Sideways the Seven Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Yeah, the Konis sound like the choice for me Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2 -Brandon 2007 Chevrolet Suburban LT3 1981 Chevrolet C10 LWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Got the HDs and pinks installed today. Took about 5 hrs. They'll need a few miles to settle but first impressions are decent. Absolutely the firmest I'd want for our roads. Still feel the manhole covers pretty well but the junkyness of the Megans is now gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 Geezus this thing is still pretty firm. Smooth as butter it is not. Maybe the Spec B struts would have been better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 9, 2013 Share Posted October 9, 2013 Too firm? Really? I never once thought my car was too firm (except before I trimmed the rear bump stops and kept hitting them). Going back to the stock suspension, then? [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 9, 2013 Author Share Posted October 9, 2013 After this investment I'm not changing anything The stock suspension was awful on the 05. I don't know what they changed with the damping and spring rates on the 2010+ Outback but they clearly noticed their mistake and improved it vastly. I know the HDs aren't "plush" by any stretch of the imagination (nor do I want plush) but for the price I was hoping for a little more isolation from the road imperfections. It's not junky and jarring like the Megans (which BTW looked like they were on death's doorstep with paint flaking off the springs). Good news is that body roll is minimal (no more than the Megans around town) and dive/squat is non-existent. The right height looks great with the spacers. I bought a torque wrench last week. Second bolt I torqued the ratchet broke. Good thing a friend just gave me a Craftsman one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 After this investment I'm not changing anything The stock suspension was awful on the 05. I don't know what they changed with the damping and spring rates on the 2010+ Outback but they clearly noticed their mistake and improved it vastly. I know the HDs aren't "plush" by any stretch of the imagination (nor do I want plush) but for the price I was hoping for a little more isolation from the road imperfections. It's not junky and jarring like the Megans (which BTW looked like they were on death's doorstep with paint flaking off the springs). Good news is that body roll is minimal (no more than the Megans around town) and dive/squat is non-existent. The right height looks great with the spacers. I bought a torque wrench last week. Second bolt I torqued the ratchet broke. Good thing a friend just gave me a Craftsman one. Pinks are fairly stiff. I wouldn't blame the dampers necessarily for the stiffness. -Mike Paisan http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/91072632.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/145749898/original.jpg http://www.pbase.com/paisan/image/133406601.jpg http://www.whiteline.com.au/images/logos/perf1.jpg 11+ Years Maintaining, Modifying and Educating TriState Subaru Enthusiasts. Now we have an Online Catalog where you can purchase Parts! AZPParts.com Like us on Facebook! | E-mail: sales@azpinstalls.com | 725 Fairfield Ave | Kenilworth, NJ 07033 | 908.248.AZP1 (2971) |AIM: AZP Installs "Race Tested, Enthusiast Approved!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 I'm not going to be able to make any changes any time soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idiot4hire Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 What's a good spring match for HD's just pinks? Are there any other options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BAC5.2 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Pinks are fairly stiff. I wouldn't blame the dampers necessarily for the stiffness. -Mike Paisan Really? I never once drove the car and thought it was too stiff, even over terrible Baltimore or Texas roads. It even passed my the pregnant wife test with flying colors! Only way it could be considered too harsh, is if I hit the bump stops. It's easy to do with the body spacers still in place. [URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/proper-flip-key-interesti-159894.html"]Flip Key Development Thread[/URL] "Genius may have its limitations, but stupidity is not thus handicapped." - E. Hubbard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZP Installs Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Really? I never once drove the car and thought it was too stiff, even over terrible Baltimore or Texas roads. It even passed my the pregnant wife test with flying colors! Only way it could be considered too harsh, is if I hit the bump stops. It's easy to do with the body spacers still in place. I had links with konis on my lgt in NNJ and NYC. On really bad craters it could be considered too stiff. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 I took a drive around town and posted some videos in this thread taken from my dash camera. Make sure you listen with sound and you'll get a pretty good idea of what it's like to be in my car. I know opinions on ride quality are very much subjective but this is much closer to feeling like the Megans did than I thought they'd be. If someone took the car for the day, removed the Megans and installed the HDs/Pinks and gave it back without telling me what changed I might think they turned down the damping knobs a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I'm going to bump this thread because I'm considering this same setup. I've got a 2009 Outback XT 5MT. It's currently on the BC BR coilovers. I don't hate them, they're sporty, and not even all that uncomfortable (I've got stock-like custom rate springs on them 4k front/6k rear). There are some issues with big bumps, but still worth it when compared