Sgt.Gator Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 If someone could really prove to me that I could put down 300whp all day long with a good tune, (or say 325whp, I'll most likely bump up to something 18G-ish at some point and swap to headers), then I'd be the first on line for that OEM block. I just haven't found that proof yet you know? My Silver Eagle Race Car: Stock Internals. 18g. 1000cc Injectors. FMIC. Up and down pipes, and 3" exhaust, but stock exhaust manifolds <for now>. At 16 psi, which is as far as my 18g wants to go, 308 WHP/ 309 TQ on a Mustang dyno, so around 330-335 WHP on a Dynojet. 3 Years of racing, including multi hour Grand Am Cup for year, and Time Attack for a year professionally, and a full season of amateur sprint and endurance races. Compression is good. Burns a quart of oil every race weekend, sometimes almost two quarts. Engine runs fine. However that's probably because I don't run pump gas, so my pistons never see knock. I blend in Torco Accelerator in every drop of fuel. It figures out to about 103 octane. I think you should pick your target WHP and plan the build from there. At the level you quoted above a stock short block will be fine. And probably a lot less headaches! I'm going to a Blouch Dominator 1.5 XT-R that should get me to 375 AWHP on a Dynojet. I'm staying with my stock internals motor. When it fails I may or may not go forged. The only reason I'll go forged is I may have a deal on a forged longblock that's cheaper than a new OEM shortblock, so I'll use it. The plan is to have one motor in the car and one motor fully built and ready to go in at all times. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Damn you Gator for placing doubt in my mind might give you a call today for a quick ramble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Comparison, this is my tune from '09, same dyno as you Gator. This was when I switched to the vF52, fuel pump, and 740 injectors. I had Tim give me a Torco tune for the track and same as you, ALWAYS run a can for each tank on track days...15 and 18 psi torco track-5.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Comparison, this is my tune from '09, same dyno as you Gator. This was when I switched to the vF52, fuel pump, and 740 injectors. I had Tim give me a Torco tune for the track and same as you, ALWAYS run a can for each tank on track days... Forged Pistons are better at surviving knock. Most people won't be consistent with blending Torco or buying high octane race gas, therefore they need forged. However that is a band aid because even forged internals will fail with enough occurrences of pre-detonation. So why not call Tim and Brandon and ask them their opinion for your build? Especially if they are going to be doing the tune, you might want to involve them now. So far they are telling me to stay OEM shortblock and Torco.....and they have done thousands of tunes over many years from all over the collective Cobb tuner system. They are the experts, so I follow their advice. And one last comment. Unless you are actually racing, and not just HPDE, why do you need 50WHP more? It will cut a second a lap? Is it worth the risk? You can probably pick up that second with other mods like tires that are not going to blow up the engine. When you install a cage and go full into racing, then the cost, risk, and rebuilding, moves to a whole new level. 50 AWHP becomes important. And you can figure rebuilding or at least "refreshing" your engine every two years. Forged makes much more sense in that environment. Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Comparison, this is my tune from '09, same dyno as you Gator. This was when I switched to the vF52, fuel pump, and 740 injectors. I had Tim give me a Torco tune for the track and same as you, ALWAYS run a can for each tank on track days... You are your own BEST Example! 320 Ft Lbs of AWDTQ on a Mustang, that's like 350 TQ on a Dynojet! And you car has lasted thru how many years of tracking at stage 2 on the OEM block? 9 years !!! I'd also point out that "popped" is not your engine. Worn out, yes, but popped implies catastrophic and expensive failure. There's a lot of forged engine builds here and NASIOC that would love to say worn out after 9 years of tracking vs POPPED after 3 months. Don't mess with the formula, it's working great for you! Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 You are your own BEST Example! 320 Ft Lbs of AWDTQ on a Mustang, that's like 350 TQ on a Dynojet! And you car has lasted thru how many years of tracking at stage 2 on the OEM block? 9 years !!! I'd also point out that "popped" is not your engine. Worn out, yes, but popped implies catastrophic and expensive failure. There's a lot of forged engine builds here and NASIOC that would love to say worn out after 9 years of tracking vs POPPED after 3 months. Don't mess with the formula, it's working great for you! Shit, the way I'm planning on rebuilding, I'm shooting for half that, or sooner if I can kick it. 60k, max, and I'm doing another shortblock - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I admit, my initial call was to just put a new OEM short block in, refresh the heads and call it a day. This was based on my argument that I have driven the car pretty hard for many a track season and really had no troubles. I'm partly chalking that up to a really good tune by Tim Bailey at Cobb/Surgeline so many moons ago. With 9 years of testing, you've proven your case. Adding Gator's experience to the mix, just confirms your data is not isolated. purpose of this car has radically changed for me since I originally bought it in late '05. I was ok with that since the whole plan was to eventually make it a track specific car. I have no intention of ever seeing the car as a daily driver again, hell everything aft of the front seats is gutted. So, you've decided to make a racecar of your wagon. You've been making incremental changes each year to improve it. Then your engine failed. Welcome to me in early September 2011. Looking back on ~$100k (1 major build on the wagon plus innumerable