hogmeat Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 Soldon: your giving me hope. Your yawning disappointment is exactly how I felt. As soon as i'm able to drive an MT, i'll be all over it. and, 1 second faster? That's huge! I'm pleasantly surprised... It was most certainly worth the couple bucks and 10 mins of my time. CLICK HERE FOR THE HOGZAUST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusDubya77 Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 This is becoming the most over discussed topic on this form..Autos vs. Manals.. Now before this becomes another pointless discussion lets bring this bad boy back on track..The dealer...You being in Iowa, how long would it take for you to get to a maor city with a Subaru dealer that you can work with. Its obvious that you have internet capability, so ave you tried a search for other Scooby dealers?? :woowoo:check out the Diamond Gray Metallic Monster!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogmeat Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 Well, I have 3 Subie dealers within 75 miles each. 1 in Waterloo, IA 60 miles 1 in Des Moines, IA 65 miles 1 in Cedar Rapids, IA 70 miles I choose the closest that claimed to have what i wanted....so bleh! I think the state capital is about the biggest city we have, and should have some decent cars! Other than that, not looking to drive 400 miles when i have ones closer that can dealer trade and whatnot.... I'm pleasantly surprised... It was most certainly worth the couple bucks and 10 mins of my time. CLICK HERE FOR THE HOGZAUST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest clawdnb Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 am i the only one on here who thinks you need a srt4? im serious about that one....you dont need to be sold on a car you dont want and are going to dog on before you even own one...do yourself, and the subaru community a favor and get the neon, or maybe a cobaltSS....so what if its fwd, its a platform you understand coming from your old car and it will give you that torque steer/tire spin that you love so dear while being slightly qwicker in a strait line than the subaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusDubya77 Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 well, sometimes you gotta pay to play..I had a buddy drive from El Paso to NC to get a better deal on a SAAB 9-3 :woowoo:check out the Diamond Gray Metallic Monster!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fzanetti Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 am i the only one on here who thinks you need a srt4? im serious about that one....you dont need to be sold on a car you dont want and are going to dog on before you even own one...do yourself, and the subaru community a favor and get the neon, or maybe a cobaltSS....so what if its fwd, its a platform you understand coming from your old car and it will give you that torque steer/tire spin that you love so dear while being slightly qwicker in a strait line than the subaru So from IA, let it rain or snow, and the Subie will take mostly ANY of those and other Sport sedans/coupes available.. .;-) Hehehehehehe Puh-leeeez..... To compare a: - 3.8L pushrod V6 - Eaton M90 roots-type supercharger - 240 hp / 280 ft-lb - 1/4 mi approx. 14.8 @ 92mph - 0-60 in 6.8 sec with a LGT, even the 5EAT, is a no brainer, LGT all the way!!! Now if you need the tire spin, understeer, basically a FWD (btw, I don't drive wrong wheel drive cars), you will be better off buying a Cobalt SS Supercharger, or a Chrysler SRT4.... Bottom line: If you didn't like the car, keep searching and driving others, until you find one you really like and so does your pocket... Cheers, Flavio Zanetti Boston, MA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest clawdnb Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 maybe he needs a altima-ser.....its a pretty nice car and is about the same as the LGT for all practical purposes including price and build quality except its way torquey and will torque steer and never grip when you step on the gas....might want to test drive one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWDpower Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Maybe the demo car you drove was a bit abused/not broken in properly? Or- here's a very likely theory- filled with 87 octane gas? That would KILL performance, the ECU would be in "save the engine from these fools" mode. Retarded timing + lowered boost = not so much fun. That happens a lot at dealerships. I don't see the auto as a dog- I own a few powerful cars (300+hp Talon, 260+hp Eclipse, 300+hp Titan) and still felt the auto LGT had a good punch. Try to find a 5spd, but I'd try out a different auto if I were you, to see if that were the case. Jason K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitestar Pilot Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Listen, Hogmeat, the Legacy is a more refined car than the Pontiac you are used to. I myself came from a Trans Am to the Legacy. The Legacy is quiet. It accelerates much more evenly (so much so that I have bounced off the rev limiter a couple of times not feeling the end of second gear). I can promise you this, however. If you take the 5MT on the highway, and drop it to 3rd at 65mph, it will make you very happy. Slam it into 4th around 85mph, and you'll be at 110 before you know it. I don't know how many bolt ons you had on your supercharged Grand Prix, but stock vs. stock, the Legacy GT will take one. The Legacy will last longer, has room for performance upgrades, and it will give you the AWD advantage when the Iowa winter approaches. -- P.S. No one should