Finally Test Drove A Legacy GT - NOT IMPRESSED

[eles1]

What's an MS6? Google doesnt really tell me anything...

 

MS6 = MazdaSpeed6. It's the turbo/AWD version of the Mazda6 sport sedan. It should compete directly with the LGT in price and performance. 273hp/280tq, I believe, but it weighs a little more. Should be available by the end of summer. It's an in-line 4, not a boxer - but nobody's perfect

[John M]

The car that was driven had ~6k miles on it. Do you honestly think the dealership put premium gas in it? Hell no!! They're extreme tightwads and they'll put the weakest brew in it they can. Then they have customers & staff beat on it for a few thousand miles, guaranteeing that the ECU is in full timing retard mode.

 

I think he got a dud. I wasn't exactly blown away by the car's speed when I bought it either, but it was because every car I've owned for the previous decade was quite a bit faster. It does well for a stock sedan though and it holds a huge amount of potential, far more than what other auto makers are putting out today.

[DKB_SATX]

I believe that my dealer keeps Super in their forced-induction cars... the salesman reminded me that the car requires Super, the salesman reminded the porter to fill it up with Super when I was picking up the car, the service writer and the shop foreman both verified that I was using Super when I complained of the surging/hesitation/whateverYouWantToCallIt... it definitely seems like North Park Subaru knows they need Super.

 

DKB

[pdw]

Realize one thing about GM cars. GM likes to make the throttle tip in very steep. That is, they make the first, small amount of travel in the pedal open up the throttle a lot. It's not linear. Mercedes does the exact opposite. If you drive one, you'll think it's a dog because the throttle has such a long travel and the first 20% of travel doesn't do much. Floor one with a good engine and you'll have a different experience.

 

As for your dealer experience, well, I get the impression you're young. Dealers do that to younger people. Yes, it sucks but it's the way it is. If they try that crap again just tell them "I want to drive this car and if I like it, I'll buy it. Do you have the car?" If they don't, walk. I don't know why you bothered driving the non-turbo. You do know it has about 100hp less than the GT right?

 

Finally, an LGT w/manual trans is a quick car and I'll bet it's quicker than your Pontiac unless that's been modded. In fact, I bet a GT with a 5EAT is faster too.

[melayout]

Someone is impressed!!!

[Rollin Wes]

OK, Hogmeat! This is my view on this post. To tell you my background I just purchased a 5eat (Auto) Leg. GT LT Wagon 4 weeks ago. Guess what I traded from.

 

A 2004 White Grand Prix GTP Comp G!

 

 

 

I'd been with the Grand Prix over a year and a half and still frequent Clubgp. I love the forums anything goes section!

 

I loved my Comp G. The tap shift was great, the HUD was awesome, and I really miss the high technology the car had. Like auto headlights - (even activated when the windshield wipers were turned on), auto door locks, DIC that had everything (even trans temp and a boost gauge), the XM SATELITTE RADIO (DAMN SUBBY ), On Star, stabilitrack sport, etc, etc. Oh, and to answer someone’s question, they do have drive by wire throttle. The car is packed with electronics.

 

 

 

The reason I gave it all up for the Leg. I wanted more cargo space and I had looked at SUV's and trucks. Trucks are nice and so are SUV's, but the gas mileage + lack of spirited handling + SLOW = No Fun. That where the Legacy stepped in. The magnum was nice but too heavy of a car and who knows what its reliability and resale will be like in the future.

 

 

 

I choose the auto without choice. If I were a single man, it would have been MT all the way!!

 

 

 

OK, what I like about the Leg over the GTP is this. All Wheel Drive!!!!! Yea, I live in S.C. and don't need it for winter, but ask yourself this Hogmeat! The torque off the line is fun and the wheel spin at demand can be fun, but do you ever just get tired of trying to accelerate quickly from a dead stop? Especially when needing a quick pull out onto a fast road going right or left? I hated doing that in the GTP. Around here there are some roads I frequent that have horrible traffic and sometimes you have to take a window of opportunity quickly. In the GTP I'd try pulling out quickly and all I'd get was lots of wheel spin and no speed until the tires griped at 35 + then I would shoot out fast. All that drama and smoke lead to stinky burning rubber and people thinking I'm a crazy teen! With the Legacy I roll in the throttle quickly with no drama and as the boost hits I just squirt right out into the proper lane and I'm gone, while the GTP is trying to keep up with spinning wheels. And forget about wet weather acceleration. Even the traction control doesn't help with the wheel spin and I might as well be driving a Civic with the GTP’s wet weather acceleration. Straight line dry road acceleration was easy for quick take off and show off with the wheel spin, but those emergency/quick pull outs didn't always go so well and especially in the wet.

