BAC5.2

I use dei's reflect-a-gold at work. Very good stuff. Looks silly, but works great

You don't need to teach me about fluids engineering, it is what I teach

 

Point out what is wrong in what I said. Use BL theory, heat transfer theory, or empirical results...

 

You can't, because by all of the above, I am right

 

This isn't worth it.

 

Your reply makes it seem as though you are ignoring the fact that the core is internally finned, and that while the cross sectional flow area increases, the internal fin count proportionally increases. This means that your volume to total surface area ratio increases over the stock core.

Frankly, I have no idea why you are "here" in the first place. You have zero to offer, on any aspect of the subject of this thread, from a practical or "engineering" point of view. Sort of like slipping on a pair of shorts and joining the Lakers on court, just because you've watched a couple games.

 

The people in this thread, in fact the entire 2.5 powertrains forum, are people who mod, who tune, who ask for more performance and/or better reliability from their turbo cars... not ones looking to make them NA, or detune them, or otherwise reduce their stock performance.

 

The people in this thread tend to argue more about the "how" and "why" of things instead of rant specious negativism. You have to be in the game to play. Before this thread is done, those playing will define the value of its content, not bystanders with their eye glued to the knothole in the fence.

 

That said, thank you for your participation. Foils provide the lighting that highlights the actual content.

 

You are so right. I don't know why I bothered coming into a thread trying to correct misinformation backed with actual fact. I'll be sure to never provide engineering insight on this forum again. Instead, I'll nod along like a sheep, bow down to your infinite automotive knowledge, and be mesmerized by your mastery of poetic syntax and wikipedia quotations. I'll bask in your light and knowledge, and spend eternity throwing little cocktail pickles at your feet. I'm so sorry for darkening your step with knowledge and information. Please forgive me. Clearly I was wrong for disagreeing with you.

 

There seems to be a lack of "bow down" smileys, so this will just have to suffice

Reminds me of this: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/attn-scammed-d2-customers-check-here-139056.html?t=139056&highlight=scammed

 

And this was a registered vendor that took all our money. Never received products or money.

 

I think the international boundary made this more difficult than it should have been.

Which part?

 

Let's see. The more you cool, the more your pressure drops.

Stock TMIC, better cooling, higher pressure drop.

Aftermarket TMIC, poor cooling, lower pressure drop.

 

The reason for this is because the channels in the aftermarket TMIC are larger. That is great for lots of flow, but poor for heat transfer. The large channels mean less pressure drop, and poor cooling due to those channels helps more.

 

Honestly, the problem is the direction and design of the WRX/LGT TMIC more than anything. The shorter the passage, the better the pressure drop. So with more channels that are shorter, you can make smaller channels with better heat transfer and you get a better overall TMIC. (Lower temps and less pressure drop) But, the turbo layout doesn't allow for that...

 

The plastic is MUCH better than aluminum for flow and heat if it is reinforced...

 

I'm not here to teach people about engineering. I've stated my point, with facts. I've been refuted by people with an incomplete (or nonexistant) understanding of what they are talking about. I'm done.

 

You guys can carry on believing whatever you want. I'll keep myself grounded in the magical world of data and facts.

Oh man, I forgot to post my picture at the beginning of this thread:

 

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii287/bac52/1256523423443.jpg

Slushbox? Maybe. I drive a MT so I don't personally know what it does with the TCU. MT? Modulate your foot better. Hell, S# makes less power than S anyway.

 

I've heard a bunch of people say that SI-Drive completely transforms the 5EAT cars.

 

I find use in I-mode, but mostly because it reminds me to drive sanely. I get much better fuel economy when I relax and use cruise control. I'd be fine if I-mode were no different than S# but with a shift light.

 

Someone did some dyno pulls in all 3 mods, and S# made more power than S. I remember reading something about how S#, in addition to throttle changes, also changes the "requested torque" values over S mode.

 

I dunno. I rarely find myself in S mode. I spend most of my time in I or S#.

BAC5.2 - Phil

2009

Outback 2.5XT

Wagon

Satin White Pearl

How has no one found out where he works, and call his boss to inform him that he is employing someone dishonest?

I've shipped to plenty of people to the PayPal address with a different name. I was just thinking that was stratomasters reason for saying something was stupid.