ever recommend the purchase of a Neon. -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Well, I have 3 Subie dealers within 75 miles each. 1 in Waterloo, IA 60 miles 1 in Des Moines, IA 65 miles 1 in Cedar Rapids, IA 70 miles I choose the closest that claimed to have what i wanted....so bleh! I think the state capital is about the biggest city we have, and should have some decent cars! Other than that, not looking to drive 400 miles when i have ones closer that can dealer trade and whatnot.... Oh, BTW. Don't bother with Ramsey in Des Moines. No stock. NOTHING. A few outbacks and a ABP 2.5i Legacy Sedan. a couple of 06 outbacks, though... No more Legacys for a couple weeks at least. I drive through that lot every time I am in DSM, and was there yesterday. I posted a longer account of a discussion with a know-nothing salesman in another thread. Search for my posts on August 5-6. I think you might have better luck going to the quad city area. It sounds like you live somewhere near Marshaltown or Tama/Toledo, or maybe a bit south of there. I live near Ames, so I have DSM, and I go to Omaha, NE regularly, because family lives near there. Stan Olsen in Omaha tends to have more stock than DSM at any given time. I saw my first '05 LGT there months before Ramsey in DSM had one in stock. I tested a 50 mile LGT Limited 5MT about 6 months ago at Ramsey. I was actually quite pleased. it is just a large-ish 4cyl until the turbo kicks in, but with a manual, you can really get what you want from it, even below 4k. After break-in I am sure that it can be handled quite effectively. It isn't going to behave like a bigger, torquier, slower-revving engine, though. I am used to a 140hp I4 miata with a stick, so I am well in the practice of shifting effectively to make the most out of 4 pistons, and that does help, because the legacy drives much the same way, just easier because there is more power (and more weight to the car...) With all these Iowa Members, we're gonna have to arrange a get-together someday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklin Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Your'e right Tantel my 5EAT Is such a piece of *hit and it is definitely not sporty, it just ripped off 0-60 in 4.87 (on the latest G-Tech) That was done tonight 83 temp / 87% humidity Wonder if he has checked out the SRT4:lol: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 hogmeat, During the test-drive, did you push it to redline ? Did you try Sport or Manu-matic mode? If you didn't test all the car's abilities, then get another test-drive and put it thru its paces. I would say you weren't impressed because as AWDPower stated, you're used to FWD and Supercharger power curve which is very different from an AWD and Turbocharged power curve. The composure and handling of the GTP is probably much less stable than the LGT, and so under heavy acceleration you feel that the GTP is faster because it is very front-end happy. The LGT's drive-by-wire is different than the GTP, does it even have drive-by-wire, and since it was your first time, you probably could not get used to it in one test-drive. The LGT is decievingly fast because it is such a good handler. If you test-drive it again and you're not satisfied with it, don't buy it. If you test-drive it again, and try to convince yourself based solely on other people's comments or you think you will like it later on, don't buy it. I suggest you test-drive a GT for 24hrs to get a feel for the different AWD+Turbo power curve, drive-by-wire and handling. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj808 Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 ^ +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGT Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Hogmeat....just a bit of my experience from over the weekend. My future brother-in-law was in town with his family. They have an '02 Mustang GT with auto and some serious mods (Bassani exhaust, Steeda suspension, etc)...a VERY LOUD car. Both times he road with me in my 5mt wagon, he got out feeling motion sickness. He was not used to riding (instead of driving) #1, but # 2 was that the car was SO fast and smooth that he didn't realize the velocity available due to the utter lack of noise. I bet this is part of your issue. Coming from a moderately quick and loud car to a genuinely fast one that's quiet, your head will play tricks on you. I agree that the 5eat and turbo combo is not ideal....my brother was going to buy an Outback and he tested the XT and LLBean. He settled on the LLBean with H6 motor because he liked the smoothness of power delivery with auto. Note: he is not a 'car guy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlrtime Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Aw, come on, I live in a large city, have three manual cars, and drive around all the time. I only eat in the car on the highway, though. There are large cities in NM? ABQ is ok, come up the NE and drive in some of these cities and you will see why a lot of us prefer AT. If I lived in a less densely populated area I probably would have bought a MT, but not worth it here. The city I live in has 3x more people/mi^2 than ABQ. To make this on-topic, the OP should be driving cars they intend on buying. What is the point of test driving a 2.5i AT, most people would know ahead of time they would be disappointed. .