 

 

 

I like the handling better too. The Comp G package made the front drive GTP a great handling car but the tendency to plow the front end still made is presence known in the turns where the legacy's better front to rear balance and AWD make it easier to maneuver those loopy highway ramps ! It’s definitely a different feel I had to get used to since all I've ever had is front drive cars, but I am spoiled now and wouldn’t want to go back to what I refer to now as wrong wheel drive .

 

 

 

As far as raw acceleration of the Legacy vs. GTP. Well I say its about the same, just a different feel. I've gotten used to it and at first did not like the low torque feel. The funny thing about it was after I was given a two day test drive in the Legacy GT I grew accustomed to the feel and after stepping back into the GTP for my last week of ownership I realized the Leg GT actually felt better accelerating. I think its the feel of the boost kicking in. It’s like a gradual climax vs. the GTP's quick climax! It just feels more satisfying! Pushing the petal feels like the car just keeps giving more and more the higher the rpm's rise as the GTP gives it all at once. It’s a smooth satisfying turbine feel. The legacy probably does not feel as fast at first because of the GTP while nature to buck the front end and make lots of engine noise at hard acceleration. The Legacy is so much more refined and quiet while doing that. I do have to say thought, the EATON BANSHEE SCREEM of an intake modified GTP is addicting!

 

 

 

All in all I know I made the right decision because the built quality and resale value make it worth loosing the goody features of the GTP! And I a hauled cargo the other day I could never have fit in my GTP. It’s all in what works best and feels best for you, but the Legacy is definitely on par with the GTP speed wise and the AP programmer will be in my future cause you can never have enough powa!

 

 

 

I hope this helps and I'm sure what ever decision you make will be the right one for you. It’s all about what you’re happy with, and if the torque feels better for you then I say stay with the GTP or get a GXP!!!

[Mr. CentralOhioSubarus]

I had the same experience. I was not impressed with the auto. I would not have bought one if I had not gone back and found a manual to test drive.

 

Test drive a manual. It's a much different experience.

[hogmeat]

Wow Rollin! What a great post! It good to see someone going from the exact same car as me (greystone compG).

I can give up some of the electronics; really. For me, a car is all about DRIVING. That's why I'm looking to get into a manual car with good handling and capabilites.

All your points about the wet traction, dry traction, handling, etc are DEAD-ON.

Dont even get me started about interior feel; squeak squeak rattle rattle....

 

Something I'd like to ask you about is, how does the steering feel to you, compG vs LGT? I mean, at low speeds, the Pontiacs assist was soooo smooth and easy, in the LGT it takes much much more force. Kinda surprised me...

 

Alot of what people said about the low grade gas could be true; 89 all the way; in addition, being beat on by everyone. The owner of the dealership was back from an extended trip when I got it, and it was full of golf clubs and stuff in the trunk (at least 100 lbs, if not MORE...trunk was JAM-PACKED), and like said my gf, 125lbs, and the dealer 200lbs. That's 400+ extra pounds to slow it down. IN addition, i could tell it was beat on since there was a radar detector in the windshield. Add 400 lbs, low grade gas, lower timing, well, yah, even in my TQ monster that'd slow me down....

 

I mean, I can only imagine the difference between a well maintained 5spd vs a weighed down, beat on auto. From all the comments on here, it looks to be I got a dud of a test drive, and will have a better one this weekend!

 

 

BTW: I'll certainly add the Mazdaspeed6 to my "cars to look at" list. That'll take the list to 2. LOL!!!

 

BTW 2: As for why I even drove the non-turbo...I drove 65 miles 1 way to see the car...i was gonna drive SOMETHING.

[TSiWRX]

I guess I'll chime in, too.

 

My thoughts are in-line, in no particular order, with those of AWDpower, John M, and Subietonic.

 

That turbo 2.5GT you drove for your test, hogmeat, must have been neglected or is a total dud. There's no way that it, with that kind of mileage, should have been such a dog. "ZERO" power below 3K RPM should not have been evident, as the 2.5L does pull decently well, even mated with the 5EAT - at least it did feel much better than the 4EAT slushbox mated with my wife's "05 WRX.

 

Try another test vehicle, be it a 5MT or 5EAT.

 

Having driven more powerful front-drivers -many of them "tuned" per the usual import sport-compact trend- for most of my adult life, I would definitely say that my first time in the LGT, she simply never "felt" that fast, seat-of-the-pants.

