Cobb vs Rom Raider (Open Source tuning)

I've noticed a few threads talking about COBB and how there having issues. My response is this. Unless you are using a cobb specific feature romraider + a cable is much cheaper and provides you with way more flexibility.

If your interested in getting into opensource realm there are great maps that are a good place to start. Mickyd's map and my modified stage 2 all seem to be very safe maps.

If anyone is interested in learning more post the questions here I will do my best to answer them in a timely manner.

You don't need to know how to tune to use romraider and ecu flash.

So sell the cobbs and buy some go fast parts .

There are two main reasons I use a Cobb AP and their StreetTUNER software. One, is this disclaimer, as well as the occasional posted consequence that necessitates it:

Warning: RomRaider is intended for use only by experienced tuners who understand the consequences. As with any tuning solution, the potential for engine damage is very high when altering your ECUs hard coded values. The use of appropriate equipment (ie, knock sensor, wideband oxygen sensor) is extremely important. By downloading RomRaider, you agree to assume all risks and accept its license. Use at your own risk.

Secondly, over the course of numerous setups and mods I have done literally hundreds if not thousands of changes to my maps, Real Time tuning lets me do that without worrying about the number of finite reflashes before I need a new, EXPENSIVE, ECU. By now I'd have used up several ECUs with Romraider.

IMO, Romraider has its place, and is an incredible asset to the tuning community. But it is not an outright replacement for Cobb's tools. In the best of circumstances they are used together, supplementing each other. If development of Romraider ever includes Real Time Tuning, and that disclaimer is removed, perhaps then intelligent people will consider it a viable standalone replacement.

There are two main reasons I use a Cobb AP and their StreetTUNER software. One, is this disclaimer, as well as the occasional posted consequence that necessitates it:

You do realize Cobb Streettuner has a nearly identical disclaimer, please see attachment straight from the ST user manual.

Secondly, over the course of numerous setups and mods I have done literally hundreds if not thousands of changes to my maps, Real Time tuning lets me do that without worrying about the number of finite reflashes before I need a new, EXPENSIVE, ECU. By now I'd have used up several ECUs with Romraider.

It is true that there is a 'certain unknown' number of usable flashes that a ECU can except HOWEVER I do not know of one case that the ECU simply died of too many flashes. My own personal 2003 WRX had +150 reflashes on the ECU using ECUFlash & Romraider w/o any ill effects.

Best combo is RomRaider + APv1/Streettuner. RomRaider for things Cobb does not have and Streettuner for realtime tuning.

APv1/Streettuner roms can be read by ecuflash and modified with RomRaider. APv2/Accesstuner locks out the ecu.

I'm going to be hosting a tactrix night in columbus ohio. Kinda a pick thorne's brain and I show how to data log.

The number of flashes is EXTEREMLY hi. Current ecu's can be flashed literlly thosand and thosands of times. I've reflashed my ecu over 100times easly. The cobb literally pulls the ecu off the car that started with, uploads its own. There maps are not special. You can even look at the maps in software and see they are exactly the same style as a romraider because they are both ecu reflashes.

Advantage is they have found a way to patch the roms for live tuning. That's awesome I would love to have that. It's coming for romraider but not yet. It's said to be used by experianced tuners. But It's no more special then cobb minus live tuning.

The thing is cobb offers you OTS roms. Thats no diffrent then open source roms minus you can assume as a commericial product there maps are solid. In the open scene you've got to read a bit and data log your car to make sure its all good. I will say I've seen logs from a cobb map with knock so every car should data log if they are tuning.

You do have people like myself and mickyd that are working to help the legacy scene as there seems to be a hole there.

Now cobb is awesome for the complete computer noob. They don't need to understand anything to plug it in and flash a rom. It requires a little bit of understanding to do it with ecuflash but its not hard . Plug green cables in just like cobb. Put dongle on just like cobb(16bitecu's) plug laptop with software upload rom (Thats the same thing cobb does).

This thread is more of a hey if you did not know this option is out there. There is also growing support for the legacy community.

Best combo is RomRaider + APv1/Streettuner. RomRaider for things Cobb does not have and Streettuner for realtime tuning.

 

APv1/Streettuner roms can be read by ecuflash and modified with RomRaider. APv2/Accesstuner locks out the ecu.

And your car doesn't currently run ....right

And your car doesn't currently run ....right

Nothing to do with the above.

