Zero1 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 For what it's worth to the argument the new CVT in the 2.0 GT defaults to a 8 speed automatic gearbox when put in S# mode... Yes but those are preset ratios not actual gears. Maybe you could enlighten us on how the transitions are in both auto and manual shift modes? My 2012 Impreza has the six preset ratios when you shift it into manual mode and the transitions are slow and smooth at best not like a traditional auto in manual mode. It's also a little rev laggy (revs continue high like you're letting the clutch slip too much) which makes it feel a little too bleh for my taste. I'm not doubting where CVT technology COULD go but for the foreseeable future I would not get my hopes up for big power, spirited driving use out of any CVT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hops Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 On recent tests of CVTs with the preset "ratios", acceleration times were tested in both modes. Auto mode was faster. I'd love to drive the 2.0GT with a CVT to see what it's like. Too bad it's not coming here. And hopefully a manual is still available. Buy my cars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Yes but those are preset ratios not actual gears. Maybe you could enlighten us on how the transitions are in both auto and manual shift modes? My 2012 Impreza has the six preset ratios when you shift it into manual mode and the transitions are slow and smooth at best not like a traditional auto in manual mode. It's also a little rev laggy (revs continue high like you're letting the clutch slip too much) which makes it feel a little too bleh for my taste. I'm not doubting where CVT technology COULD go but for the foreseeable future I would not get my hopes up for big power, spirited driving use out of any CVT. The reason the transitions are slow and smooth is because the "gears" are never disengaged as they are in a traditional automatic. Instead of getting no forward thrust between gears, the CVT still gives you thrust as it transitions. Also, when in manual mode, it should feel just like any other auto or manual holding a gear - you'll get the same engine braking when off throttle, you won't get unanticipated gear changes. What you will get is 8 ratios from which to choose, which is 25% more than their current six-speed trannys. It'll be interesting to learn more about when torque-converter lock-up happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL21376 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Are there any performance oriented cars on the market with a CVT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hops Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Nope. Buy my cars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero1 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 The reason the transitions are slow and smooth is because the "gears" are never disengaged as they are in a traditional automatic. Instead of getting no forward thrust between gears, the CVT still gives you thrust as it transitions. Also, when in manual mode, it should feel just like any other auto or manual holding a gear - you'll get the same engine braking when off throttle, you won't get unanticipated gear changes. What you will get is 8 ratios from which to choose, which is 25% more than their current six-speed trannys. It'll be interesting to learn more about when torque-converter lock-up happens. Yes I get this but they are still slow transitions and I was just affirming how it feels. I love the idea of keeping the engine in the optimal powerband range and the idea of having infinitely many gear ratios to maximize power to the ground. I'm by no means against CVT's other than it removes the enjoyable driver interface for me and the tech is not there yet for big power endurance :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hops Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Can we all respect each other's opinions now and move on? Buy my cars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL21376 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Nope. None?!? I wonder why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SubieDriver Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Can we all respect each other's opinions now and move on? But... we can't move on until we have some solid test results... We just have to keep arguing until somebody gets disproved by facts (and then we'll probably still argue about it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero1 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 Higuna has one so let's make him our guinea pig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higuma Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I will report and perhaps post a video once I have had time to shake down my 2.0 after I pick it up on the 22nd... Be patient however as there may be snow and I am not going to go out and rat around with a car that only has a few kms on the odo... As a prelim though - I have driven 2 different demonstrators of the 2.0 GT and all I can say is that you guys that are in love with your manual transmissions might as well start snapping them up now because they are about to become boat anchors... Electronic management of everything in cars including engine, trans etc., is here to stay and it's getting better everyday... I find it amusing how the same people who are "dyed in the wool" manual transmission guys embrace the idea of a 2 liter twin scroll turbo 300hp engine ( electro-managed up the hoohaw which makes all the magic possible btw )... Perhaps these same die hards would prefer to hark back to the days of 400cid 250hp carbureted V8s in 3 ton cars with muncie rock-crusher transmissions... CVT's are here to stay IMO and perhaps it would be best, to just to get on with it and start figuring out a way to make them go faster I have met, known or worked alongside a lot of similar "purists" out there that refused to embrace digital cameras when they arrived on the scene, saying that that had "no soul" and "could not compete" with medium format films and transparencies - let alone 35mm emulsions... Look at where those chumps are today ( only 10 years later ) and then ask yourself if you will be in the same place in 10 years holding onto your ancient 6-speeds and telling everybody how "pure" shifting with a clutch is... sorry - WAS... Warning: this post is meant to be ironic & should not be construed as any expression of dislike or hatred towards people of a certain belief system... Relax, have fun drink Pepsi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL21376 Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 snip If you would have said all that about a DCT I would have agreed. But a CVT? Why aren't other manufacturers of performance cars rushing to adopt the CVT? BMW, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. don't have CVTs, and I doubt they will. But Subaru is going to come through