satin White Pearl Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Unlimited 5EAT (Project Car) 2019 Agate Black Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (DD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 22, 2015 Share Posted January 22, 2015 I really don't understand the logic behind using OEM pistons, that have a known problem at stock power levels, to produce even more power. I would much rather take the relatively minor trade-offs of a quality forged piston (paired with a good machinist of course) and have to rebuild a "tired" engine down the line than try to recover a catastrophic failure. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzr750r1 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I was under the impression the EJ257 had forged pistons... Am I wrong? Are they cast with just a different compression ratio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I was under the impression the EJ257 had forged pistons... Am I wrong? Are they cast with just a different compression ratio? Same pistons. Different dish (-24 vs -27) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzr750r1 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Same pistons. Different dish (-24 vs -27) . Same pistons except different. The dish volumes are -22cc (EJ257) and -24cc (EJ255). I have actually measured this to confirm. The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightmaresmk Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Get mahle or wossiner 4032 is a great dd material for forged if it's set up right. 2618 is not. Cosworth uses a 4032 variant and are stronger than 4032 but do not expand as much as 2618. The fabled ej207 V7 has forged 4032 slugs from the factory and those motors love boost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted January 24, 2015 Author Share Posted January 24, 2015 Still going back and forth between options as I do more research. I think I've all but decided that going with an OEM short block w/OEM pistons is just not a good idea anymore based on how I'm using the car now. This leads me to either rebuild my motor or look at built short block options. I'm currently leaning toward built short block options more than rebuilding based on the costs associated with both. The biggest variable I'm finding now is that they are not all the same process. I'm finding mildly built short blocks that are essentially stock blocks with forged pistons dropped in and/or built short blocks that are essentially the same thing but they're built up and spec'd to ensure really proper piston/wall clearances in each individual cylinder rather than just dropping in forged units and calling it good. If I'm going to go forged on this, I'm not entirely comfortable with the "drop in option" as it seems a bit half ass to me. More phone calls next week to various companies around the states to get the nitty gritty on how each builds their motors. Ack, I'm getting a headache... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Still going back and forth between options as I do more research. I think I've all but decided that going with an OEM short block w/OEM pistons is just not a good idea anymore based on how I'm using the car now. This leads me to either rebuild my motor or look at built short block options. I'm currently leaning toward built short block options more than rebuilding based on the costs associated with both. The biggest variable I'm finding now is that they are not all the same process. I'm finding mildly built short blocks that are essentially stock blocks with forged pistons dropped in and/or built short blocks that are essentially the same thing but they're built up and spec'd to ensure really proper piston/wall clearances in each individual cylinder rather than just dropping in forged units and calling it good. If I'm going to go forged on this, I'm not entirely comfortable with the "drop in option" as it seems a bit half ass to me. More phone calls next week to various companies around the states to get the nitty gritty on how each builds their motors. Ack, I'm getting a headache... Good luck, been there, done that. The built shortblock with clearanced cylinders has worked well for me. Keep talking to shops until you find one that is listening to you and wants to build to your needs. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Good luck, been there, done that. The built shortblock with clearanced cylinders has worked well for me. Keep talking to shops until you find one that is listening to you and wants to build to your needs. Boxkita does one of your threads outline all the issues you had with the used engine you bought? My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Boxkita does one of your threads outline all the issues you had with the used engine you bought? I don't think I ever detailed all the issues, mostly to protect the shops involved. Both of whom have changed their practices to avoid the issues I had. However, the jury is still out, so to speak, regarding how I acquired that used engine off CL. I hope someday karma finds that ahole seller and gives him his just due. I got fleeced by a bait and switch posting and made it worse by not taking along someone who knows about subie short blocks. He advertised a Cosworth block. I should have known at that price it was too good to be true. :spin: So my shortblock ended up getting rebuilt from scratch with the cylinders being clearanced a bit for the projected high rpms I was running. Whether the block was delivered with the wrong size pistons or the honing was incorrect was never resolved. To do over again, knowing what I know today, I'd find a race shop that dealt in Subaru, find the tech who actually knew, from experience, how their motors did on the track; then put together an engine to match my needs. Or buy a crawford/cosworth/rallitek longblock. In PNW, track cars fall in 3 categories: HPDE, ICSCC ST class, ICSCC SPU/SPM class. For HPDE, you need something you can DD as well as have fun on track. Max tq/hp is not really important, however, having a smooth power band so you don't get nailed by the torque spike in a turn is good. A suspension that is somewhat compliant on the road, yet soaks up the high compression of the track. $1000 c/o work pretty good for this. Stock brake calipers with centric premiums and track pads with front ducts are enough. Suspension is specb bits with whiteline bushings. Tires are Michelin Supersports/Dunlop Direzza for 1 wheelset solution, or cheap tires plus BFG R1/Hoosier R6/Toyo RA1 shaved on lightweight wheels (Enkei PF01 is a good choice). 