It is important to note, Cobb nor anyone uploads the ECU. The ECU is a device, it stays in its box. What is uploaded is an IMAGE of the ECU's programming.

Also, AFAIK, current knowledge and current ECU flashing restrictions still state about 100 flashes. Some have done more, but not by thousands. Thousands is not going to happen.

Nevertheless, as unclemat said,

Best combo is RomRaider + APv1/Streettuner. RomRaider for things Cobb does not have and Streettuner for realtime tuning.

I've noticed a few threads talking about COBB and how there having issues.

Please explain.

Please explain.

I was curious about this, too. I've read about more aggresive maps and 1 or 2 cases of trouble flashing the ECU but nothing major.

There are two main reasons I use a Cobb AP and their StreetTUNER software. One, is this disclaimer, as well as the occasional posted consequence that necessitates it:

 

Warning: RomRaider is intended for use only by experienced tuners who understand the consequences. As with any tuning solution, the potential for engine damage is very high when altering your ECUs hard coded values. The use of appropriate equipment (ie, knock sensor, wideband oxygen sensor) is extremely important. By downloading RomRaider, you agree to assume all risks and accept its license. Use at your own risk.

 

Secondly, over the course of numerous setups and mods I have done literally hundreds if not thousands of changes to my maps, Real Time tuning lets me do that without worrying about the number of finite reflashes before I need a new, EXPENSIVE, ECU. By now I'd have used up several ECUs with Romraider.

 

IMO, Romraider has its place, and is an incredible asset to the tuning community. But it is not an outright replacement for Cobb's tools. In the best of circumstances they are used together, supplementing each other. If development of Romraider ever includes Real Time Tuning, and that disclaimer is removed, perhaps then intelligent people will consider it a viable standalone replacement.

Sorry buddy..............but..........

1) is the same for both, no difference what-so-ever.

You show me someone that has screwed up their ECU OS stuff, and I will show you 20 people that have sent their ECU back to COBB.

2) RR doesn't do a whole ECU flash (like a base map from the AP), it just changes the few parameters that have changed.

Again, show me an example of anybody that has 'worn out' their ECU from using Enginuity/RR, don't think you will find one. And I can gaurantee their are a few guys that have flashed their ROM with RR more times then you have flashed a new RT map with ST.

That whole "100" flashes thing is a joke.

That being said I agree w/ unclemat:

Best combo is RomRaider + APv1/Streettuner. RomRaider for things Cobb does not have and Streettuner for realtime tuning.

 

APv1/Streettuner roms can be read by ecuflash and modified with RomRaider. APv2/Accesstuner locks out the ecu.

Best combo is RomRaider + APv1/Streettuner. RomRaider for things Cobb does not have and Streettuner for realtime tuning. APv1/Streettuner roms can be read by ecuflash and modified with RomRaider. APv2/Accesstuner locks out the ecu.

I'm with ya too. We need to remember that those speaking on the side of Cobb StreetTuner here are using our APv1 and have a fully licensed, HASP key controlled version of StreetTuner or StreetTuner-Advanced that works perfectly. I have NEVER had any notable issue with my hardware or software and see no need to replace it.

There are a few basemap parameters that I wish were in ST-A(and that are in RR), but other than that; I can adjust everything else on the fly, do live table tracing and datalogging all at the same time from one piece of software without having to shut the car down or resetting or re-flashing the ECU. That's about all I really need. I guess I'm one of the happy Cobb customers. Their products have done exactly what they advertised them to do. Nothing more and nothing less.

I was really curious peoples take on this and this thread has shown me one thing. WOW.

I hang out on the tuner boards to much.

All I know is realtime tuning sure would be nice

BTW: I am well over 100 ECUFlashes as well....

Point#1: ^^^ I don't know. Real-time tuning and road tuning really don't seem to go hand-in-hand. For the dyno, it's great... but for those who tune without a dyno I don't think it's a huge plus.

Point #2: When comparing Cobb AP vs. OS, hardware is an important factor. If you don't already have a laptop the Cobb option is considerably more attractive vs. buying a laptop, buying a Tactrix, and taking a chance. Cobb is definitely good stuff, it has it's place, and they are a good company.

Point #3: The best tuner in your neighborhood will get you the same best safe power going either way.

I don't personally care what people use to tune and please don't think that I am trying to say one is better than the other. I'm just saying that MY Cobb products do exactly as advertised/expected. I'll agree that the AP/ST combo has it's place, it's not for everybody and it's not perfect nor cheap but it's not bad either.