to the stock OBXT suspension. That said, I'm an old man now apparently (mid 30's) and I find the BC's to be too loud. I want to go to something without pillowball topmounts. I'm pretty much sold on the Bilstein HD's. I've got Bilsteins on my Miata and they're amazing... even better than the $4000 Tein SuperRace coilovers on my WRX track car, and the tons of other suspensions I've had on various cars... including Koni's on that same Miata. But I'm not sold on the STi LGT wagon pinks. If they're "as stiff" as the Megans, that's a problem for me, because my BC's are already less stiff than Megans. What I'm hoping is that all the NVH that ssbtech is complaining about is actually his LCA kit. I tried the AVO LCA kit and took it off after a week. The handling was awesome, but the noise and harshness was terrible... like 10 times worse than the switch from stock struts to the BC's. Could that be the difference between his opinion and everyone else that's running the pinks? The other concern I've got about the pinks is how low the car will be. I am intending on staying with OEM Outback size tires... or larger. Specifically, my summer tires are 245/45/18 on 18x8+45 wheels, and my winters are 245/something/17 on '08 WRX wheels (a size wider than I should have bought, but TireRack was out of the 235's). I believe the Bilsten HD's have the Spec-B style higher perches, so I think I'm okay on tire clearance (another reason why I'm sold on the HD's). But I'm worried that the pinks might be too low to run the larger diameter tires due to fender interference. Then again, I'm running the BC's pretty damn low, to the point where it seems hard pressed to think the pinks could be lower: http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20Pictures/RadWgn%20Outback/Crosswalk/radwgn_crosswalk_side_front_low.jpg Finally, what's the deal with bumpstops on the B-HD/pinks setup? I've already got LGT rear bumpstops. BAC mentioned being "all over" the bumpstops "with the body spacers still in place". I'm not intending to convert the body spacers to LGT... all I want to do is swap out my BC's for Bilsteins/pinks with the Spec-B topmounts. I don't need to hack up the bumpstops on the HD's do I? Do I need some saggy butt spacers in the rear? If so, how thick? If the pinks are going to be too low/stiff/expensive, what are the alternatives that are good on the HD's? LGT wagon springs? USDM Spec-B springs (plus a rear spacer)? Oh, and one other alternative is just getting my BC's revalved by FEAL and converting them to stock rubber top mounts. Should cost about half as much as the Bilsteins, but I'm still left with a non-inverted non-monotube strut. Thanks in advance for any info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share Posted October 15, 2013 Your car is looking good, sperry! My setup seems to be breaking in a bit and softening up. The more I drive around town the more I realize that it's better than the Megans. Bumps that used to toss me around like an amusement park ride are much better. That being said, rougher roads still seem a little too rough for me but that's up to individual interpretation. Speed bumps and turning into driveways/parking lots across sidewalks is much nicer with the HD/Pinks than it was with the Megans. A couple of my passengers commented that the Bilsteins are smoother, at least from the passenger seat. I wouldn't bother with getting cheap coilovers revalved. If you like the idea of adjustability then Koni has a solution. They require OEM strut housings which require modification (tutorial here) but some say they're a bit more comfortable than the Bilstein HDs. According to this post The HD's are about 15-20% firmer than the USDM Spec B Bilsteins and were designed for OEM Spec B springs. Could my AVO bushings be the culprit? Hard to say but it's a possibility. I found little to no increase in NVH when I installed them, but I also had the Megans on at that time and they could have masked any further increase in NVH. A couple of my passengers commented that the Bilsteins are smoother, at least from the passenger seat. I've never been in a car with the BCs so I can't comment on what the change would be like for you. As for your ride height - I too am running Outback OEM sized tires and obviously there's clearance between them and the lower spring perch. I'm on factory wheels so I don't know how the offset of your wheels will affect fitment. I'll try to get some ride height measurements for you later today. My spacers are around 3/4" at front and 1 3/4" in the rear, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Thanks for the info ssb! Rough roads, particularly those with new uneven slurry seal, caused a *ton* of vibration and noise in my car on the AVO LCA bushings. I would bet that if your complaint is NVH (noise harshness vibration) it's the bushings. But if you just feel like the car is stiffly sprung, then I'd say the bushings aren't the issue. They don't really do anything in terms of spring rate or suspension compliance. They just transmit a lot of noise to the cabin. I've run Koni Sport dampers on my WRX and my Miata in the past. And while those applications are a bit different (specifically handling application, not comfort) I wasn't ever blown away by them. They worked good, had tons of adjustability, and were a great value. But switching to Bilstein's on my Miata was an eye opening transition. I've never driven or ridden in a car with so much grip for so little harshness. My WRX on Tein SuperRace coilovers corners at about the same speed as the Miata, but it's incredibly harsh. The Miata Bilsteins are *more* comfortable than the Koni's that came off, while still handling better. So, I'm pretty interested in going with a set of Bilstein's on my wagon... I just need to sort out the proper springs. As far as the BC's, I find them to be pretty decent. Like I said, they're pretty capable... certainly better than I