Tune necessary for TMIC?

[iNVAR]

Plastic was chosen because it is much less prone to heatsoak. It is also lighter and when manufactured properly (like it is) the intake manifold is smoother than anything you might produce with a metal intake manifold and therefore airflow is less turbulent. Finally, yes, it is cheaper to produce. With regards to the tabs separating on the intercooler, yes, I agree, it does have a tendency to separate, but as far as materials go, the tabs are aluminum, like the core of the intercooler. If they had chosen to use a different metal to seal the intercooler, well.... you know what happens when you combine dissimilar metals, right?

[rob-2]

Plastic was chosen because it is much less prone to heatsoak. It is also lighter and when manufactured properly (like it is) the intake manifold is smoother than anything you might produce with a metal intake manifold and therefore airflow is less turbulent. Finally, yes, it is cheaper to produce. With regards to the tabs separating on the intercooler, yes, I agree, it does have a tendency to separate, but as far as materials go, the tabs are aluminum, like the core of the intercooler. If they had chosen to use a different metal to seal the intercooler, well.... you know what happens when you combine dissimilar metals, right?

 

The mixing of metals isn't the only solution to this problem. I get your point. Their intake system is one of the many weak links in their designing process.

 

Plastic is by far the cheapest way to get smooth airflow but of the less desirable methods as well.

 

Heatsoak is greatly exaggerated in just about every reference to it I've ever read or personally experienced. Higher quality parts mean less failure and longer reliability. It's not acceptable to me that an intake component needs replacing after 100K. FYI most every car in stop and go traffic suffers heatsoak, boosted or not.

[iNVAR]

The mixing of metals isn't the only solution to this problem. I get your point. Their intake system is one of the many weak links in their designing process.

 

Heatsoak is greatly exaggerated in just about every reference to it I've ever read or personally experienced. Higher quality parts mean less failure and longer reliability. It's not acceptable to me that an intake component needs replacing after 100K. FYI most every car in stop and go traffic suffers heatsoak, boosted or not.

Yes, the point is that a large fully metallic TMIC retains the heat and therefore takes significantly longer to dissipate the heat.

 

If you have ever driven in traffic in bumper to bumper traffic in NYC, you'd understand how badly the heat soak can negatively impact performance. My full aluminum AVO TMIC sucks up heat in traffic like crazy.

 

When the temperature outside is 80-90F and I monitor my data live, the intake temperature read from the MAF sensor location gets to 140-150F when I'm in traffic. Can you imagine what the actual temperature is, if I could actually get a reading from the manifold area? The intake temperature drops rapidly as soon as I start moving, but it takes a while before my TMIC actually cools off because of how much heat is stored in the aluminum. Consequently, since WGDC is dependent on intake temperature, WGDC starts getting reduced, even though the TMIC hasn't "caught up" yet to the reduction in temperature at the MAF sensor's location, and you end up with really crappy spool and difficulty hitting boost targets.

 

It's not "exaggerated" in any sense.

Plastic is by far the cheapest way to get smooth airflow but of the less desirable methods as well.

Yes, you drive a Subaru LGT. The car isn't super cheap but it isn't super expensive either. There are more desirable methods, but they're significantly more expensive. Metal can be highly polished to achieve that sort of airflow but that requires a lot of time and effort which translates into emptying out your pockets a lot more. They are also much heavier.

 

You act like Subaru is the only car maker in existence to use a plastic manifold. Plenty of car manufacturers do, including BMW, whom I don't believe to be considered cheap... especially because they use it on some M3s.

[jbangoy]

Agreed, however that problem can be solved for $90 with one of my kits or for ~$40 if you are the DIY type and have the time/tools. Or you can buy an aftermarket intercooler for $400-1000 depending on exactly which brand you go with. Everyone should weigh their own goals / needs, budget, and the potential for gain and make their own decisions based on those criteria.

 

Already decided on that BMB I'm coming down to meet you today ;-)

[cryo]

 

I agree.

 

Dave

[Max Capacity]

I agree.

 

Dave

 

Yep, that's what I learned when I saw the results of a little wire splice, a piece of hose and a lap top.

 

Oh yes, learned about putting zip ties on all the vacuum hoses real fast.

[idiot4hire]

I reviewed your kit and I think it's a great option. Looks like it's going to be about $200-300 extra for me to go with an all metal design. I've opted to spend that because I don't want to buy a poorly designed part and 'repair' it into acceptable spec. Works well for me because I will get a re-tune at the same time.

 

 

 

What's certain is they made the intercooler the cheapest method possible. Mine started before I upped the boost.

 

Let's keep in mind 10-16psi over all that surface area is really 'light' in terms of strength requirements. The metal used to seal is very soft.

 

Don't get me started on all the plastic intake manifold crap and the bad sealing because of it

 

They cheaped out on the hoods to they should definitely be carbon fiber

[rob-2]

Yes, the point is that a large fully metallic TMIC retains the heat and therefore takes significantly longer to dissipate the heat.

 

If you have ever driven in traffic in bumper to bumper traffic in NYC, you'd understand how badly the heat soak can negatively impact performance. My full aluminum AVO TMIC sucks up heat in traffic like crazy.

 

When the temperature outside is 80-90F and I monitor my data live, the intake temperature read from the MAF sensor location gets to 140-150F when I'm in traffic. Can you imagine what the actual temperature is, if I could actually get a reading from the manifold area? The intake temperature drops rapidly as soon as I start moving, but it takes a while before my TMIC actually cools off because of how much heat is stored in the aluminum. Consequently, since WGDC is dependent on intake temperature, WGDC starts getting reduced, even though the TMIC hasn't "caught up" yet to the reduction in temperature at the MAF sensor's location, and you end up with really crappy spool and difficulty hitting boost targets.

 

It's not "exaggerated" in any sense.

Yes, you drive a Subaru LGT. The car isn't super cheap but it isn't super expensive either. There are more desirable methods, but they're significantly more expensive. Metal can be highly polished to achieve that sort of airflow but that requires a lot of time and effort which translates into emptying out your pockets a lot more. They are also much heavier.

 

You act like Subaru is the only car maker in existence to use a plastic manifold. Plenty of car manufacturers do, including BMW, whom I don't believe to be considered cheap... especially because they use it on some M3s.

 

I've noted that metal or plastic intake makes little actual difference. Both suffer heatsoak be it with different profiles. Ultimately every car, intake metal or plastic, will suffer from heatsoak in stop and go traffic. Experienced the hell of traffic in a bunch of cities, some with higher average temps.

 

No, I'm disappointed they didn't build it to a higher standard. I'm generally disappointed with most of the poor engineering of their motors.

[rob-2]

They cheaped out on the hoods to they should definitely be carbon fiber

 

Looks like you got screwed. All my body pannels are carbon fiber and painted white

[iNVAR]

Looks like you got screwed. All my body pannels are carbon fiber and painted white

 

Too bad your car keeps Falling On It's Face

 

You're a strange fella. You seem to complain a lot about how your LGT has this and that problem and that you're disappointed with so and so and it's poorly designed and it should have been done a different way, etc. etc.

 

Why do you even still have your car? Why did you even bother to go stage 2? I would've thought after your thread (linked above) you would've just ditched the car.