 

So long as it's confirmed, it's all good.

I think he was saying that it was stupid to ship to a name other than the one who paid you.

Hmm, the OP did put an AEM CAI on the car after just a few weeks of ownership...

Thank you.

 

While the extra psi an aftermarket IC allows makes a difference to a VF40 scratching for every little bit, on a VF52 it does not. The VF52 has a lot more available than a Stg2 can use, and keeping the charge cool is the goal, not hp. An aftermarket IC on my car would "free up" a psi I'd then just have to tune away, to prevent increasing my already 100%+ IDCs. Then, I'd have the same power, but a warmer charge. I'd have increased my weight, raised my CG, and ensured continuous heatsoak in the city... all for only $500-$1200.

 

Until now, however, the 08+ WRX/LGT IC's fundamentally sound quality was overshadowed by its unreliability. No more.

 

1) The number of people on this LEGACY board that have VF52's is far less than the number of people on an IMPREZA board. You JUST said that an aftermarket IC makes a difference to a VF40, the turbo that the majority of us have. How can that be, if you ALSO say that the stock intercooler is better in every way than an aftermarket unit?

 

2) The "extra psi" is not an extra psi. It's one or two psi that aren't lost through the intercooler. That means that you can turn down the boost, have the same manifold pressure, and run cooler! Cooler air in, cooler air out.

 

3) Datalogs don't tell you anything about components you don't have. Again, you can run 100% IDC's without an intercooler. Does that mean that no intercooler is better than the stock intercooler?

 

4) In a daily driver, can you feel the difference in CG between a car with a sunroof and one without? No, you can't. No one can. A Sunroof raises the CG much more than an aluminum intercooler does. We aren't talking about 30 pounds, or 20 pounds, or 10 pounds here. We are talking about a marginal weight increase very close to the CG of the car. This is, quite possibly, your worst argument.

 

Do this. Find anyone running a stock intercooler with a 40+ lb-min turbo. Why do you think no one does it? Surely it isn't because of end tanks blowing up. Why are people wasting money on front mount intercoolers, when they can just clamp their stock ones and get away with running GT30R's?

From a cooling standpoint, the stock IC is better in EVERYWAY vs. the aftermarket. The tinhg the aftermarket ones do is allow more flow with less pressure drop. That is about all. Which actually makes for poorer cooling...

 

That actually isn't true.

People who go through life looking for windmills to joust with... are often found around windmills, going in circles.

 

Evidence and proof are for people who cannot think clearly, who are unable to choose a direction without a sign to point the way. When they do find that sign and join the queue, eyes on the paved path, someone else is in front with unproven ideas.

 

Stock or otherwise, an intercooler has little to do with injectors. This WRX, and every other similarly configured platform... STIs, all 09+ WRXs for example... max out their injectors at Stg2. It's known history. But, an STI doesn't have to worry about an intercooler when they make more power, WRXs do, LGTs do. My tongue isn't occluding MY eye teeth.

 

Fact is, the legacygt.com forums have always been full of failed intercooler threads. I should know, right? They can't make the power of a new WRX, stock, but the ICs similarly fail. It is a no-brainer to conclude people might like to be able to cheaply ensure the integrity of their LegacyGT's otherwise confidence draining IC. Not everyone needs, wants, or can afford another intercooler. But, everyone wants reliability. Hating a WRX for being more powerful and NOT a legacy and and and ... will help no one. My old LGT was much more powerful than my WRX. It can still kick my car's butt. Makes me proud, not envious.

 

It takes no rocket scientist to grasp my comparison. Why do you think STI's have water sprayers... to combat heatsoak from those large all aluminum ICs. If you've autoxed, where heatsoak makes a BIIIIIG difference, you know a little water does nothing of value other than that. The plastic endtanked LGT/WRX TMIC in unarguably superior when it comes to heatsoak. Its size is adequate for a DD with 300ish whp. People happy with those FACTS don't NEED any aftermarket IC.

 

The new WRXs are, in fact, excellent cars... for what they are. They're no STI, despite similar Stg1-2 power. They are a shortened Legacy GT. The issues the WRX faces, LGTs face as well... especially (and this is what this thread is about BTW ) their TMICs.

 

Data logs are what I call facts. The chitter chatter of ground squirrels and thread trolls are more difficult to quantify.