expected them to be for the money. I just don't like the noise that comes with solid top mounts. Plus I feel like their fast-bump and fast-rebound damping is too stiff... it makes them feel sportier, without really making them handle better than a softer setup would. The more years I drive at race tracks, the more I appreciate a properly soft setup. So, revalving the BC's is likely a viable solution, assuming I can switch to OEM style top mounts as well. But I don't know that it's worth the money, assuming I can sell the BC's and pay about the same in difference to switch to the Bilstein's. I'm surprised to hear you've got spacers front and rear. Do you have any pictures of your car? Would it be lower than mine is in the picture above without the spacers? I don't mind low, assuming the ride is good. I don't even mind the occasional rubbing of the liners. But I certainly don't want to end up any lower than I already am. About a half to one inch higher would be more ideal, in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 I think the majority of what I feel in the car is from the springs being on the firmer side. From what I have read, the STi Pinks were designed for the HDs, but the HDs were designed to be used with OEM USDM Spec B springs. I don't know the differences between the springs. It's a perplexing setup. As I mentioned before, speed bumps and other large imperfections are quite a bit better than with the Megans. Going around bumpy bends is usually better with the HDs. It's the small, sharp, quick bumps that seem to be too fast for the springs and are transmitted right into the cabin. Sorry if I'm not using the correct terminology, that's the best way I can describe it. I'm assuming Bilstein valves the HDs for the car they're going on? They're not "one rate fits all" are they? I noticed you posted in the "lowered Outback thread" different part numbers for the rear pink springs than I got. I have the ST2038021010 and you listed ST2038021020. Front measurement from the ground: http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i357/ssbtech/Bilstein%20bits/IMG_00000379_zps01a7c6cd.jpg Rear measurement from the ground: http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i357/ssbtech/Bilstein%20bits/IMG_00000378_zps38b96579.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Thanks for the pictures. That looks a lot higher than I thought. I think I'll be fine to try the pinks without any spacers. The 1020 rear spring part number is for the spec-b wagon pink spring. The 1010 I think is for the GT wagon. The GT wagon and spec-b wagon use the same front spring. At least I think that's what I found, I'd have to double check but I'm on my phone right now. I'm not sure what would be different, if anything I would think the spec-b would be a touch stiffer. But who knows... pinks are mysterious unknown beasts from a far away land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Okay, based on the listings here: http://www.nengun.com/sti/coil-springs ST2033021010 front springs come on the JDM GT 5MT and Spec-B sedans ST2038021010 rear springs come on the JDM GT Touring Wagon ST2038021020 rear springs come on the Spec-B wagon and 3.0R wagon So going with the 1010/1010 setup is essentially the STi upgraded GT touring wagon setup, and going with the 1010/1020 setup is the Sti upgraded Spec-B touring wagon setup. The difference it likely minor (i.e. same ride-height), and probably just a little stiffer in the rear on the Spec-B, just based on the idea that the Spec-B is supposed to be the sportier of the two, AFAIK. Regarding the HD's... I think they're supposed to be upgraded struts to firm up the USDM Spec-B legacy sedan. So, yeah they're designed for the Spec-B sedan springs, but they're designed to feel stiffer, which to me means being a bit overdamped. If that's the case, the stiffer STi pink upgrade springs for the Spec-B should match better to the HD than the regular Spec-B springs do, IMO. But that's all just conjecture. Without getting these various combos compared on a shock dyno, who the hell knows. As far as your harshness issue... that sounds like the high-speed bump damping is too stiff. Essentially, the springs aren't given a chance to absorb the quick chattering bumps because the struts are too hard, thus transmitting the energy to the chassis. But I'm also apt to think that if you're noticing those types of bumps, it may still be the LCA bushing. If there are any sort of conditions that you'd notice because of the LCA bushing, it'd be the small quick bumps like rough pavement or washboards. I know it's a huge chore (and expensive if you don't have a press to do it yourself), but you might want to switch to the rubber STi bushings and see if it makes a difference. All I know is that the AVO LCA were like night and day to me, and that was with the BC's already installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 16, 2013 Author Share Posted October 16, 2013 Thanks for your input! While there may be some NVH coming in from the LCA bushings, I'm pretty sure it's the high-speed bump damping. It's not just vibration, the entire body is jostled around quite a bit. I wonder what the damping specs are on cars equipped with the GT SpecB pink springs from the factory and how that compares to the HDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Ok, I've finally got the alignment booked for Thursday. Obviously a lowered Outback isn't going to adjust to factory specs (not great anyway). Anything I should know about how the Outback suspension geometry adjusts when lower so I don't look like a complete fool talking to the alignment tech? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Do you have camber bolts up front or the camber kit for the rear? If you don't, you're basically going to want the tech to give you as much negative camber as possible front and rear while remaining even left to right, and zero toe. Chances are, without some aftermarket parts, you won't be able to get as much as you'd like. Personally, I'd run around -2.5 camber at the front, -1.5 at the rear, and 0.0 toe on a street car that gets driven at all aggressively. Caster should be at the factory spec, and not even left to right because it compensates for the crown of the road. My guess is you'll be more like -1.0 front, -0.8 rear, but that's just a guess. All I know is that even with the camber plates on my BC's and the whiteline rear camber bushing, I still went max negative all around and it was less than ideal. I just ordered up my Bilstein HDs and pinks yesterday. Going to be 2 or 3 weeks to get the springs from Japan. I also ordered the whiteline front camber bolts to go with the rear camber bushing I've already got. I found the rear bushing didn't really help nearly as much as I had hoped... there were clearance issues when trying to go all the way negative... not sure if it's due to the difference between the Outback and LGT rear upper control arm. Either way, I'm just going to try to get as much negative camber as I can out of the alignment, and I'm not expecting to get much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 No, just the stock camber bolts up front. When I had the Megans, the alignment shop had to grind out the hole for the camber bolt a little bit to get the camber within spec, I hope he doesn't have to do that again this time (wouldn't be surprised, the car is lower) Why do I want so much negative camber on a street car? This never goes to the track, just the grocery store. I should add that straight line stability on the highway is important to me. I hate having a car that wanders in the lane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 No, just the stock camber bolts up front. When I had the Megans, the alignment shop had to grind out the hole for the camber bolt a little bit to get the camber within spec, I hope he doesn't have to do that again this time (wouldn't be surprised, the car is lower) Why do I want so much negative camber on a street car? This never goes to the track, just the grocery store. I should add that straight line stability on the highway is important to me. I hate having a car that wanders in the lane. -2.5 isn't "so much". As long as the toe is zero, tire wear and stability are usually fine. For example, I run -4.5 on the front of my WRX for the track. That would be too much for the street. But -2 and change isn't a lot, IMO. I forget, do you have the AVO LCA bushings that add caster? Added caster will help with dynamic camber, making things a little better. The roll-center kit would help a little too. But in general, a lowered Subaru is going to need a bunch of static negative camber because the camber curve is so bad when the suspension compresses. When the car rolls in a corner, the top of the tire leans out from the body as the lower control arm swings up past horizontal. That's why super stiff springs and sways help with handling, even though they're actually reducing the mechanical grip of the suspension... just keeping the tire flat against the ground helps more than the fact that the tire is skipping around on overly stiff springs. As far as stability on the highway, that's more about getting the proper caster up front than anything. Extreme camber on really wide tires, or non-zero toe will make the car wander (especially if there are ruts in the road), but I've never noticed issues at around -2 degrees of camber. But again, it's unlikely that you'll be able to get even that much camber... like you said, just to get "in spec" you had to slot your Megans, which is not ideal, especially on a strut that's got camber plates up top! You will probably want to have some camber bolts... if not 2 pairs of them. At the least, that gives your alignment guy a shot at a decent alignment without having to break out a grinder, though some people will argue that dual camber bolts on a strut is a recipe for eventual failure (I've never run dual bolts, but I've always had adjustable top mounts on my lowered cars). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 I do have AVO LCA bushings, but not the ones that change the caster. The Megans did not have camber plates, they were the Outback model that re-used the stock upper mount. I'll see where this alignment gets me and then I suppose I can have bits and pieces swapped later where needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I do have AVO LCA bushings, but not the ones that change the caster. The Megans did not have camber plates, they were the Outback model that re-used the stock upper mount. I'll see where this alignment gets me and then I suppose I can have bits and pieces swapped later where needed. The only issue is that you'll have to pay again for another alignment. Putting camber bolts in the car now doesn't force you to use them... it just means you have more adjustability. If your ride height is at all similar now to the Megans, you won't have any more adjustability than you did at your last alignment. I know it's last minute, but you might want to grab a pair of bolts before your appointment and have them on-hand... or push out the alignment for a few days until you do have some. At like $25-$50 for a pair of bolts, it's worth having them if you need them. The alignment guy can install them during the alignment, there's no additional labor involved... he'll already have those bolts loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Are aftermarket camber bolts "generic" or do I need to order some Subaru specific ones? I'm assuming this is the sort of bolt that I'm looking for: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/133341-camber-bolt-faq-tutorial.html Here's the alignment with the Megans. The car is a little lower now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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