expensive learning experiences, buying miata race operation, race fees, etc) in 4 years and from pricing out turning my wagon into an ST leader; you should think hard about whether your wagon is the ideal car to be putting more money into as a fully fledged race car. I talked to a lot of people before starting my track wagon build. Unanimously, every single person said to buy an already built car and start racing it. Then rebuild the wagon to a street car. Looking back, had I done that, I'd have started racing a year earlier and likely have enough money to drive full seasons instead of 2 weekends. Check this thread, http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/lgt-race-car-sale-234822.html , and see if Robert's car is still for sale. He has a ton of spare parts, wheels, and a fully functioning very successful race car with completely fresh c/o and a newish engine rebuild. I dunno, it just doesn't seem like a good idea to put a car in that kind of environment and expect stock components to hold up. Because essentially thats what I'm doing I'm abusing it well beyond typical design parameters. 9 years!!!!! I think you proved the design parameters. Next topic. The biggest variable is just what you mention BarManBean, it scares the hell out of me and thats build quality. It just comes down to who is putting the thing together, its just huge. Outback motors, when I went there, may have been at the top of their game. Recent stories of LGTs out of their shop have been less than stellar workmanship. Even my wagon's current status is likely due to poor workmanship on their part, I'll find out soon. However, when I had my motor done, they were the easiest to deal with of all the shops I talked with. And they had a good rep with tuning. The point being, the quality of the shop & their knowledge of building motors to do what you are going to do with your car is important. Actually critical, unless you want to pay them to learn how to build a race motor. If someone could really prove to me that I could put down 300whp all day long with a good tune, (or say 325whp, I'll most likely bump up to something 18G-ish at some point and swap to headers), then I'd be the first on line for that OEM block. I just haven't found that proof yet you know? You're going at this wrong. The HP/TQ #'s don't matter as much as where they are available on the rpm band as matched to your gear box. The wagon would out pull many higher hp cars because I had power on tap coming out of the corner and it was available all the way to redline. The Viper would still catch me at the end of the straight. 50 additional WHP is alot. More power, more heat, more stress on rotating components, more brakes, more cooling, more stress on you. If you haven't been data logging your laps at PIR & ORP, you're screwed at this point. As you'll literally be guessing about where you are slow. It may be that you are slow getting on the power coming out of the half pipe because you're low on the rpm band and there's no TQ (from your dyno it looks like you have 1500rpm of usable TQ), so you bog down waiting for power. Get with your shop & talk about what your goals really are. Again, buying a purpose built racecar is the right thing here... So why not call Tim and Brandon and ask them their opinion for your build? Especially if they are going to be doing the tune, you might want to involve them now. This ^ So far they are telling me to stay OEM shortblock and Torco.....and they have done thousands of tunes over many years from all over the collective Cobb tuner system. They are the experts, so I follow their advice. And one last comment. Unless you are actually racing, and not just HPDE, why do you need 50WHP more? It will cut a second a lap? Is it worth the risk? You can probably pick up that second with other mods like tires that are not going to blow up the engine. Swap the block out replacing the things that broke and go back to status quo. When you install a cage and go full into racing, then the cost, risk, and rebuilding, moves to a whole new level. 50 AWHP becomes important. And you can figure rebuilding or at least "refreshing" your engine every two years. Forged makes much more sense in that environment. After 9 years of standing on the sidelines, step up. Go racing. HPDE's will never be the same. There's nothing like being door-to-door 4 wide into the right hand turn at the end of the straight (both ORP & PIR) knowing one of you is going to be digging grass & dirt out of the undercarriage. Seriously, most fun you'll ever have on the track. You are your own BEST Example! 320 Ft Lbs of AWDTQ on a Mustang, that's like 350 TQ on a Dynojet! And you car has lasted thru how many years of tracking at stage 2 on the OEM block? 9 years !!! I'd also point out that "popped" is not your engine. Worn out, yes, but popped implies catastrophic and expensive failure. There's a lot of forged engine builds here and NASIOC that would love to say worn out after 9 years of tracking vs POPPED after 3 months. Don't mess with the formula, it's working great for you! This ^ . Still, you'll be money ahead buying this car - http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/lgt-race-car-sale-234822.html You need a cage/harness/belts/fire system. It's a hobby, you need to be able to go to work on Monday. Unless you're independently wealthy, in which case, Crawford/Cosworth will send you an already built solution for a credit payment. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Go Racing! Novice schools are coming up. You can do them in a Prius (some did in my novice class). Gator might even rent one of his cars for your novice program. Heck, I'd rent you my miata. :-) Conference racing - http://www.icscc.com/novice.php Team Continental (a member of Conference) - http://www.teamcontinental.com/ Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Thanks for all the perspectives guys, I'm definitely going to expand on my options now before getting a built motor, that much you've convinced me of. You guys and your race car taunting is not lost on me, trust me. I kinda gave Gator the rundown last summer when he was prodding me to do the same. Believe me, LOVE to. But with 14 mo. old and six yr. old girls, its just not gonna happen for, I'd say, mmm maybe 8-10 yrs. Thats the thing, I'm in the sort of middle ground of ownership that I don't think a lot of guys identify with. Its not a daily driver so I can feel free to do what I want with the car but I'm no way able to truly pull it off of street legal status and actually make it a race car that has to be towed everywhere etc. This position is kind of a luxury or a curse depending on how you look at it. A middle ground that I don't see many cars in at the track. Its either a daily driven street car the really needs to go to work the next day or a full on trailer queen race car. As much as I'd love to be door to door with you guys I feel lucky that I even get to do this without getting a divorce! If I'm going racing in the future, it will most likely not be in this car and thats a long way down the road, (with the exception of joining a chump car team!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JF1GG29 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 You are your own BEST Example! 320 Ft Lbs of AWDTQ on a Mustang, that's like 350 TQ on a Dynojet! And you car has lasted thru how many years of tracking at stage 2 on the OEM block? 9 years !!! I'd also point out that "popped" is not your engine. Worn out, yes, but popped implies catastrophic and expensive failure. There's a lot of forged engine builds here and NASIOC that would love to say worn out after 9 years of tracking vs POPPED after 3 months. Don't mess with the formula, it's working great for you! Most true comment in this thread. Consider that your motor just lasted through nine seasons at a significantly higher output specification than it was designed for. That's a win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperScoob Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I've heard that the OEM oil pickups on the 06+ are very brittle, due to the way they are mounted. The earliest EJ255s have two mounting points versus one mounting point on the 06+. They are both brazed just as terribly, but the 05 has less chance to crack due to the multiple braces it uses. Why they thought it was a good idea to save a few cents on this incredibly important part in 06+ beats me. Luckily, I have an 05 or I'd already have a Killer B Pickup installed. I'm still thinking about getting one down the road regardless. Shralp, how many miles were on your motor when you found the low compression in cyl #2? I'm just curious. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Just ticked 80,000 mi. Needless to say I didn't have to drive it a ton each year while it was a daily driver and since 2012 its only seen to/from driving to the track and on track mileage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Thanks for all the perspectives guys, I'm definitely going to expand on my options now before getting a built motor, that much you've convinced me of. You guys and your race car taunting is not lost on me, trust me. I kinda gave Gator the rundown last summer when he was prodding me to do the same. Believe me, LOVE to. But with 14 mo. old and six yr. old girls, its just not gonna happen for, I'd say, mmm maybe 8-10 yrs. Thats the thing, I'm in the sort of middle ground of ownership that I don't think a lot of guys identify with. Its not a daily driver so I can feel free to do what I want with the car but I'm no way able to truly pull it off of street legal status and actually make it a race car that has to be towed everywhere etc. This position is kind of a luxury or a curse depending on how you look at it. A middle ground that I don't see many cars in at the track. Its either a daily driven street car the really needs to go to work the next day or a full on trailer queen race car. As much as I'd love to be door to door with you guys I feel lucky that I even get to do this without getting a divorce! If I'm going racing in the future, it will most likely not be in this car and thats a long way down the road, (with the exception of joining a chump car team!) At least consider a 4 or 6 point cage. If you have gutted it already, its no longer useful as DD. Adding the seat & harness will make a big difference in your comfort, too. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Gator Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Schralp I think I know what your goal is now. A dedicated track car for HPDEs....but not a full on race car. A car you can drive to the track <uncomfortably> but not have to tow. That's very cool. An LGT wagon is perfect for that because you can haul all the stuff you need at the track in the back. My .02 cent take is: Stay with an OEM block. Keep your car at the power level it has now. Throw the bucks you save into better safety gear, data logging, all that stuff. At least get a real fire resistant driving suit, socks, balaclava, shoes, gloves. You'll need them anyway when one of us asks if you can drive in a Chump race. Wear the gear at HPDEs. With data logging you can start to improve your skills and others can help you with reviewing the logs and videos. Race against yourself. Have fun and get better! When you're ready the next step is Time Attack, also known as Time Trials. Less risky than wheel to wheel but still a competitive race. To do that you'll need a cage. Unfortunately there is very little TT going on in the NW though. You'd have to cruise down to California for that. We pretty much go from HPDE to Wheel to Wheel here. When your kids are out of college and they aren't depending on Dad to take care of them anymore, then buy a used 2024 model year race car! Nothing like a race track to find the weak points in man and machine. "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Yeah Gator you pretty much summed up my situation. I agree, fire suit is definitely a good idea and I'm most likely going to get into one by the end of next season, (depending on how long this rebuild saga lasts. Obviously a cage is a good idea and Gator brought that up last season at the track. He had a good point though, its kind of an all or nothing proposition. I have a harness bar that ties the B-pillars together sitting in the garage and was talking with him about installing that once I get a proper seat in the car. He pointed out that if I do that I'm going to lose the airbags and then I'm in a car that not only doesn't have cage but also no airbags either. So you either stay stock with belts, seat, airbags etc. or fully cage up. I made a lot of sense to me. I did consider installing the harness bar just to tie the B pillars together but I really don't know if thats helping safety wise or not so for now it sits in the garage. FYI, if you guys end up going Chump Car, I'm all for it!