 

So clearly this thread is a joke. You keep your head in the clouds, and your car on a pedestal. I'll keep my feet on the ground, and my decisions based on science and engineering knowledge. If that means that, in your opinion, I'm running in circles around a windmill, then so be it.

 

Keep your "eye teeth" to yourself.

The fact is, however, that that mythical all-aluminum TMIC would be inferior to the stock, modded, TMIC.

 

Land the plane. This isn't true. You have absolutely NO evidence to support this claim, other than the fact that your WRX (which is not a Legacy) is able to max out the injectors with the stock intercooler.

 

You could max out the injectors without an intercooler. Does that mean that your modified stock intercooler is inferior to no intercooler at all? You'd definitely be saving weight if you removed all of that pesky aluminum and plastic, and that would lower your CG. AND, it would improve your throttle response.

 

But, if you are completely oblivious to reality then I encourage you to continue admiring the "intrinsic beauty" of your wonderful car, and quote more cliche lines from wikipedia. It's clear that, no matter the facts presented, you'll continue to believe you are superior to all.

I wonder what the height of the STi reservoir is compared to stock. If it's lower, it'll better clear an aftermarket TMIC.

So you bought the STi hose, cut out the check valve, then shoved it into the LGT hose from the booster side?

 

The stock hose doesn't have a check valve?

So the replacement bushings are holding up well? That's fantastic. Good job!

I'm glad you'll forcibly misinterpret what I was saying.

 

Not reliability from an endtank failure standpoint. Reliability from a system standpoint.

I can. I'll try to snap a picture the next time I have it out of the box.

You said "I also argue that it is better than most of the aftermarket alternative". But your arguments for that are wrong or irrelevant. I have no agenda, because I don't really care all that much. I like your solution, but I disagree that a fixed stock TMIC is better than an aftermarket TMIC.

 

Your solution eliminates blowing endtanks. That's all. From a performance and efficiency standpoint, the stock intercooler doesn't stack up to aftermarket units. Your solution makes the stock intercooler more reliable. But an aftermarket intercooler is better in terms of performance, and better in terms of longevity. The turbo will run cooler, the charge density will increase, and you'll make the same power at lower boost. All of those things make for a more reliable setup overall. You said yourself it's not all about power, but it is about reliability.

 

If all you want to do is keep the stock intercooler together, and aren't interested in making the most of your setup, then this is a perfect solution. Of that I do not argue. But don't be fooled into thinking there is nothing to gain from an all aluminum, bar-and-plate intercooler. That's all.

 

Fahr, that would be correct if the flow channels were hollow. They aren't. They are internally finned. So while wider, they have greater internal fin surface area, and that's just as important as exposed surface area. The real, measurable difference between bar and plate, and tube and fin, is all about flow area. More flow area, less pressure loss, more efficient turbine and if the exchanger is adequately designed more efficient heat transfer. You could run a big aftermarket turbo with an aftermarket TMIC, but you couldn't do the same with a stock TMIC.

 

This could all easily be put to bed by taking internal core temperatures on a car tuned for both types of intercooler. One at the inlet and one at the outlet of the intercooler. That's a sure fire way to find the efficiency of a core. Personally, I don't care all that much. I've got an aftermarket intercooler sitting on my bench ready to install when my exhaust is done. I got it merely as a point of reliability, and I got a deal on it that made it worthwhile.

Sure it takes longer to heatsoak a big ic, but heatsoak occurs most under exactly the conditions a DD operates. And because it is a big hot thing, it does not cool down nearly as quickly as the stock unit... not even close. So light to light, all things equal, the stocker is better.

 

When are you driving that you are stopped more than you are moving? As soon as you start moving, ambient air blows across a more efficient heat exchanger.

 

It cools down quickly enough, and will stay cooler for longer when stopped.

 

And in the case for the DD Stg2, throttle response with the smaller capacity of the stock IC means it has the best possible.

That's a ridiculous argument. The volume of the IC versus the volume of the engine is outrageous. Even if the volume doubles between the stock IC and the aftermarket one. We can even overshoot. Say the aftermarket TMIC is 5L and the stock 2.5L. It takes a whole 4 revolutions for the engine to pump 5L of air. The difference is imperceptible. Yours is the same argument people try to make for a front-mount. The difference in throttle lag is unnoticeable. There are plenty of folks running front-mounts with stock turbos.