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deer Killer Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I felt the same way when the first GT I found was an auto... Boring and annoying. Sure you can start getting numbers closer to the MT if you brake-torque the thing to 3k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBT Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Hogmeat, Welcome to the forum and congratulations on at least considreing the LGT. You are miles ahead in your thinking versus 99.9% of the general public who haven't got the LGT anywhere on their radar. That's okay though, because the rest of us LGT guys and gals do want to keep the exclusivity to ourselves... I think the 5EAT to 5MT discussion has been well articulated by the members. I'm a MT guy, always have been and will be until they pry it from my cold, dead hands. But that's after 42 years of driving stick and I'm still loving it. Below 3,000 RPMs in either MT or AT variant the LGT is going to be less torquey off the line than even the 2.5i because you're dealing with a lower compression engine. But once you wake the LGT from its light sleep then Katie bar the door. That's true for either the AT or MT models. The AT, with its torque converter, loses something (albeit small) in the translation from "go fast" on the pedal to engine spool up and crankshaft delivering juice to the TC, and ultimately to the transmission. The MT, OTOH, responds immediately, so there's a tactile, visceral component of you controlling the power delivery compared to the AT taking that function out of your hands. The 5EAT is 45/55 rear-biased whereas the 5MT is 50/50 so driving dynamics are slightly different between the two models. So those three areas: Tc vs clutch, slightly different gearing between the two transmissions, and center differential torque split ratios, are where the real differences lie. That said, and now that I have my MT LGT Ltd Wagon, I would go out and buy any LGT in 5EAT garb. The 5EAT LGT is really a great car. One thing you may want to consider, especially since you live in snow country, is the ability of the 5EAT to start out in 2nd and stay in 2nd gear. I've used this feature numerous times on my 4EAT Subes to get out of snow-bound situations with a lot less wheel spin and drama than I ever have with my MTs. In the final analysis, you cannot beat the LGT for its power, amazing AWD capability, refinement, price point and legenday longevity in either variant. Recommend the Limited so you benefit from the heated seats during those cold Iowa winters. Good luck with whatever you decide. SBT - Pro amore Dei et patriam et populum - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fzanetti Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 hogmeat, During the test-drive, did you push it to redline ? Did you try Sport or Manu-matic mode? If you didn't test all the car's abilities, then get another test-drive and put it thru its paces. I would say you weren't impressed because as AWDPower stated, you're used to FWD and Supercharger power curve which is very different from an AWD and Turbocharged power curve. The composure and handling of the GTP is probably much less stable than the LGT, and so under heavy acceleration you feel that the GTP is faster because it is very front-end happy. The LGT's drive-by-wire is different than the GTP, does it even have drive-by-wire, and since it was your first time, you probably could not get used to it in one test-drive. The LGT is decievingly fast because it is such a good handler. If you test-drive it again and you're not satisfied with it, don't buy it. If you test-drive it again, and try to convince yourself based solely on other people's comments or you think you will like it later on, don't buy it. I suggest you test-drive a GT for 24hrs to get a feel for the different AWD+Turbo power curve, drive-by-wire and handling. Great write up!!!! No matter what we tell you, you will need to be happy and enjoyed with your new car purchase and not take it for granted, so in order for you to buy, you can't listen to other people's minds and do what you are really willing to... This is my truly 0.02... Flavio Zanetti Boston, MA P.S. Don't consider that 99.99% of the people on this thread and elsewhere would consider the LGT over the GTP either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deimos Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 While own a Manual LGT, I've test driven an auto and it had plenty of low end. While not quite as quick as a manual, it is certainly not lacking. It's faster then the best sports sedans (and many sports cars) of just a few years ago. I haven't driven a supercharded GTP. I'm sure it's quite torquey with a blown 3.8 V6. FWD cars also feel fast because of the lack of traction and torque steer give the sensation of power. The LGT doesn't have that turbo "hit," more like a seemless swell of power. It is misleading until you look down at the speedo, and see you are going much faster then you though. It's also very quiet, even at WOT. In my old DSM's you could feel when the turbo spooled, and you got that rush of extra accelleration. It felt fast, because it was kind of a suprise for the driver. Kind of like how any car always feels faster from the passenger seat. When I but bigger turbos on my DSMs, they felt slower from the drivers seat, since the turbo spooled more expectedly. But the cars were much faster. Jason K. +10 This is the thing. Plus you may have had an unbroken in car, big difference. As Jason states you also need to "roll" the gas as well because slamming it to the ground results in lag. Also from what I understand about the AT, Sport or Manual mode makes a very big difference and brake torquing is required to achieve the 0-60 in low-mid sixes. I have an MT LGT. Prior to purchase I considered and test drove the WRX and the new Mustang, both MT and *backtoback*. The LGT was noticebly