Impatient Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 ^ my question too..or available to someone, somewhere also: http://www.fredbeansparts.com/pdfs/PrintMSDS_PDF.pdf so Extra S is admittedly non-synthetic...or at least was in 1998 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 At the risk of pissing of Bac5.2 or some others, I'll share some reading I did....which may or may not be relevant: I mean who would trust something written by/for a Mitsu Evo owner: You aren't going to piss me off, it is your car not mine. http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine-turbo-drivetrain/384612-redline-heavy-shockproof-gear-oil-amsoil-severe-gear-svg-7.html specifically posts #95 & 96 caught my attention; 96 copied below: Alex, In the Evolution transfer case and rear differential for street use I would recommend the 75W90. In the transaxle a 75W85 viscosity gear oil is called for we would recommend a blend of about equal parts MTL and MT-90. The ShockProof gear oils are full synthetic products, designed and better suited for racing and some speciality applications. They do contain a moly component that can centrifuge out and then recombined. They also contain a friction modifier so wouldn't be recommended in synchro equipped transmissions or transaxles as they can be too slippery. Regards, Dave Red Line Oil It's no surprise to me that Redline keeps trying to talk people out of buying their Shockproof products (for some reason). They told me not to use it. Now I have no idea what "Alex" asked "Dave," or which Shockproof they were talking about. In fact, the whole post might be spoofed. And don't take the MTL & MT-90 recommendation as relevant to Subaru. A few things: Judging by the thread title (in the link, I didn't care to read the thread), they are discussing heavyweight shockproof. Second, it's plainly obvious why they "talk people out of buying Shockproof". It carries no API certification. Their recommendation of Shockproof would hold them liable in the event of a fluid-related failure. I can recommend it all day, because it's a simple suggestion. They cannot, because they make the stuff. Third, the concept of a fluid being "too slippery" for synchro operation is a convenient excuse. In reality, that's simply not how synchros work. Notice the word "can" in the portion where they say "as they can be too slippery". "Can" doesn't mean "are". Again, Shockproof is not API certified. They need SOME reason to not recommend it. The simple fact is, synchros do not operate on surface contact friction, but rather on fluid film thickness and shear properties. Shockproof, in it's lightweight variety, has suitable viscosity and a high film thickness to ensure proper synchro operation in a Subaru 5MT. Fourth, obviously the MTL/MT-90 is poor practice in a Subaru. But post #95 also made me think: ...if you run high horse power lets say over 450 and you drag the car like a track ***** using shockproof will help your ring and gear to reduce some of that metal to metal contact, keep in ming that shockproof is a dirty oil and you will have to change it more often... Of course #95 is from an Amsoil reseller, but think about it: BAC said to change transaxle fluid often. So it might be worth beating the drum that perhaps Shockproof and extended (30K+) change intervals are mutually exclusive. (Doesn't mean RLLWSP isn't the best thing going IF you change fluids religiously). You change transmission fluid often, because your trans is constantly shedding metal. Under aggressive driving, when spinning surfaces like synchros and gears DO make contact unintentionally (ham-fisted shifting, or shifting too fast), you are shedding bronze and steel into the gear oil. Bearing and bushing surfaces can wear, further dumping metal into the gear oil. Suspended metal particulates cause further surface damage, accelerating the deposition rate of metal into the oil. Whether you use Amsoil, Shockproof, or Extra-S, this is a concern. I don't recommend more frequent changes with Shockproof/Motul than I would with any other trans fluid. My rules are simple: Use high quality fluids. Replace them often. That goes for every fluid. Oil, trans fluid, brake fluid, PS fluid. The only concession I make is for coolant, where it truly makes no difference what you use unless the car is lacking coolant heat capacity for your application. Recycled coolant is perfectly fine. The other thing I read (elsewhere) is that Motul has a very high VI (Viscosity Index = 222). That was the highest I saw in any gear oil. It "thins" to appropriate 90weight viscosity at 100C (water boiling temp), but is noticeably "thinner" at 40C (what is that..100 degrees F ?) than many competing products. That begs the question, what is the typical operating temperature of a Subaru 5MT transaxle or the rear diff? Of course viscosity is not the same as lubricity or whatever quality we need in a gear oil. Viscosity is an important quality in gear oil, because dynamic viscosity is one of the drivers of shear stress within the fluid. Decrease viscosity, decrease the force required to shear the fluid, and decrease the distance between two moving plates to reach the point where the shear force is less than the shear strength of the fluid. Viscosity is not the only fluid property that drives gearbox performance. One thing to note: Kinematic viscosity is not the same as dynamic viscosity. Kinematic viscosity is the dynamic viscosity divided by the density of the fluid. This matters, because not every fluid has the same coefficient of thermal expansion, which means that density changes with temperature are not consistent from fluid to fluid. So a kinematic viscosity listed at 40C vs. the 100C value, needs to be considered in terms of the respective densities at those temperatures. That means that an increase in density will decrease the kinematic viscosity, even if the dynamic viscosity (the one that matters) doesn't change at all. Kinematic viscosity is useful in fluid system analysis, but is fairly inconvenient when analyzing a stress situation, such as geartrain or synchro performance. Note 2: I see most data sheets do list the Viscosity Index, which is useful as that standardizes a fluids kinematic viscosity with temperature, though it is still a value that relies on kinematic viscosity. Oh well, just my attempt to understand the "why" not just the 'what." Not discounting that "hundreds" of drivers have had excellent results with Shockproof/Motul cocktail (or Amsoil, or Extra-S). It's important to understand the "why", so I hope you understand a little better now. