Perscitus

Not sure I understand the question FLlegacy. There is no direct correlation between weather, ambient temps and IAM.... and besides IAM changes are just a manifestation of Rough Correction Mode working on your car. There IS a direct correlation between how your global timing compensation tables are setup (stock, or tuned if tweaked) and coolant or intake temps. What (if any) compensations are applied will depend on the ambient conditions. Say its 20F outside - on cold start when your oil/coolant/intake temps are close to ambient - chances are your car will add timing so long as the coolant temp stays below whatever temp the ECT comp tables dictates that timing should be added 'to compensate' for the very low coolant temp. Or for another example, say its 85F and you're stuck in traffic and your IAT goes north of 120-140F, or that you managed to heat-soaked the engine bay in some other way (car standing after a longer drive, slower driving for extended period of time, etc). This is a very typical and common scenario. Your intake temp comp table might start to globally pull timing to account for that relatively high IAT (air entering the intake is less dense, less oxygen, timing can be pulled to help prevent knock and hit AFR targets). Remember that timing adjustments can have a far more profound effect on effective AFRs than fueling changes... the trade off is they are course, while fueling changes are fine. In practice, there is nothing wrong or bad with either compensation... or most of the compensation tables typically found in our cars' ROMs. They just make tuning a bit harder, unless some are zero'ed out (temporarily or permanently... but then typically that needs to be accounted for elsewhere in the tune changes). Timing should be added or pulled based on low/high coolant or low/high intake temp conditions and, if setup 'right' or adjusted properly -this will usually prevent IAM from dropping because global timing will be adjusted so as to prevent additional knock before IAM has a chance to drop. IAM pegged at 1 regardless of how we drive or what the ambient condition are doesn't necessarily mean the car is running optimal timing. It just means that either a. the ECU has yet to enter RC mode b. the ECU has entered RC mode, settled on an IAM of 1, exited RC and is now operating in FKC/FLKC, pulling timing based on feedback and populating the learned timing RAM table so long as IAM doesn't move or c. RC has effectively been disabled (or is setup to activate in ranges where knock is minimal) However, the ECU might have settled on an IAM of 1, because the timing maps are conservative enough to prevent most knock events. Since it (IAM) is a multiplier, this would indicate you are running max timing for all load/rpm cells, but that doesn't mean this timing is optimal, it just means its mostly knock free.

Yeah, thx fahr_side. I mentioned PKC (and its implications on tuning) in the first post, and linked to our trusty ol'RR thread on knock strategies. Thanks for sharing your insight and some extra specifics on PKC! For some odd reason I've noticed that at least a few USDM Denso-based Subarus have a Manifold Temp sensor reading when the car's equipped with a MAP sensor (makes little sense to me as to how/why, unless a temp sensor is somehow sandwiched together with the MAP, like IAT and MAF... I could never locate a separate thermistor or thermocouple in the manifold itself). The thing is this different temp reading is only reported under E-OBDII (mode 0x22), not SSM or vanilla OBDII. 2015 WRX and 2014 FXT (so likely also 5th gen Legacy DIT, Levorg, etc) have both intake temp and manifold charge temp sensor outputs as well. Under Hitachi managememt, they appear to be actively used in the ECU logic.

Sample temperature-based timing compensation tables (IAT and ECT). Note what happens when the Coolant temp is <30-50F or >230F, or when Intake temp >140F. In the case of the LGT, its very likely there is also a Manifold temp comp table (as Manifold temp would typically be > Intake temp and give a better indicator of the post-intercooler charge temp).

Base Timing Primary (Non-Cruise) Knock Correction Advance Max A And the resultant (X+X2) Total Timing table (using Base Timing Primary dimensions/axis source to fit the data)

