Tune necessary for TMIC?

[jbangoy]

I searched and couldn't find. I know a tune is needed to get the full potential out of an upgraded IC, but is it absolutely necessary? I would like to get one as my next mod but I wanted to wait until I got a little bit more done before going the protune route.

[4CEF3D]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe it is not necessary as long as its a TMIC.

[idiot4hire]

You can do it but you won't get any noticeable gains. I would recommend just waiting until you get a protune unless your blowing endtanks. I was in your same situation a while ago and even with a protune ther wasn't a huge difference just peace of mind . I would have bullet proofed my oem tmic and bought struts and springs if I were to do it again.

[idiot4hire]

If your stage one your next mod should be a downpipe its cheaper and will see the biggest gains. You really don't need a intercooler until you swap in a bigger turbo.

[jbangoy]

I'm putting in an STi up, a crucial dp, P&L avcs and oil feed, and new plugs tomorrow.

[cryo]

A tune is not required like mentioned above but you will not see any real gains and may see slightly reduced boost pressures because of the increased volume.

 

A tune will capitalize on the addition.

 

Dave

[iNVAR]

Also, if you overboost as a result of the increased cooling ability, then a tune is necessary. You may see a larger spike in colder weather.

[06legsleeper]

im on a ots map , i went with a diff tmic just for peace of mind cause my tanks where starting to seperate so . i havn't gottin a protune yet , till i do my single mass fw and clutch change this weekend , then break in ....

 

after that i will be getting tuned to take full advantage of that new clutch and top mount for sure .

 

but i think you'll be fine

[jbangoy]

well upon removal and inspection while installing my stage 2 bits the stocker seems to be holding up very well so I will probably shift my focus to suspension mods instead.

[mtlonergan]

Don't run it too hard until you get q better tmic. You will likely over heat and loose your boost as the compressed air will be too hot and this will result in escalating engine temperatures, until your boost controller takes action and limits you to 10 psi.

[4CEF3D]

Ok so I'm new to this forumn but not new to these cars. Don't think any of this^^ is correct.

[jbangoy]

I think cryo knows best.

[BarManBean]

Don't run it too hard until you get q better tmic. You will likely over heat and loose your boost as the compressed air will be too hot and this will result in escalating engine temperatures, until your boost controller takes action and limits you to 10 psi.

 

Dear new guy: whut? you make no sense.

 

*and yes, I realize you signed up in 2009.

 

Ok so I'm new to this forumn but not new to these cars. Don't think any of this^^ is correct.

 

you may be new but you apparently have a pretty good eye for seeing through a load of crap.

 

I think cryo knows best.

 

this^

[4CEF3D]

Oh and if any of that were true it would be 7psi.

[iNVAR]

I think cryo knows boost.

 

fixed

[mtlonergan]

Correct, you don't need a new tune.

 

Allow me to explain the ideal gas equation PV=nRT which you may remember from Chemistry... or Thermodynamics and Heat Transfer

 

P - Pressure (variable)

V - Volume (variable)

n - fixed number of grams per mole of the gas (in our case the gas is fresh air ~70 Nitrogen and ~30% oxygen)

R - constant (8.31441 J K-1 mol-1, since we are dealing with SI)

T- can you guess what this one is... Temperature (variable).

 

Increased your turbo's PSI. Your volume may increase slightly as well as the HP is really realted to volume of air, not pressure. The volume is based on your OEM intercooler. However, because this air flow is dynamic the volume is not based on the "fill volume" of the intercooler, it is based on the laminar air flow ie the design of the intercooler.

 

lets see what happens to the equation

 

(+P)V=nR(+T)

 

Look at that; if pressure increases and none of the fixed values can change, there is a proportional increase to temperature.

 

Conclusion; don't drive like a teenager until you get a more efficient intercooler. Or just keep resetting your boost controller when the heat gain is in access of the threshold. I know what your thinking, "then I would see an overheat on my temperature gauge." Not necessarily, this is your engine temperature gauge, your turbo temperature runs on different thresholds.

 

 

Not sure which turbo has a 7PSI wastegate actuator, but my VF40 is set to 10PSI... could also be that I had it rebuilt and it was replaced. But that is neither here nor there.

 

Do correct me if I am wrong. Its been a slice.

[Max Capacity]

A tune is not required like mentioned above but you will not see any real gains and may see slightly reduced boost pressures because of the increased volume.

 

A tune will capitalize on the addition.

 

Dave

 

When I put mine on I got a street tune. For a few bucks you can get a lot more bang.

 

You may want to have a smaller boost pill installed too. My Tuner just took a small metal wire splice and pushed it on a piece of vaccum hose and replaced the OEM boost pill.

[iNVAR]

Correct, you don't need a new tune.

 

Allow me to explain the ideal gas equation PV=nRT which you may remember from Chemistry... or Thermodynamics and Heat Transfer

 

P - Pressure (variable)

V - Volume (variable)

n - fixed number of grams per mole of the gas (in our case the gas is fresh air ~70 Nitrogen and ~30% oxygen)

R - constant (8.31441 J K-1 mol-1, since we are dealing with SI)

T- can you guess what this one is... Temperature (variable).

 

Increased your turbo's PSI. Your volume may increase slightly as well as the HP is really realted to volume of air, not pressure. The volume is based on your OEM intercooler. However, because this air flow is dynamic the volume is not based on the "fill volume" of the intercooler, it is based on the laminar air flow ie the design of the intercooler.