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 harness bar vs schroff (sp) belts that hook into the stock position? belts. However, you'll still get hurt in a spin. I bought a never used fire suit last year for cheap if you are interested. Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merc6 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 I've heard that the OEM oil pickups on the 06+ are very brittle, due to the way they are mounted. The earliest EJ255s have two mounting points versus one mounting point on the 06+. They are both brazed just as terribly, but the 05 has less chance to crack due to the multiple braces it uses. Why they thought it was a good idea to save a few cents on this incredibly important part in 06+ beats me. Luckily, I have an 05 or I'd already have a Killer B Pickup installed. I'm still thinking about getting one down the road regardless. Shralp, how many miles were on your motor when you found the low compression in cyl #2? I'm just curious. Thanks! What changed as I have a 08 257 block for my rebuild? My 05 P/U tube won't work? 2005 Satin White Pearl Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Unlimited 5EAT (Project Car) 2019 Agate Black Ford Explorer XLT 4WD (DD) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nm Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Ask Boxkita (preferably via PM) about the effectiveness of the GS AOS. Hint: his is up for sale. Yeah, the crawford might be hard to get working, but at least when you do it works as advertised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Yeah, the crawford might be hard to get working, but at least when you do it works as advertised. For how much it costs in excess of the GS unit, it damn well better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrTris Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 What changed as I have a 08 257 block for my rebuild? My 05 P/U tube won't work? Shouldn't be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CloudSeed777 Posted January 20, 2015 Share Posted January 20, 2015 Shit, the way I'm planning on rebuilding, I'm shooting for half that, or sooner if I can kick it. 60k, max, and I'm doing another shortblock - http://i.imgur.com/5XzNZyd.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 This has helped me. I have a suspected broken ringland. So much back and forth on if Forged Pistons are worth it. It looks like with OPs experience and Sgt.Gators experience they probably aren't. I guess my car got 120k out of the OEMs I should probably consider keeping them in a new build. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shralp Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 I still haven't made up my mind yet due to a few reasons. I spoke with Surgeline/Cobb last week as they are one of the shops I'm looking at to do my work, (I have always gone there and obviously I respect their opinion). They feel that both Gator and I are lucky to have gone as far as we have, using our cars as we do, on stock pistons. Their belief is this - you can run all day long at our 300-ish whp levels on a stock motor with a good tune BUT the margin of safety is much more narrow than it would be with forged pistons. Put that into a track scenario and when something does go wrong, (that odd run lean event, something breaking, or not functioning as it should), and the forged pistons will be able to take up the slack much better than OEM pistons can. They also feel that its pointless to do anything else other than swapping out the pistons if I'm going to stay around 300hp to the wheels. If I was going to run this as a daily driver at these power levels I would definitely put an OEM motor back in. (but I'd make damn sure I trusted my tuner to give me a good tune). Just my .02 cents, I know there are plenty of guys on this forum that have broken a ringland on their daily drivers and swear they had a good tune so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxkita Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Voice in the wilderness, I am. I built a 7500rpm motor and then set the ecm cut at 6800. It never hurts to build to a higher bar, and lower your requirements during the tune. At 300 wtq, your limiting factor is not more power. It's getting what you have down on the pavement (instead of understeering off). There's nothing wrong with building a strong motor and adjusting the boost down to a lower level. When you're ready to have more power, you can adjust your tune to use it. Figure out your budget and stick with it. Figure you're going to upgrade suspension/brakes again. IDK how your transmission is doing, so it may be on its last legs, too. A front LSD will help alot for getting the power down coming out of corners. More power is more wear & tear - more expensive brakes & tires. /broken record Build my car Boxkita Track days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhitter Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Just my .02 cents, I know there are plenty of guys on this forum that have broken a ringland on their daily drivers and swear they had a good tune so... That's currently me. My car isn't even seeing a lot of knock but cylinder #4 is pretty toast 75 psi / 80% leakdown. My OBXT build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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