Sample tables from a 2010-2014 Legacy ROM

... but were afraid to ask. The intention of this thread is to gather and share as much generic info as possible on Subaru's Knock Prevention Strategy, as it applies to our-gen Legacies/Outbacks and most other Denso ECU and SSMIII-era Subarus (approx. USDM MY2005 - 2014, JDM MY2004-2013). All 5th gen Legacies (2.5is, 3.6Rs and LGTs) have a very similar if not identical knock prevention logic in place. What differs from the factory is how their strategy is configured (thresholds, counters, limits, ranges, etc.)... this can change even more drastically with tunes, depending on how much or how little a particular tuner decides to change across the Knock/Timing/Compensation-related tables. It is also, at least in part, the reason why you might notice a difference in behavior of the various knock prevention modes between an LGT a 2.5i or 3.6R. Different limits, ranges, counter configuration will result in the modes acting ever so sightly or significantly different for each of our engine/transmission combos. Based on what's been discovered over the years, Denso ECU equipped Subaru's (the older 16- and current 32-bit) have a few complementary knock strategy modes (most of which we've all heard of): Feedback Knock Correction (FKC) Rough Correction (RC) Fine Learned Knock Correction (FLKC) Preemptive Knock Correction (PKC) What's important to note is that at any point in time, only one of these is ever active. The ECU switches between them so quickly that even when logging at 100Hz its sometimes hard (or impossible) to catch when it happens. ECU simulations make it easier to trace the logic, step through the code, but that's not something we care about here. The first three modes I list (FKC, RC, FLKC) are fairly well (but not completely) understood. The last one (PKC) has just recently been discovered and is not well understood at all... other than it exists and throws in a wrench sometimes (not unlike many of the defined and undefined compensation or alternate mode tables). For each mode, there are RPM and Load ranges where they can activate, deactivate or remain active once triggered (say FKC can potentially become active above 0.65g/rev but if it does, it will remain active even if load falls to 0.55g/rev, and below that self-deactivate). There are also counters that work as a function of the knock sensors (microphones/stethoscopes) that define what time-duration without knock or more noise perceived as knock that the ECU will assume is a sign of knock-free operation in each mode. Based on these the ECU will either add back or remove more timing in FKC or FLKC, raise, keep the same or drop the IAM in RC or pull some timing in anticipation of knock in PKC. Finally, there are tables that define the initial, min/max and step values for all the modes. How much timing can be pulled or added under FKC, FLKC and using what step value (say +/-0.35 degrees), by what fraction should IAM be incremented/decremented if RC decides its time for IAM to move (say 0.5, then decaying to 0.25, etc.), what value in the KCA max table will be the minimum trigger point for enabling RC (if all the other pre-reqs are met). On top of all this, we have lots of logic that can quickly muddle the water a bit. MAF scaling, MAF/MAP interaction in ECU code, resultant calculated load fluctuations, gear-changes, low-load/high-gear operation as well as high-load/low-gear operation, exceeding the load thresholds define in the ROM and knock tables on a tuned car without adjusting said tables to scale, load comp tables, maf comp tables, timing comp tables, fueling comp tables, tip-in/out, overrun, etc. Typically what happens on a Denso ECU equipped Subaru and after a battery pull or ECU/TCU reset is this: Cold start, while in OL and getting up to temp and warm idle RPM (coolant threshold), the ECU learns throttle position and idle stability, operates in FKC only if criteria for FKC are met. IAM will be at 0 at this point, awaiting conditions to set initial value. Once up to temp, typically in CL now, and once another set of criteria are met, IAM will set to initial value defined in the ROM (stock is 0, many tunes set this to 1 or leave stock). When driving, FKC will usually be triggered and active first with IAM chilling at whatever the initial value is/was. Only once the criteria for RC are met, will IAM be re-evaluated. It might move down (if initially at max aka 1) or it might move up (if initially as min 0 or <1) or it may remain the same. Typically the ECU will settle on some value it sees fit based on this initial drive, knock sensor feedback, etc. Let's assume our initial IAM was 0 and when triggered RC caused it to re-evaluate to 0.875. At this point, once the ECU is temporarily 'happy' with the IAM, it will exit RC and enter a mix of FKC/FLKC. ONLY once this initial RC mode behavior is triggered will you ever see any FLKC behavior. And from here on out, the ECU will switch between each mode as it sees fit. It might be happy with the IAM it evaluated and based on sensor feedback will only rely on FKC and FLKC (this populated the Learned Timing RAM table and effectively 'learns' to either subtract or add timing at specific RPM/load cell locations/ranges). Or it might decide that based on further driving or some transient condition, it needs to re-evaluate IAM again by re-entering RC and the whole process starts all over again. So usually, upon reset: FKC -> RC -> FLKC After a while: a mix of FKC, FLKC, RC (if needed), PKC, FKC again, FLKC again, rinse and repeat. Credit and more good info: http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html More to come...

Great write-up Joe. Just ordered both for $145 (including shipping)!

Paddle Shifter Aftermarket Mod All these will fit (I have the first set and like it), pick your poison: http://starkperformanceparts.com/product http://www.subispeed.com/2015-subaru-wrx/subispeed-mk2-automatic-flappy-paddle-extensions-2013-ft86-automatic-2015-wrx-cvt-2014-forester-xt-cvt#.V2LKHeLR-3c http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/gcs-automatic-flappy-paddle-extensions-2013-ft86-automatic-2015-wrx-cvt-2014-forester-xt-cvt.html?gclid=COK314XzrM0CFVglgQodX08E5A#.V2LKueLR-3c http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/131842965528?lpid=82&chn=ps&ul_noapp=true

Yup. If the y-pipe design and/or cat location allows it, this is ideal. I tried to do it but it was impossible on my setup. Shortest practical resonators I've found are ~7-9" long with trimmed flanges and that wouldn't fit for me. Others mileage might very. The most important thing when fabricating a custom y or replacing the stock cats on the stock y is to keep the AFR and the rear O2 bung locations at the same distance as stock and the cats ~ at the same location as stock. Otherwise, injector latency and other tables will need additional (unnecessary) tuning.