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolmers06LGT Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Thanks BAC for getting my brain into engineering mode this morning. My boss appreciates it! Another question for you: A little while ago, Mike from Infamous was recommending the shockproof/Motul combo, but he was recommending 3qts Motul 300 and .8qt LW shockproof. Since you were speaking about viscosity and film thickness, what is your take on changing the ratio of shockproof to motul? From what I understand about these fluids, Motul 300 has a lower viscosity, film thickness, and is "slicker" than shockproof. The shockproof is essentially adding a factor of safety to the cocktail. What this means to me: The healthier the transmission, the more motul/less shockproof you can run, and vice versa. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impatient Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 I've probably driven the Subaru ~1500 miles since first diving into this topic ass-first (holding my nose), and have physically done nothing, only analysis paralysis. I still have the Motul & the Shockproof ready to put in. This all re-started when I realized I haven't changed the rear diff fluid in my Chevy van...ever! (70K+ whatever the previous owner's mileage???). So the fact that I have close to 20K on the Subaru since its trans oil change, and the fluid is still almost perfectly clear is probably not my biggest problem. But checking the Viscosity Index and 40degree & 100degree Centigrade specs for various fluids got me thinking: could I use synthetic 75w90 in my Chevy instead of the 80w90 it calls for. I found that they changed the recommendation in 2002 from 80-90 to 75-90; mine is a 1999. Anyway, spinning further out of control, I saw that Motul has viscosity at 40degrees around 76, whereas most 75-90's are over 100 at 40degrees. They all gravitate toward 15 or so at the 100degree mark. Now I really doubt the rear-ends operate at 100degrees Centigrade. Not sure about a transmission. So are the 40 & 100degree specs relevant? Or is the fact that Motul is pretty far out to one end of the spectrum at 40degrees relevant? Of course, since Redline won't even publish those specs for its Shockproof, it may be moot, unless you were considering straight Motul. I mean I think I get it for an engine: the engine is supposed to get up to 100degrees, so any viscosity below that temp is probably too "thick," and the sooner the engine gets to 100degrees and the oil thins, the better. But maybe trans or diff makers spec'd their fluids to run at cooler temps (therefore thicker), therefore a thinner Motul at lower temps might be less suitable....all by itself. Add some Shockproof (or a lot of Shockproof), and the cocktail viscosity is probably higher...at least at lower temps. Hence: But if I were a betting man, I'd wager I'll end up with the a Motul / Shockproof mix in the Subaru, and something less exotic in the Chevy. BAC could do me a favor and comment on the operating temp thoughts above. And I'd be interested in the answer to Nolmer's question too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impatient Posted September 20, 2013 Share Posted September 20, 2013 Their recommendation of Shockproof would hold them liable in the event of a fluid-related failure. I can recommend it all day, because it's a simple suggestion. They cannot, because they make the stuff. So who the heck are they making it for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impatient Posted September 21, 2013 Share Posted September 21, 2013 Found this buried in Redline's website. Not sure how out of date it is...probably no more so than the 1998 data sheet for Extra S (dino) I posted above http://www.redlineoil.com/content/files/tech/Gear%20Lube%20PDS%202-09.pdf Maybe BAC can tell us the difference between Lightweight and Lightweight Shockproof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I'm off to have my Redline/Motul cocktail put in. I'll do 2.5l of Redline, 1l of the Motul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moddiction Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Man people on here make it hard to know what fluids to use. Talk about too much info.. lol. WWW.MODDICTION.COM Moddiction Stainless steel and Titanium shift knobs. Drivetrain, suspension, brakes, exhaust, cooling, fuel, gauges+MUCH more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I've been running Redline 75w90NS in there for quite a long time (30,000 miles, if not more). The tech said the fluid was still pretty clear when it came out and there was barely any material on the drain plug magnet. I do notice that it's a bit quieter now though, coasting downhill in 2nd gear was getting noisy, especially after going from OEM DMFW to OEM SMFW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexi Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I've had red line 75w-90ns in my transmission for about 16k now and I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyLegacyGt5speed Posted March 17, 2014 Share Posted March 17, 2014 Hey people. I own a legacy gt 5speed mt. I came to New York to visit familys and will be leaving soon back to Massachusetts soon with 6hrs drive back. Before I leave I'm doing oil change and etc. One thing I'm having trouble on is deciding which one of this two brands I should get at this local store for my tranny fuild royal purple sae 75w90 for the front and back or redline 75w90ns front and 75w90gl for the back. I did a little research online and not much about royal purple on the Lgt and for the redline alot of good feed back. But people in this town in new york who's mostly driving subarus said royal