and make the first CVT for enthusiasts Will manual cars get more and more hard to get? Possibly. But there will always be a few car companies that cater to the three pedal crowd. Fast is fast. And anyone can mash the go pedal to the floor. Nailing the launch and running up through the gears, barking the tires on the 1-2 and 2-3 as you nail redline shifts. Its just something that can't be equaled in a CVT, even if it is marginally faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eckseleven Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 CVTs were banned in F1 because they had an unfair advantage Audiences didn't like the sound of them either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hops Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Some cars equipped with DCTs are faster than manuals. Cool. But, there's no connection with the car. Blasting up a canyon road and being able to control your power and having that connection is what makes the driving experience. And more of a challenge. Buy my cars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obsessotron Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Some cars equipped with DCTs are faster than manuals. Cool. But, there's no connection with the car. Blasting up a canyon road and being able to control your power and having that connection is what makes the driving experience. And more of a challenge. This car is basically my dream come true. Not in love with the thought of a CVT but for a turbocharged 300HP Legacy wagon I would take the hit. Ever since I bought an SUV I have been looking for a powerful, AWD wagon (that isn't german and $75,000) and this is it. I am praying that this becomes available in North America because I miss my Legacy so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowNaza86 Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Keep praying, it'll probably never come here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Higuma Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 If you would have said all that about a DCT I would have agreed. But a CVT? Why aren't other manufacturers of performance cars rushing to adopt the CVT? BMW, Audi, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. don't have CVTs... Surely this can't be you pov - because Ferrari doesn't make one there can't be any performance value ? ? ? But Subaru is going to come through and make the first CVT for enthusiasts Actually they already have... ( perhaps you haven't been paying attention ? ) Will manual cars get more and more hard to get? Possibly. But there will always be a few car companies that cater to the three pedal crowd. Fast is fast. And anyone can mash the go pedal to the floor. Nailing the launch and running up through the gears, barking the tires on the 1-2 and 2-3 as you nail redline shifts. Now you ARE switching gears - I thought the discussion was about the value of the potential performance of a CVT - but if you want to turn it into a discussion about driver skills or the romanticized experience by someone using a manual transmission then that's a whole other thread where we can discuss the topic of High Performance Cars vs. Low Performance Drivers or the suggestion that you don't know how to really drive a performance manual transmission correctly unless you are a highly skilled heel/toe shifter... Its just something that can't be equaled in a CVT, even if it is marginally faster. Different strokes.... While you winding your way up that canyon, driving off into the sunset, shifting at the red-line through all 6 gears, loosing drive and traction every time you push in the clutch to shift... There will be some other guy in a DCT or CVT paddle shifting their way up through all 8 gears he has available and having just as much fun as you... Cheers, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CL21376 Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Surely this can't be you pov - because Ferrari doesn't make one there can't be any performance value ? ? ? No, my point of view is I don't see any other manufacturers marketing a performance oriented CVT, so I'm having a real hard time believing Subaru is going to pull it off. Actually they already have... ( perhaps you haven't been paying attention ? ) Do they? Or have they just equaled or marginally surpassed the performance of a manual but with greater fuel efficiency? I saw you got a 5.3 0-100 kph. That isn't vastly outside the norm for a turbo Subaru. Now you ARE switching gears - I thought the discussion was about the value of the potential performance of a CVT - but if you want to turn it into a discussion about driver skills or the romanticized experience by someone using a manual transmission then that's a whole other thread where we can discuss the topic of High Performance Cars vs. Low Performance Drivers or the suggestion that you don't know how to really drive a performance manual transmission correctly unless you are a highly skilled heel/toe shifter... Different strokes.... While you winding your way up that canyon, driving off into the sunset, shifting at the red-line through all 6 gears, loosing drive and traction every time you push in the clutch to shift... There will be some other guy in a DCT or CVT paddle shifting their way up through all 8 gears he has available and having just as much fun as you... Cheers, If you live your live a quarter mile at a time, I suppose I can see why .3 seconds might matter. I don't. So I'll take my romanticized experience, and continue to live it every day It's sad fewer and fewer cars are available with manuals. It is even more sad that 90%+ of the motoring public are happy about that. edit: And congrats on your new car. Enjoy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hops Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Different strokes.... While you winding your way up that canyon, driving off into the sunset, shifting at the red-line through all 6 gears, loosing drive and traction every time you push in the clutch to shift... There will be some other guy in a DCT or CVT paddle shifting their way up through all 8 gears he has available and having just as much fun as you... Cheers, For the less experienced driver, they will have fun. It's all about having experience. And being able to push that clutch in mid turn to help point the car the direction you want is all the more exciting and valuable. Go ahead and be in love with the CVT. That's fine. But more experienced manual drivers will always prefer full control of the engine and trans. Definitely 100x more fun to drive a manual in the snow and much safer (if you have the experience). This discussion got old last week. Buy my cars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hops Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 This thread is so far off topic and filled with douchebaggery. It's overdue to be closed. Buy my cars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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