2.25" setup similar to what I outlined (except stock cats... for now, lol): http://forum.liberty.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=32322#p429564

Good info Golferdude. Yes, 2.25" or 2.5" should be great for an NA 3.6R, helps with exhaust gas velocity, cylinder scavenging, etc. Unlike FI, these engines don't really need larger piping, 3" ID exhaust hurts low RPM torque, while hitting slightly higher (likely margin of error) peak TQ/HP numbers up top. As posted by a few members earlier in this thread, once the headers go on, if the cats and y are left stock (further downstream doesn't really matter), its just a question of time WHEN the stock cats will fail (start to collapse). Not good for the headers or the engine, let alone power. Typical symptoms include a chemical smell at WOT, low/mid RPM bogging, misfires on random cylinders, especially at operating temperature, discoloring of the raptor runners leading away from one or a few exhaust ports. Visual inspection of the cat insides will confirm but of course this requires the exhaust be cut up either way. So for anyone contemplating installing headers, at the very least remove the stock cats and replace with some hi-flow (say 200-300-400 cell; 200 is optimal but louder and might cause CL MILs/DTCs to set for the rear O2s without additional tuning) ceramic or metal core cats. For 3.6Rs which plan to remain NA (most) post header install, I'd recommend one of the three following setups (FI setup for reference): Conservative reliable setup (closest to stock but still plenty good): Raptor headers (2.25" ID runner outlet flange) -> stock Y-pipe (Vibrant or Magnaflow 200-400 cell hi-flow cats with small ID/OD say 2-2.25" to make welding into the stock y easier: metal core is better, ceramic slightly cheaper) -> stock catback 2.25" piping option, better flowing than above: Raptor headers (2.25" ID runner outlet flange) -> 2.25" SS Y-pipe (with 2.25" Vibrant or Magnaflow 200-400 cell hi-flow cats) -> stock catback or 2.25" catback with at least 1 perforated core straight-through resonator in the mid-pipe (say 18" long Vibrant bottle style or 14" long Vibrant Ultra quiet) 2.5" piping option, might be a wash with 2.25" flavor: Raptor headers (2.25" ID runner outlet flange) -> 2.5" SS Y-pipe (with 2.5" Vibrant or Magnaflow 200-400 cell hi-flow cats) -> 2.5" catback with at least 1 perforated core straight-through resonator in the mid-pipe (say 18" long Vibrant bottle style or 14" long Vibrant Ultra quiet) SC or Turbo-ready option: Raptor headers (2.25" ID runner outlet flange) -> 3-3.5" SS Y-pipe (with 3-4" Vibrant or Magnaflow 200-400 cell hi-flow cats) -> 3-3.5" catback (resonator likely not needed for Turbo setup, thanks to the muffling effect) 1. Not much, raptors and paired hi-flow cats are key, y-pipe secondary, catback tertiary. 2. Depends, see above. I'd vote 2.25" or 2.5" max. 3. Your call, I'd keep her dual - if you go aftermarket they are already much smaller than stock and the combined weight is likely less or equal to just one stock muffler. 4. 2.25" or 2.5", ideally matching the fabricated y-pipe ID or as close as possible to the stock y-pipe (if keeping the stock y).

So many questions... so little time. Ghia, did you get and read my PMs re the tune? I will chime in with answers to above soon. Am likely the only 3.6R that has had extensive exhaust work, re-work done. From stock to catback to headers to catless to mini resonators, metal core cats, single resonator, multi resonator, different ID piping, etc.

Found an Anzo-alternative aftermarket set of headlights (2010-2012 style). Seem to be of decent quality, potentially better than TYC/Depo/Gordon replacements: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Design-2010-2014-Subaru-Legacy-outback-Headlights-Headlamps-Left-Right-/131837380940?fits=Model%3ALegacy&hash=item1eb21ec94c:g:l0YAAOSwepJXUl1L http://www.ebay.com/itm/2010-2014-Subaru-Legacy-Outback-Headlights-Headlamps-Front-Lights-Left-Right-Set-/361552560552?fits=Make%3ASubaru%7CModel%3ALegacy&vxp=mtr&hash=item542e3641a8

How would we know? Neither of us had or considered using KYB Excels. There were some shock specs floating around for the 2013+ but unless you can compare them apples to apples with the KYB Excels, the only way to find out is to try them, or try both. The most likely scenario that would happen is a 2013+ owner who happens to switch to KYB Excels after blowing out stock shocks after racking up some miles or suspension damage.