Remember, I'm the guy who actually got the Autonostics cable to work with the OS loggers and flashers and continues to work with OS'ers daily to help them out so it's all the same to me;).

i don't understand why there would be a limit to ECU flashes. you're basically reflashing firmware in a system, no? it's not like there's a counter that checks how many times it has been done. the only reason people may think there is a finite number of reflashes is that someone flashed so many times that one time it screwed up their ECU, i.e. something went wrong mid-flash and that's how things break.

I probably could have gone and done the OS tuning by using a cable and map, but i went with an AP instead. I liked the security of it doing the work for me, even though I'm pretty good with computers. a car's ecu was not something i've had experience with. now that i started logging and really looking into it, i see it as a possible thing for the future. for now, i'm happy with my AP setup.

The 100 number is the bogey man in all of these discussions. Not that anyone here wants to be confused by the facts but the fact is that the ECU is speced to be able to be re-flashed 100 times, it has nothing to do with how many times it can actually be flashed.

If you know what you are doing the software you use doesn't matter so l ong as it can do what needs to be done. It comes down to usability. I like Street Tuner (because that is what I used and the open source stuff wasn't around when I set up my car).

I can tell you that all of this stuff looks like an abacus compared to what is available to some platforms (like GM) and looks like a supercomputer to what is available for others (like Toyota, for which there is NONE).

Also, the old Street Tuner had everything you need to set up a Legacy unless you wanted to do really strange stuff or you feel the need to adjust things that don't need to be adjusted

Sorry buddy..............but..........

 

1) is the same for both, no difference what-so-ever.

 

You show me someone that has screwed up their ECU OS stuff, and I will show you 20 people that have sent their ECU back to COBB.

 

2) RR doesn't do a whole ECU flash (like a base map from the AP), it just changes the few parameters that have changed.

 

Again, show me an example of anybody that has 'worn out' their ECU from using Enginuity/RR, don't think you will find one. And I can gaurantee their are a few guys that have flashed their ROM with RR more times then you have flashed a new RT map with ST.

 

That whole "100" flashes thing is a joke.

 

 

 

That being said I agree w/ unclemat:

You'll convert me yet .

So far I've been able to do everything I needed with ST alone. However, there is a parameter here and there I cannot touch with ST that needs changed, such as the Primary Open Loop AFR Lean Limit that you discovered, for example (found here http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89068).

But perhaps the most important reason to combine ST and Romraider tuning, is to be able to create a solid Base Map that will operate the car in case of a reset somewhere/sometime/somehow when the AP is not an option. One simply cannot accomplish this with StreetTUNER alone.

This is why I have a Tactrix cable and up to date openecu tools. But it hadn't been time for me until now, partly because the general body of knowledge had yet to be complete enough, and the tools developed enough for my own peace of mind. It is now.

You'll convert me yet .

 

So far I've been able to do everything I needed with ST alone. However, there is a parameter here and there I cannot touch with ST that needs changed, such as the Primary Open Loop AFR Lean Limit that you discovered, for example (found here http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89068).

 

But perhaps the most important reason to combine ST and Romraider tuning, is to be able to create a solid Base Map that will operate the car in case of a reset somewhere/sometime/somehow when the AP is not an option. One simply cannot accomplish this with StreetTUNER alone.

 

This is why I have a Tactrix cable and up to date openecu tools. But it hadn't been time for me until now, partly because the general body of knowledge had yet to be complete enough, and the tools developed enough for my own peace of mind. It is now.

To follow up on this, maybe you (LBGT) could post a list of suggested upgrades/changes to/improvements on Cobb's maps as we know them. These might be classed as to level of upgrade, etc. Then those of us who want to delve into Romraider/openecu would have a more comprehensive choice for our specific application.

Personally, even though I now have enough experience to be comfortable with ST, trying to mine data from the growing mountain of posts on Romraider, and others, that I need/want in my own car is daunting. Having a short list from someone I trust would help immensely.

I'm not talking about actual tuning, per se. That is up to the individual and is part of their "rite of passage." What I mean is the esoteric nuggets people have unearthed that are basic to EVERY tune.... MAF limitations come to mind, as well as the aforementioned Lean Limit. Things everyone should consider.

Obviously, this would be oriented toward what is now possible for most, a synergism between Romraider/openecu and ST, a version of which is now free. Unclemat's quoted post points the way.