 

Winky, my LGT, actually was my replacement for a 300 whp., tuned, turbocharged '95 Eagle Talon. The turbo in that mildly tuned ride (nothing to write home about, it was a 13-second car, traction, or lack thereof, being the biggest issue) hit rather hard, but also came on-song at around only 2400 RPM. Thus, when I first got in to Winky, I thought that she felt rather slow, especially as with so much sound-deadening, there was very little aural feedback as compared to my previous "boy-racer" rides.

 

What I did note, however, was how fast I had to start grabbing the next gear up (this was, of course, in a 5MT LGT).

 

I remember, distinctly, looking down at the tach (as, to me, at the time, the LGTs presented a lack of visceral feedback -no noise, and hardly any vibrations- so I couldn't judge gearshifts as I normally did in my loud-as-all-doomsday and vibrate-'till-yoy're-numb DSMs) and thinking:

 

"Huh, better grab second...."

 

and just a blink later

 

"Uh Oh, better grab third...."

 

It wasn't until I had nearly topped out third gear that I caught my first glimpse of the speedo. Thinking that I was cruising at barely 45 MPH, I was astonished that I'd nearly tripled the posted speed limit!

 

The car I test-drove was my Winky - also, at the time, with about 6K miles on the ODO. Yes, Winky was a demo, and although the dealer did offer me a completely new, albeit silver, LGT with the same equipment as Winky, for the same price, I still decided to go with Winky, as I simply fell in-love with her.

 

Did she feel fast? No.

 

Was she fast? For a completely bone-stock 4-door "family sedan," at under $27K ?

 

You bet your ass.

 

The LGT will feel distinctly different from a powerful front-driver simply because of its lack of commotion and its absolute composure while you're attaining very, very respectable straight-line speeds.

 

Certainly, your GP will feel blisteringly fast - and will sound so, too (and did, from that very impressive video)..... I know that my FWD DSMs' certainly did.

 

But if you've ever had the chance to experience an AWD launch, and the rather composed way in which such a slingshot attains speed and totally annhiliates whatever FWD or RWD is in the next lane over for the hole-shot, you'll quickly come to understand that dramma doesn't equal "fast."

 

 

Put the numbers up, and an 5EAT LGT should just about break-even with your GTP. Both out of the hole as well as at the trap, those numbers are just about identical.

 

Against a 5MT, with a competent driver behind the wheel, the LGT should reach 60 MPH at over a second faster than the GTP ( a proper AWD launch is a feat to behold ), followed by about a half-second's lead at the trap (where the GTP's lesser driveline loss is helping it make up for lost time).

 

Now, as for 5EAT vs. 5MT ?

 

That issue's been debated to death here on LGT.com - a quick search will net you plenty of both facts and fiction.

 

For me, the two are about equal in terms of what's given up, and what's gained.

 

I simply opted for the 5MT as I *love* rowing through the gears.

 

And that said, having had a daily driver on an ACT 2600 clutch, with a push that's rated at right around 40-45 lbs of pedal pressure, my left leg feels just fine with the LGT's, uh, rather MUCH lighter-effort clutch, even for stop-and-go traffic.

[SUBY3]

Got rid of the STI cause I drive in So CAL traffic. I dont miss shifting and I can relax alot more in the car. I miss my STI but not a practical car for everyday use.

Please keep in mind the LGT was designed to compete with the Luxury sedans not the off the lot rice cookers like the STI and EVO.

Swap the UP and DP and the lag is way better.

I will be taking the Legacy to buttonwillow in a couple of weeks to see how the 5EAT handles true performance driving.

 

Just my dos centavos

[MDTURBO]

I had an auto loaner while I waited for my m5. I would say the manual is a lot more responsive than the auto. The auto seemed to be dead until boost hit, then took off like a bat outta... anyway, go to another dealership, and test drive the m5.

[Rollin Wes]

hogmeat, the steering is different like you mentioned, but I have not noticed it bothering me. I have had one instance since owning the Legacy that it seemed real hard to crank the wheel, but that was during a low speed quick maneuver in a parking lot playing around and it definitely was nothing that would cause an accident. If was like the steering could not boost quick enough, but I think that’s just the system a lot of foreign cars use. I know several Hondas I have driven like this do the same. The magnasteer II in the Prix is very nice, but I don't think you will be disappointed by the Legacy's steering because of this. It seems just fine. One cool thing about the Legacy is the cooling fins on the steering line under the hood. It’s supposed to act as a cooler for the steering fluid. Don't know how effective it really is, but the idea is nice. The Legacy does have noticeably tighter steering in parking lots making it more maneuverable.

