ssbtech Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Since I'm using BAC's old spacers, I'm wondering if he has something to add here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Are aftermarket camber bolts "generic" or do I need to order some Subaru specific ones? I'm assuming this is the sort of bolt that I'm looking for: http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/133341-camber-bolt-faq-tutorial.html Here's the alignment with the Megans. The car is a little lower now. You'll need a bolt specific to the Subaru strut/knuckle dimensions, but I believe pretty much anything for any Subaru will work... certainly anything for an Impreza/WRX made in the last 10 years should be fine. That post pretty well describes how they work. I ordered these Whiteline bolts from FredBeansParts: http://www.fredbeansparts.com/whiteline-subaru-wrx-and-sti-camber-bolts.html They're WRX/STi bolts according to the description, but they also show up on the LGT parts page, so that seems to confirm they're all the same across the cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 Thanks. Are the concerns about the sheer strength of the narrower dimension bolts warranted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted October 31, 2013 Share Posted October 31, 2013 Thanks. Are the concerns about the sheer strength of the narrower dimension bolts warranted? IMO, a quality bolt should hold up just fine. I would stay away from off-brand stuff though for that reason. Sure, you can buy something on eBay for $15, but who knows if the Chinese factory was mixing up decent steel that day or not. That said, the laws of physics demand that a thinner bolt shear more easily than a thicker bolt. So you may in fact break them in a situation where the stock part would have held up. However, a situation like that is likely going to be where you're sliding into a curb or something where there's going to be damage either way. Personally, I've never had an experience where a camber bolt just let go. And I've had experiences where the entire LCA came apart... camber bolts were fine. http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20Pictures/Doink%20WRX/Broken%20Stuff/LCA%20Failure/BorkyMcWheel.jpg http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20Pictures/Doink%20WRX/Broken%20Stuff/LCA%20Failure/BorkyMcLCA.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 1, 2013 Author Share Posted November 1, 2013 Ok, so here's the result of today's alignment. It's straight and true on the highway. Turn-in is a little slow and numb. Rear camber is less than the front. I've read that this can induce understeer and the fronts should be less than the rear. Toe is dead straight. I know that toe-out will speed up turn-in at the expense of straight line stability. So, where to go from here? Step one might be offset caster bushings to improve straight line tracking to compensate for a little toe-out for improved steering response. Right track or completely out of the ballpark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 No offense, but your camber numbers are terrible. Your first step is getting that corrected. Your alignment on the Megans was much better than this one. If you can get at least back to those numbers, that would be an improvement. But personally, I'd be going for even more negative camber all the way around. First you want less negative camber in the rear than the front. You currently have more negative camber in the rear. Negative camber increases grip on that end of the car. As you are now, you'll have more rear grip which mean more understeer. Second, on a lowered car that gets driven hard, you need as much negative camber up front as possible. You're at basically 0 camber in the front. That will demolish the outside shoulders of your front tires if you drive hard at all. Hell, it'll wear the outside edges just driving around town because the car is lowered. Every little bump, every little bit of body roll, is going to push those tires to positive camber and scrub the outside edge. A roll center adjustment kit (consisting of an extended ball joint and steering rod ends) would help because it corrects the static angle of the LCA, but even then you still want at least -1.0 degree of camber up front... like I said earlier I would go for more like -2.0 to -2.5 on my own car. Third, rear camber is okay as it is, but only if you can get the front to -1.2 or so. But in general, you need camber to be equal left to right. Neither end matches left to right, which frankly is the sign of either an inexperienced or lazy alignment tech... and/or a junky alignment rig. In all my years of doing alignments with just rulers and string and having them done on a rack by a pro, I've always been able to get camber and toe to match left to right. It takes a little more time, but considering how much alignments cost that should be included. You might argue that the camber numbers are where they are because everything is maxed out negative, but the before numbers show that's not the case. It looks like the tech just aligned the car based on the specs, which is wrong for a lowered car, especially since the factory specs aren't even great for anyone that drives hard. In fact, it doesn't even look like the guy bothered