What year is your 3.6R? If its 2010-2012, then get the 2013+ Shock/Struts. If its a 2013+ and you still want a bit stiffer - go with Koni inserts. You might be able to get a pre-made set from some on the forum or one of our vendors.

Correct. I'd go either: Conservative: Front Camber L/R: -1.0 or -1.2 Front Toe L/R: 0.00 Rear Camber L/R: -0.5 to -0.8 (adjustable rear LCAs might not allow you to go this low alone, check) Rear Toe L/R: 0.00 Aggressive: Front Camber L/R: -1.5 or -1.8 Front Toe L/R: 0.00 Rear Camber L/R: -1.0 or -1.2 Rear Toe L/R: 0.00 Typically you want 0 Toe, 0 Thrust Angle, and 0 Camber Split (not to be confused with Camber itself) on both axles A bit of positive Toe, especially out back is fine. 0.0x or 0.xx even if the tech can't or won't dial in as close to 0.00 as possible. Good read here:

Slight typo - the 2013+ H6 FSB is 26mm actually (its been too many years since I installed it). Both will fit like a glove. You might want to consider some better end-links to complement these sways at some point. The stock rear end-links will not be too happy with the 20mm RSB. Best bet for the 3.6R are the Rallitek 2015+ WRX Front end-links (correct M12 bolts like on the 3.6R and unlike most Subarus which use M10s) and SuperPro BRZ Rear end-links (great build quality, no noise, no clunking, OEM+).

Part numbers are correct for the 2013+ 3.6R FSB and 2015+ WRX RSB. Get the front 26mm, and no I don't believe it comes with the bushings. Might as well change the brackets too while at it: 1x http://www.quirkparts.com/oe-subaru/20401aj08a 2x http://www.quirkparts.com/oe-subaru/20416aj001 2x http://www.quirkparts.com/oe-subaru/20414aj10a Good call on the 2015+ WRX 20mm RSB It fits perfectly and its 20mm, a vast improvement over the stock 2010-2014 RSB (16mm regardless of pre or post face-lift). 1x http://www.quirkparts.com/oe-subaru/20451va000 2x http://www.quirkparts.com/oe-subaru/20414sg000 2x http://www.quirkparts.com/oe-subaru/20416sg000

Indeed, first use of the FA20DIT was on a 'JDM Legacy DIT'... also equipped with the Lineatronic HTCVT and years before the current FXT and WRX/Levorg GT-S were fitted with the same combo. MY2012 I believe. We had some Japanese members on here with those cars.

I had a look. Don't like what's happening between 1-2K engine RPM. Is this where you notice funky behavior now? The first plot below is 5EAT turbine speeds vs time The second plot is the same vs engine RPM I think you should concentrate the solenoid and line pressure checks in this area of logged engine RPM. For example, check out the odd looking P/L solenoid pressure in that range. I don't think this has anything to do with pre-TC lockup slip or torque amplification. I'd think the plot should follow a similar trend from low RPM up to torque converter lockup (2.5, 3K RPM?) I also don't see any log entries for 3rd gear! Its as if the ECU/TCU couldn't calc/estimate any 3rd gear instances. The last two plots zoom in on the data captured between 1-2K engine RPM. The P/L solenoid readings are clearly all over the place (unlike <1K and >2K engine RPM) and the AT turbine speeds per gear look odd. I don't know how to interpret these, but either 1st gear is fine, 2nd is odd, 3rd missing, 4th fine and 5th fine. Or 1st is fine, 2nd odd, 3rd missing, 4th fine, 5th fine. I think any transmission shop or one of our 4/5EAT gurus on here might know better. Seems to me some (2nd/3rd gear?) clutch packs might be going, your TC is slipping and not locking up or both. BTW, no ATF Temp logged? See if you can add that to the log. Would be good to see. Also, since your pre-2008 Scoobie can't do SSM-over-CAN I'm assuming you're limited to K-line. But check if you can check off 'fast polling' (faster K-line requests). With so few params being logged from the TCU, your polling rate should be better. Right now we only have ~170-180msec sampling rate. Would be better to get that down below 100msec, or even closer to 60msec if possible.

GFB Mach2 is great, works perfect on 2015+ WRX too.

Yup agreed, 245/45R18s here with RCE Black + Bilestein shock combo. Zero issues, could have gone a bit lower on the offset too (18x8.5 +45).

Gio used to have the Brayson-R V under lip, then added the garage-door seal underlip to it, then ditched both, went with the JDM style lip, it too might have the garage-door seal added back under there but I doubt it.

Yup... if you are not familiar with the Unicorn of Subaru Unicorns... search and you shall learn young padawan.