 

The interior does seem a lot nicer than the Prix. Those squeaky interior parts were beginning to drive me nuts. My 00 Grand Am did not rattle as much after 4 years as the Prix did. Don't know what was up with that. Also, the frameless windows on the Legacy make the doors sooo much lighter and easier to open than the Prix. Let’s see, I also like the projector headlights much better and the real red on the instrument lights look classier as well as the awesome LED dash lights. That’s about all I can think of right now, but if you have any other comparison questions please ask and I will give my best opinion.

[Rollin Wes]

The 5eat is much quicker feeling in sport or manual mode vs. the regular drive mode. If you are to test another auto make sure to drive in those two modes and test them out. Sport mode seems to spool faster and I know it holds the RPM's higher.

[Mblock66]

Well this thread has gotten WAY out of control. If everyone wants to play subaru car salesman and convince him to buy an LGT b/c it was the 5EAT that was the cause of his disliking, then have at it.

 

Coming from a TQ-y FWD car it is going to feel different. He was an auto before and he drove an auto now. So it isn't that he NEEDS to drive the 5MT to feel the difference. In fact auto to auto is a BETTER comparo for him since that is what he is used to driving.

 

All I have to say is good luck in your car search and hopefully you find what you want. This is my 1st turbo car and I love it. And yes I have the 5EAT coming from a Acura CL Type s and a 350 hp+ Z28. So I know where you are coming from.

 

And it is a myth that turbo + auto = bad. A ton of the legendary supra turbos that ran like runaway trains were autos. They were simply faster then the stick equivelant in the same vehicle.

 

my 2 cents

 

good luck

[hogmeat]

Thanks for the replies TSI and Rollin;

You guys need to convince Mblock66 that I'm not asking to be "convinced" of anything. I mean, why can't this forum just have a discussion?

If a thread gets too much attention, people say it's out of control; or they lock it, or what not. I say we need MORE threads that get many on the board all together for a good discussion and picking apart of an issue.

 

Like I had mentioned before, it really felt as if there was ZERO power at all, off the line. I mean, I hit the gas, and it was like I was in neutral until 3500 RPM, in which I DID NOTICE the slingshoty effect.

 

It'll all just come down to how the manual feels.

 

Although, I may start a new thread, but someone mentioned I check out the MazdaSpeed6. OMGWTF so much stuff, for the same price.

Remote Start; Steering Wheel controls; MP3 player; all the same heated mirrors and seats, autodimming homelink mirror, etc etc. 270HP and 280TQ. hmmmm?

How does it's AWD system compare to the subies?

[Mblock66]

Oh I think you read my thread wrong. I wasn't saying that you WANT the convincing it just seems that you post a thread saying that you were disappointed and everyone has every reason under the sun to disprove that. I never said you wanted to be convinced.

 

People like cars or anythign for that matter for their own reasons. I read the entire thread and it just seemed that everyone wanted to tell you why you didn't like it hahaha, if you didn't you have your reasons and that is enough. I was just saying that its cool if you don't. I understand the TQ on demand since I had a Z28 and a 68' GTO prior to this car. It DOES feel like you are in neutral compared to those. But I bought it for the best AWD system on the planet and the available upgrades

 

Like someone else said on here, for $1000-$1500 you can take that slow 5EAT and make it a 5.0 0-60 car. I am plenty cool with that! Mazda looks nice too but do a search there are tons of threads on here discussing pros and cons of both.

 

Their AWD version being one con....

[hogmeat]

 

Their AWD version being one con....

 

Dammit!

 

I was hoping someone wasnt going to say that...

 

I just read on the website it's 100% front unless it's needed at the rear. ghey.

 

It's still certainly a contender.

 

If I can steer my own thread in a different direction, what is everyone's opinions/comparisons on the subie AWD vs the Mazda "F/AWD"

 

(PS please dont move my thread )

[eles1]

Dammit!

 

I was hoping someone wasnt going to say that...

 

I just read on the website it's 100% front unless it's needed at the rear. ghey.

 

It's still certainly a contender.

 

If I can steer my own thread in a different direction, what is everyone's opinions/comparisons on the subie AWD vs the Mazda "F/AWD"

 

(PS please dont move my thread )

 

The 50/50 split of the MT Subaru (45/55 front/rear for the auto, I believe) is more desirable to most enthusiast drivers. However, I think many people are pre-judging the MS6's handling characteristics because it's FWD biased. The fact is, nobody (except perhaps some magazine editors) has had a chance to drive this car and we really don't know how it will handle. You would be doing yourself a dis-service if you didn't at least drive the MS6 before buying something else.