to adjust the rear camber... all he did was correct the toe, and left the camber as-is. At the very least, like I said earlier, he should have adjusted one to match the other. IMO, that's grounds for a refund... you shouldn't have to pay for a 4 wheel alignment if he's not going to fix the rear camber. Finally, I wouldn't run the toe-out on the rear. 0.05 toe out is something I might do on an autocross car since it helps the car to rotate a little. But proper camber works better, and wears tires less on the highway. Here's the instructions I'd give the tech: - Throw out the factory specs, they suck, especially on a lowered car. - Max out the front caster (not that it's adjustable without adjustable top-mounts) - Max out the front negative camber, making sure they're equal left to right. - Set the rear to 1 degree less negative camber than the front, or as close to as possible, making sure they're equal left to right. - 0.0 toe all around. If your alignment shop refuses to align and warranty a car outside the factory specs, find a new alignment shop. The instructions above are totally reasonable and won't negatively affect tire wear. In fact, they'll help with tire wear on a lowered car, and any decent alignment guy should recognize that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 1, 2013 Author Share Posted November 1, 2013 No offense taken, it's guys like you who take the time to explain things which helps me to understand what's going on under the car. Trying to find a mechanic/alignment tech who will explain things as he works on the car seems impossible around here. They all want to take it, set it to spec and hand it back. I don't know how close to horizontal the LCA is. I'm assuming by the way you're advocating for negative camber, any compression is causing the camber to swing positive. With extended ball joints, how much compression is required for the LCA to again swing up past horizontal and send the camber positive? I'm assuming they don't push the LCA down too far. So it sounds like I need to go on a shopping spree: Positive caster LCA bushings Front lower adjustable camber bolts (still on the fence about the safety of these...) Possibly a RCK at some point (doesn't sound critical if the other bits get the alignment to a satisfactory spec) I don't think the alignment shop was refusing to set it up out of spec, but rather we were both unclear with each other regarding the fact that a lowered car needs custom specs. I'm sure the tech knows this, but his orders are probably to just tune it to spec. Regarding the rear camber, it's not adjustable on these cars without extra parts, that's why he was unable to adjust it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 I know on my WRX, when it was lowered, the LCA was horizontal at static ride height. I never looked closely at the Outback because I never planned to do anything about it anyway. I just maxed out my negative camber and called it done. I wish I remember where it ended up... I think around -1.8, but I could be thinking of a different car on a different day. The roll-center kit drops the outboard end of the LCA about an inch, give or take depending on the manufacturer of the kit. The whiteline kits I've used are on the side of less drop, but should be more robust. Other kits have had failures, like the 6-gun kit. The real issue tends to be with the steering linkage failing apparently. You have to drop the rod-ends the same amount as the ball joints or else you get a bunch of bump-steer. And the big-drop rod-ends are weaker than the factory ones, so you can snap them when hitting a big curb or something on-track. For a street car, the RCK is not that necessary if you can get decent static camber. Positive caster LCA bushings are great for better dynamic camber. That definitely helps cancel the issue when the LCA is close to horizontal. However, and why I'm not running them (aside from the NVH), the bushing pushes the wheel forward in the wheel well where it's already close to rubbing. So if you're running Outback size tires you might rub the front bumper when turning. Just something to keep in mind. Running the camber bolts in the lower slot should be plenty fine. I've run them on my WRX track car, and really beat the snot out of the suspension without seeing a failure of an aftermarket camber bolt. I didn't realize the rear camber of the outback wasn't adjustable. I've had a set of adjustable rear bushings since the 1st time I aligned it... I just assumed the whiteline bushings extended the adjustability range, rather than adding adjustability where there was none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 1, 2013 Author Share Posted November 1, 2013 Any reason slotting the strut clevis hole would not be preferable to using the Whiteline toothpicks? My Megans were slotted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 Any reason slotting the strut clevis hole would not be preferable to using the Whiteline toothpicks? My Megans were slotted. Slotting can slip way way more easily than a properly tensioned cam bolt can accidentally rotate, or even more easily than a cam bolt can fail. Usually to prevent slots from slipping you end up needing to drastically over torque the bolts. Slotting is basically a last