faster and more torquey than the WRX and very close to the Mustang in power. The car is great and with just a grand in mods you can be pulling sub 5 sec to 60 and low 13 1/4s. Here is an Autoweek article from a few weeks ago comparing the MT LGT to the double priced 340HP v8 S4. LGT 0-60 5.23, 1/4 13.95 @ 97.5 http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14753&page=3&highlight=autoweek Here is a vid of a stock manual LGT, of John M from this board, pulling a sub 14 sec run which still wasnt perfect given the 95 MPH trap. http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3915 Lots of guys here are getting great numbers with mildly modified ATs as mentioned above. Test drive another one at a reasonable delear, if they are bad with the sell the service wont be good either. My dealer was amazing with the sale and let me drive what I wanted the moment I walked onto the lot (and Im 26). Otherwise as someone else mentioned an Altima SE-R might be more to your liking as you will feel the torque steer and thus sense the power more. Heres mine with springs Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepFreeze2 Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Just skimmed the previous posts in this thread, sorry if this was already covered. I can say from personal experience with my 5EAT that you kind of have to "learn to drive it" to get the most preformance out of it. I believe it is due to the drive by wire system. The cars (both MT and AT) do respond better after being broken in, though. By all means, get what you want. You have to pay for it. MT vs. AT will always be a debated topic. YA RLY!!! Home of +2500 useless posts!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tripod Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 The 5MT is about .2-.4 seconds quicker to 60;) Yeah, Autoweek got the MT to hit 60 in 5.28 seconds stock. Love how auto guys keep telling themselves untruths just to make themselves feel better. I've driven MANY turbo cars both auto and manuals and their is no comparison...autos and turbos in street cars just make for sluggish acceleration when compared to the manuals. Oh, and to the original poster....drive the manual...your disappointments in performance will vanish. We need to get a group of people together with both autos and manual LGT's and do some track runs...so the auto guys can actually see the difference instead of just making up things. And then go for some highway runs and make the point even MORE clear, then some canyon runs so the auto guys can lose sight of the manual LGT's. Autos have their place for stop and go traffic and ease of commuting and such...and they DON'T completely take away all the performance from a car...but unless that "auto" is VW/Audi's DSG, a manual is always going to be more involving and sporty/quicker. Is the LGT auto slow? No Is it as fast, fun, involving as the LGT manual? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avishar Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Then, even though the website says they have several 2005/2006 GT's (with 2 manuals) in stock, what a surprise...there are NONE. I'm stuck driving a non-turbo version, with zero options....and even worse, an auto. What a terribly unexciting car. I mean, my g/f's civic has more pep... So, we take it on an extended drive...when we get back, there is magically a GT sitting on the lot. hmmmm? anyways we get to drive that... any suggestions....? Got one suggestion that may help in the future.... Drive the turbo version edit: May want to change the title of the thread, what you drive was definately not a GT if it had no turbo, if you are still confused if the car had no hood scoop then it had no turbo and the turbo is the huge difference of which you are missing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerami1981 Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Actually i think you can get heated seats w/o the LTD version..i think..ltd basically adds leather, a hole in the roof and a few different power directions on the front seats...roughly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melayout Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 yup, my ass toasts up pretty fast in my cloth seats. I keed I keeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deimos Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Yeah, Autoweek got the MT to hit 60 in 5.28 seconds stock. Love how auto guys keep telling themselves untruths just to make themselves feel better. I've driven MANY turbo cars both auto and manuals and their is no comparison...autos and turbos in street cars just make for sluggish acceleration when compared to the manuals. Oh, and to the original poster....drive the manual...your disappointments in performance will vanish. We need to get a group of people together with both autos and manual LGT's and do some track runs...so the auto guys can actually see the difference instead of just making up things. And then go for some highway runs and make the point even MORE clear, then some canyon runs so the auto guys can lose sight of the manual LGT's. Autos have their place for stop and go traffic and ease of commuting and such...and they DON'T completely take away all the performance from a car...but unless that "auto" is VW/Audi's DSG, a manual is always going to be more involving and sporty/quicker. Is the LGT auto slow? No Is it as fast, fun, involving as the LGT manual? No Lets avoid the wars now, deep inside people know the facts "East side is dee best, no West side is dee best" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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