 

As far as the front-biased AWD being "ghey", how would you describe a FWD Grand Prix??

 

If you do test the MS6, let us know how it performs. I, for one, would be very interested.

[hogmeat]

 

As far as the front-biased AWD being "ghey", how would you describe a FWD Grand Prix??

 

If you do test the MS6, let us know how it performs. I, for one, would be very interested.

 

Why do you think I'm getting rid of the Prix? heh heh....

 

anywho, I'll do my best to test drive one, if the dealer has one! I'd be certain to post up a review

[tantal]

yeah, I agree that the Mazda6 is just a wrong wheel drive car with a cherry on top. Plus, the mazdaspeed 6 is not available in a wagon. Of course, the subaru platform is still a fwd platform, they just don't offer fwd since 95 or 96.

 

At least with Mazda, you can get a manual transmission in any body style

 

If I had to choose, I'd take a wrong wheel drive manual over an auto awd or rwd

[Epitaph]

gtp 4 life<3

i miss mine so much..

[SBT]

hogmeat, the steering is different like you mentioned, but I have not noticed it bothering me. I have had one instance since owning the Legacy that it seemed real hard to crank the wheel, but that was during a low speed quick maneuver in a parking lot playing around and it definitely was nothing that would cause an accident. If was like the steering could not boost quick enough, but I think that’s just the system a lot of foreign cars use. I know several Hondas I have driven like this do the same.

 

Some of the heavy feel is due to the tire pressures on the demo cars. If you were to check front to rear and side to side, I'd bet that none were up to spec. Low tire pressure equates to more effort to turn the wheel. Make sure that the tire pressures (cold) are at or 1-2 PSI above spec and you'll see a whole different side to the handling on these cars. Way, way better than any of my other Legacys or any of our other Subes for that matter. Very nice.

 

WRT the MS6 - the AWD is way out of symmetry versus the Subaru. The MS6 has a high-center of gravity I4 with a ton of induction weight added to the that top heavy engine, sitting sideways in the car with the transmission sticking out the end. Talk about torque steer, you'll get it in spades, even if they do put a LSD up front, no way around it with unequal length drive shafts at the front.

 

Now stick a jack-shaft out of the SIDE of the transmission to power the rear wheels and you've got a car that will struggle with torque steer, AND only transfer power to the rear when slip is detected. I for one don't want an AWD vehicle where I have to wait for it to slip and engage. Just doesn't make mechanical sense overall to me. And, I like Subaru's Symmetrical AWD system with a tight, low center of gravity boxer engine, sitting just ahead of a transaxle/rear drive system that has equal-length drive shafts going to all four powered wheels. What a concept.

 

 

SBT

[andrew_j]

I concur with you 100% on your thoughts on auto GT. The 5 speed is a different car in my opinion especially once you understand without thinking where the power is in the engine. Borrow a 5 speed for an hour or two when they get one in.

[pdw]

yeah, I agree that the Mazda6 is just a wrong wheel drive car with a cherry on top. Plus, the mazdaspeed 6 is not available in a wagon. Of course, the subaru platform is still a fwd platform, they just don't offer fwd since 95 or 96.

 

At least with Mazda, you can get a manual transmission in any body style

 

If I had to choose, I'd take a wrong wheel drive manual over an auto awd or rwd

 

Huh? The Mazdaspeed 6 is going to be Haldex like a TT or a Volvo. I've driven Haldex equipped cars like a TT and an S60r. I'd suggest you drive them before passing judgement.

 

As for Subaru platform being FWD, what makes it so? I can only think of one thing and that's that the engine hangs in front of the front axle. The EVO is a FWD platform and nobody can fault it for its handling.

[psucaptainkickass]

I actually was waiting for the Mazdaspeed 6 to come out before I made my final decision. However, the fact that production of the vehicle was pushed back from April to May to June....to whenever the hell it is going to come out now made me nervous. What kind of issues are they having to make them push the release of the back 6-7 months, ridiculous I tell you. Plus, reading the early reviews on the vehicle, noting the price (lots of extra crap that I don't need, which is why I got the unlimited LGT), noting the fake wheel drive, weight, performance, it just seemed like I would have been waiting for a disappointment. Knowing that Subaru has been turbocharging for quite some time, and their build quality I pulled the trigger. I know that Mazda has turboed in the past, but nothing recently. My sister also has a mazda 6 since it was introduced into the market, so I can see how that car has held up after 2 years. She doesn't drive it hard, but the interior is just going to pieces, I knew similar build quality would be present in the MS6. So, yes, I will go test drive it, arriving at the dealership in my LGT, and I will probably be grinning on my drive back home.