 

lets see what happens to the equation

 

(+P)V=nR(+T)

 

Look at that; if pressure increases and none of the fixed values can change, there is a proportional increase to temperature.

 

Conclusion; don't drive like a teenager until you get a more efficient intercooler. Or just keep resetting your boost controller when the heat gain is in access of the threshold. I know what your thinking, "then I would see an overheat on my temperature gauge." Not necessarily, this is your engine temperature gauge, your turbo temperature runs on different thresholds.

 

 

Not sure which turbo has a 7PSI wastegate actuator, but my VF40 is set to 10PSI... could also be that I had it rebuilt and it was replaced. But that is neither here nor there.

 

Do correct me if I am wrong. Its been a slice.

I'm sorry, don't take this the wrong way, but I believe you're applying PV=nRT incorrectly. I went through this whole thing recently and there's a lot more to it than just that.

 

For example, n is not a constant. When pressure increases with a fixed volume, you have 2 variables remaining - T and n. Air is compressible, never forget that. So when you increase the pressure inside a fixed volume container, you can actually force more molecules into it.

 

It's not as if the turbo can just suddenly increase pressure. The method that the turbo produces boost is precisely by cramming more molecules into the same set volume of space.

 

Your volume may increase slightly as well as the HP is really realted to volume of air, not pressure.

In particular, ^-- this is incorrect. HP is related to the MASS of the air ingested. And even more specifically, it's related to the amount of OXYGEN ingested.

[rob-2]

I searched and couldn't find. I know a tune is needed to get the full potential out of an upgraded IC, but is it absolutely necessary? I would like to get one as my next mod but I wanted to wait until I got a little bit more done before going the protune route.

 

All my research suggests that a higher volume intercooler like the AVO does required a tune. As per Cobb's notes their maps are intended for stock intake setups.

 

I will be getting the AVO and a street tune done locally.

[.Catalyst.]

Correct, you don't need a new tune.

 

Conclusion; don't drive like a teenager until you get a more efficient intercooler.

 

Do correct me if I am wrong.

I snipped out the science lesson for the day to point out a couple things here, (iNVAR and Cryo are by far much more knowledgable in tuning these cars, so they can enlighten you on the reasons a tune should be utilized to get the most out of a different TMIC).

 

The OEM TMIC is probably the most efficient available for our platform (when considering heat soak and pressure drop across the core). With plastic end tanks it doesn't heat soak as fast and is a solid design with stock and slightly higher boost levels. The only real problem is the way the core mounts to the end tanks, and with increased boost pressure they can start to split. Easy solution is the "Bulletproof TMIC" kit. If you are planning on staying with a stock turbo this is truly all you need.

[rob-2]

I snipped out the science lesson for the day to point out a couple things here, (iNVAR and Cryo are by far much more knowledgable in tuning these cars, so they can enlighten you on the reasons a tune should be utilized to get the most out of a different TMIC).

 

The OEM TMIC is probably the most efficient available for our platform (when considering heat soak and pressure drop across the core). With plastic end tanks it doesn't heat soak as fast and is a solid design with stock and slightly higher boost levels. The only real problem is the way the core mounts to the end tanks, and with increased boost pressure they can start to split. Easy solution is the "Bulletproof TMIC" kit. If you are planning on staying with a stock turbo this is truly all you need.

 

The problem I have with the stock is the poor build quality for the price. Really a poor design. Subi went with way too much plastic on the intake system

[BarManBean]

The problem I have with the stock is the poor build quality for the price. Really a poor design. Subi went with way too much plastic on the intake system

 

Agreed, however that problem can be solved for $90 with one of my kits or for ~$40 if you are the DIY type and have the time/tools. Or you can buy an aftermarket intercooler for $400-1000 depending on exactly which brand you go with. Everyone should weigh their own goals / needs, budget, and the potential for gain and make their own decisions based on those criteria.

[idiot4hire]

The problem I have with the stock is the poor build quality for the price. Really a poor design. Subi went with way too much plastic on the intake system

 

I think the oem tmic is good design for what it's meant to do. Subaru wasn't thinking of people who plan on running high boost. Plus its one of the few things I could take on and off easily with my dummy caveman brain

[700watts]

go racer-x front mount and a tune and call it day

[rob-2]

Agreed, however that problem can be solved for $90 with one of my kits or for ~$40 if you are the DIY type and have the time/tools. Or you can buy an aftermarket intercooler for $400-1000 depending on exactly which brand you go with. Everyone should weigh their own goals / needs, budget, and the potential for gain and make their own decisions based on those criteria.

 

I reviewed your kit and I think it's a great option. Looks like it's going to be about $200-300 extra for me to go with an all metal design. I've opted to spend that because I don't want to buy a poorly designed part and 'repair' it into acceptable spec. Works well for me because I will get a re-tune at the same time.

 

I think the oem tmic is good design for what it's meant to do. Subaru wasn't thinking of people who plan on running high boost. Plus its one of the few things I could take on and off easily with my dummy caveman brain

 

What's certain is they made the intercooler the cheapest method possible. Mine started before I upped the boost.

 

Let's keep in mind 10-16psi over all that surface area is really 'light' in terms of strength requirements. The metal used to seal is very soft.

 

Don't get me started on all the plastic intake manifold crap and the bad sealing because of it