225/40/17 on 17x8 would be a solid tire/wheel combo. Especially if you were staying with the stock interior. Engine is OEM plus upgrades targeted at heavy track duty. Crawford AOS v2 w/catchcan or similiar. Avoid the GS AOS. Remove AC belt and/or AC. Upgrade OEM intercooler. Deep oil pan with windage tray. Heavy duty/high quality oil and with blackstone analysis and OCI based on track days. When your engine blows up (its a matter of time), you rebuild to the entry level for ST class. Because you know that's what you really want to do... For ST class, Sgt.Gator's thread is a good starting point. However, from the HPDE build, you would step up to 3-way (compression, low-speed & high-speed rebound) c/o with custom valving and springs. You'd do the shock & spring dyno to be sure you ended up with matched sets. Brakes would be 4-piston with race pads and rears upgraded to 2 piston. Brake ducting is required with hoses to disk, caliper, and hub. SpecB underpinnings including Strizzy's axle upgrade. Engine would be custom build targeted at high rpms, hard shifts (high shock loads), high heat. Forged pistons, swaintech everything, closed/semi-closed deck, benson cylinder upgrade, balanced to the last atom, etc. Cage, harness, seat, safety gear for walking away from a 170mph crash. For SPM class, imagine your car as a vague outline. Now imagine your 2.5L engine classed as a 4L engine because you have a turbo. Now, imagine $250k of engineering marvels inside that vague outline. That's SPM class. You have the only AWD car in the class. Everyone is putting down 400hp. If you can afford this, let's talk. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 BTW, if you haven't read this thread yet, http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/turbo-failure-wiki-173358.html, its worth your time Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 So things are progressing on the rebuild. Actually not really calling is a rebuild as I decided to just go with a new mildly built short block. It shipped out from Rallispec today. I ended up going with a bit of a hybrid in the end. Its a cross between their basic "value" street short block, (Mahle 4032) and their next step up, the "standard" street short block. They were out of the Mahle pistons and the backorder was taking too long, (they don't use off the shelf Mahle and have custom specs for them), so they cut me a deal on the Cosworth 4032 pistons from the "Standard" street block. Everything else is spec'd from the "Value series". OEM crank, Manley rods, King XPG bearings. After looking around at a few local options I decided to stick with my Cobb facility here in Portland. They've never done me wrong. A few more details from the saga: Cobb's machine shop found that all my cams are bad. Every lobe but 2 has some degree of flatness to it. I was going to keep my stock buckets but now those are done too due to the cams so thats another $450 on top of about $800 for new cams. So that sucks. I was going to replace the valves with GSC Power units anyway as their not that expensive in the total scheme of things. Upon further inspection on tear down Cobb found that my Perrin Up pipe is cracked, (9 years old) and the Cobb catted DP, (9 years old), is done too. The DP itself is fine but the cat is done and they've found that running the stock turbo variants with a catless DP has caused boost creep issues so I'm in for both a new UP and DP. So that sucks. I talked with the machine shop and Cobb about my valve train issues and was informed that everything they found was not due to negligence on my part or just blindly beating on the car. Stuff just wears out over time and 9 years modified with 7 of them on track just finally took its toll. The strange thing is that will ALL of this stuff wrong the car drove its last track day without blowing up and the power felt relatively the same as it always has in recent years. Obviously its been slowly going downhill but it wasn't overtly noticeable. As usual my budget has gone thru the roof on this build. I'm not too surprised. It always goes this way The bright spot in all of this? I was informed by my accountant that I've been overpaying my taxes the past 3 years. The amount of my refund? Pretty much what my final bill out the door will be. Love me some good karma points! A few pics from today at Cobb. All my crap stacked up on the shelf, my engine bay missing a motor, and I noticed Gators Legacy was in getting an external wastegate so I snapped a shot of that too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I think you should take the "Turbo doesn't do well with a catless DP" as an excuse to upgrade the turbo . Leave the DP alone. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 LOL, when will the financial hemorrhaging stop?? I'm actually considering going ahead with a Koyo radiator, ($350) and swapping out my single gauge cubby pod to a dual so I can add a Defi oil pressure gauge, ($250), next to my boost gauge. Someone stop me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzr750r1 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Stay on target.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schumacher Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Nice progress! Keep at it and the car will reward you... hopefully. I'm hoping this doesn't happen to my XT, has 372k km on original motor and turbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 LOL, when will the financial hemorrhaging stop?? I'm actually considering going ahead with a Koyo radiator, ($350) and swapping out my single gauge cubby pod to a dual so I can add a Defi oil pressure gauge, ($250), next to my boost gauge. Someone stop me... Radiator upgrade? Yeah, you should delete that as it has no added benefit. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Why Oil pressure with boost gauge? Both seem like the most useless gauges if you can only have 2. Water temp & oil temp. Or get a dual gauge like this - https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=1095 When your oil pressure drops alarmingly, you're pretty much toast already. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Why water temp? Isn't that already built into the thermostat? My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Nice progress! Keep at it and the car will reward you... hopefully. I'm hoping this doesn't happen to my XT, has 372k km on original motor and turbo. 372k wow. Just be prepared it will happen soon. At the very least turbo should be checked and probably replaced. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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