purple is recommended. Yup I asked around lol. As for now idk. New subaru owner in need of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolmers06LGT Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Hey people. I own a legacy gt 5speed mt. I came to New York to visit familys and will be leaving soon back to Massachusetts soon with 6hrs drive back. Before I leave I'm doing oil change and etc. One thing I'm having trouble on is deciding which one of this two brands I should get at this local store for my tranny fuild royal purple sae 75w90 for the front and back or redline 75w90ns front and 75w90gl for the back. I did a little research online and not much about royal purple on the Lgt and for the redline alot of good feed back. But people in this town in new york who's mostly driving subarus said royal purple is recommended. Yup I asked around lol. As for now idk. New subaru owner in need of help. These boxes are very particular due to the fact the gears/synchros are running in the same fluid as the front diff. Lots of people have tried different fluids, there's pages and pages of feedback on here, but long story short, there's only (2) options you should run. -Subaru Extra-S -Motul300(without friction modifiers) + Redline Lightweight Shockproof I've personally only run the motul/redline cocktail, but with great results. Some of the most reputable members on this forum swear by it.. that was enough for me. The best ratio of Motul to Redline is debatable- some run (3)qts Redline + (1)qt Motul, others run (3)qts Motul to (1)qt Redline. I've run both and I personally like the (3)qts Motul to (1)qt Redline, but again that's just my limited personal experience (roughly 45k mi). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moddiction Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 This is the shockproof that people run right? http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=43&pcid=8 WWW.MODDICTION.COM Moddiction Stainless steel and Titanium shift knobs. Drivetrain, suspension, brakes, exhaust, cooling, fuel, gauges+MUCH more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolmers06LGT Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 This is the shockproof that people run right? http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=43&pcid=8 Yes, that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moddiction Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 Thanks! WWW.MODDICTION.COM Moddiction Stainless steel and Titanium shift knobs. Drivetrain, suspension, brakes, exhaust, cooling, fuel, gauges+MUCH more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolmers06LGT Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 You're welcome. I wish we could get the first post of this thread edited to summarize all of the crap that follows it WAYY too much sifting to find any information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted March 19, 2014 Share Posted March 19, 2014 When the gear oil was changed in my car, it only took 3 qts of the redline to show nearly full on the dipstick. Mechanic said that there's always a bit of oil that gets stuck in the transfer box which would cause it to take a little less. Anyway, he ended up not putting in the Motul and ran just the LWSP. It was shifting nice and smooth, but I was a little concerned about cold shifting (Canada, eh?). So he drained about 1/2 qt of the LWSP out and added the Motul in. I'm sure the 2-3 shift was smoother with just the LWSP. It seems a bit notchy again with the Motul added in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonnyLegacyGt5speed Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Thanks! Nolmer06LGT I think imma go with 3qts of redline and 1qt of motul since my family here got extra bottle of redlind bottles laying around. Save myself some $ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moddiction Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I'll try the 3 quarts motul to 1 quart shockproof. I'll see how that works for me. I have a big order coming in so once that's all in I'll change the fluids out. WWW.MODDICTION.COM Moddiction Stainless steel and Titanium shift knobs. Drivetrain, suspension, brakes, exhaust, cooling, fuel, gauges+MUCH more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idiot4hire Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I have 3 bottles of motul in my garage do shoul I order one quart of shockproof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolmers06LGT Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 FYI: Mike from Infamous Performance runs (3) motul to (1) shockproof in his customer cars, while BAC5.2, who has plenty of experience tearing down these transmissions, prefers the (3) shockproof to (1) motul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idiot4hire Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I am going with mike from infamous strictly based on the fact that I have motul already laying around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Who listens to BAC5.2 any more...he hasn't been around for a while... Just joking. The guy's at AZP run straight Motul also. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Goodbarf Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 FWIW , extra - s now goes by a new name. High performance gear oil 75W90 Same sku /part number as extra-s on Fred beans Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Here is the reply I got when I emailed my buddy at my local dealers parts counter, they give me a good discount so not sure if you'll get the same pricing. just looked into this, they stopped doing the 20l cans of it. Now they offer only quarts and call it high performance 75-90 gear oil. the new part # is SOA427V1700 for the qt. it retails at $10.23 per qt and I can sell it to you for $8.18 per qt. there is also a note saying that I have to get it drop shipped from a third party supplier, so im not sure if there is a minimum purchase quantity. Ill have to check with Subaru on that and get back to you 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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