 

The weight difference between a Perrin TMIC, for example, and the stock TMIC is significant. The aluminum used in the mod weighs only scant ounces (good point though, I'll weigh them ), it changes nothing.

Again, even if double the weight, it's proximity to the "no-IC" CG means it's impact is marginal. We aren't talking about 60 pounds here.

 

For a DD, you wouldn't be able to notice a difference between a car equipped with a sunroof, and one without. And if you can, then you can certainly appreciate the better intercooler.

 

Tests suggest that the STI TMIC, for example, is significantly superior to a "bigger" bar and plate replacement.

This is complete rubbish. I can't think of a single car that's made 400whp on pump gas with a stock STI TMIC. I can think of many that have done that kind of power with a big topmount.

 

Even in your Nasioc link, on the first page, is a dyno comparison. Almost 20whp from an upgraded intercooler, with no loss in power at any other zone.

 

My modded IC is as good as this car needs at this level. "This level" is Stg2, which logs IDCs of 102% and airflow at the outer limits of this turbo. No big aftermarket intercooler needed, none wanted.

See, that's really the bottom line. This solution is better for YOU. But it's not better than an aftermarket intercooler.

 

If you had a better flowing, better cooling intercooler you'd make the same power at less boost. You could still push IDC's to 102%. Less boost means less heat, means more efficient turbo, which means you aren't quite at the outer limits of the turbo. So you make more power while putting the turbo through less stress, decreasing oil temps, and improving reliability of the turbo.

 

Your logic would indicate that the stock intercooler would be better with ANY turbo. That you could put something that flows 50lb/min and be better off with the stock intercooler than a front-mount. Because the front mount has so much more volume, so much less resistance, and must be less efficient because of it.

 

IDC's aren't all that matters. At 18psi, the air going into your engine with a stock TMIC is much higher than with an aftermarket TMIC.

 

I'm glad you are enjoying your platform, too.

I am, and likewise that you are enjoying the WRX. I wish the Process West intercooler were a little less expensive and more readily available. That is definitely a good setup.

"Thermal mass" is the reason. In daily driving that thermal mass does just that... absorbs a large mass of thermal energy. That heat, largely from the engine, is both larger and lasts longer in the HEAVY aftermarket TMICs.

 

It takes longer to heat soak a big TMIC, and moving more than a few mph will bring engine bay temps down to near ambient temperatures. Your argument works both ways, and in most daily drives you are moving more than you are stopped.

 

The single most significant power-related "benefit" of most aftermarket TMICs is the fact they have less internal resistance. That, to me anyway, signals a loss in efficiency as well.

You are wrong.

 

1) Bar and plate provides more cooling surface area than tube and fin. Tubes and fins have low galley surface area, and low cooling fin density. Bar and plate cores typically have more than double the galley surface area (the wet surface area, even ignoring depth) and the same or greater fin density.

 

2) The increased size of the galleys, and the decrease in flow resistance they provide, decreases pressure drop across the core as well. A decreased pressure drop means your turbo is actually making less boost at the outlet of the compressor AND it isn't working as hard to pump air through a restrictive box. This decrease in outlet pressure and decrease in resistance drops the outlet air temperature significantly. Your turbo is working more efficiently, and the system as a whole is operating at higher efficiency. Lower inlet temperatures mean more dense air, which also means greater difficulty in heating that air.

 

Not to mention raising your center of gravity with a ton of aluminum up high.

You are overstating the weight of an aftermarket TMIC. Yours, with the clamps, versus my aluminum aftermarket TMIC is really only going to be a pound or two more.

 

A pound or two, two or three inches above the center of gravity is not going to make a difference.

 

Having long hair versus a shaved head would have about the same impact on the center of gravity. Last I checked, Jenson Button had longer hair than Lewis Hamilton.

 

I've done both. Read the NASIOC thread.

Done both of what? You've stopped the endtanks from blowing off, but you aren't going to outperform a bigger TMIC.

 

This is a good cheap fix, and your execution is top notch, but it is not better than aftermarket alternatives. Cheaper, and good for people looking for less out of their cars, but not better.

Why better than a better flowing core with more thermal mass?