resort, IMO. The only right way to slot is to have offset inserts that prevent any slipping. That's how the slots in my Tein SuperRace coilovers work. So I can adjust at the bolt hole, but only in 3 positions based on the shims. Then the stock camber bolt and top mount allow fine tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 I've been reading several threads on the use of the bolts (here, and here) for starters. Consensus is that they're generally safe for use, but I was intrigued by a comment that the knuckle is held in place in the clevis of the strut not by the shear force the knuckle places on the bolt, but rather the clamping force of the clevis on the knuckle exerted by the bolts being torqued to 112.1ft-lbs. In this post, the author mentions that the bolts should never experience shear. The force holding the knuckle in place is the friction between the clevis and knuckle, the forces involved aren't being placed directly on the bolts. I see that the torque spec on the Whiteline bolts is roughly half that of the OEM bolts and therefore it would stand to reason that the knuckle is more prone to slipping between the ears. So if the knuckle is held in place by friction, would it not make more sense to use the bolts that can be torqued to a higher spec in a slotted hole? The tension alone of the clevis on the knuckle should be enough to stop anything from slipping. I just checked my old alignment sheets. With the slotted upper hole on the Megans, the alignment remained at -0.7 for the last 40,000 miles without shifting. I'm possibly over-thinking this, but then again some engineer came up with 112.1 ft-lbs instead of 112.0 for a reason Obviously the small things matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 That's right in theory. It's also like that for wheels/rotors clamping to the hub face. The lugs aren't supposed to hold the wheel on via shear, or they'd click-clack every time you accelerated then braked. But my anecdotal experience from years at the racetrack is that slotted uprights will eventually slip, while non-slotted uprights get the added benefit of a bolt filling the hole when you really hit something hard. I've had it happen, and a friend of mine as well. So for that reason, I'd prefer the camber bolt over the slot... so that when the clamping force is exceeded, the bolt means you get to finish your lap without suddenly having a wheel tipped out and the toe at -2 degrees on one side. The downside is that if the hit is really hard, you shear the bolt in two and perhaps crash the car. But a hit that hard is likely because you're already crashing the car in the first place. Unless we're talking about rally, you just shouldn't be hitting things that hard. Ideally, you want the best of both worlds, which is what you get on the high-end stuff: http://www.indigo-gt.com/catalog/images/tein/teinsuperR.jpg Take a look at the clevis on the Tein SuperRace coilovers. There are eccentric washers in the upper hole. By flipping the washers, you can effectively move the hole location and still use a large bolt that can be torqued to a higher spec without a slot. Oh, and the (in)significant digits in the torque specs tend to come from unit conversions. 112.1 ft-lbs is probably converted from 15.5 kg-m. (Just like 5x114.3 mm wheel PCD is actually 5x4.5".) The torque spec precision isn't that critical... besides, I doubt anyone but NASA and F1 engine builders have torque wrenches truly accurate to 0.1 ft-lbs to meet the spec anyway. Anyway, ultimately it's you and your family that are inside that car. In this particular deal, it comes down to whatever you're more comfortable with, since there are pros and cons to both methods. The simple fact that you're bothering to try to sort this out means you're probably going to make a better decision than some yahoo that's throwing parts at the car without understanding the possible repercussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urfsin Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 ssbtech - I have been using camber bolts for about 5 years now on my OBXT w/ Megans. I have done auto x, road course, and rally cross's with them. I have NEVER had one break. The only time I ever had a problem was when one slipped at an auto cross. This was after I had an alignment and I suspect the alignment tech did not torque the bolt down enough. Slide It Sideways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 Are you using the Whiteline bolts with the tabbed washer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 On another note, I'm becoming happier with this setup. Still bumpier than I'd like around town but I'm finding myself generally enjoying this more and more. It's great on the highway. I was worried about it being too floaty but it's just as flat and stable as with the Megans with less twitchiness to it. Quick lane changes are quite a bit more comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urfsin Posted November 3, 2013 Share Posted November 3, 2013 Are you using the Whiteline bolts with the tabbed washer? Not using the Whiteline brand, but mine do have the tabbed washer. I am able to get to about -1.5 camber up front. Enough for me on a DD car. Slide It Sideways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Oh look, a box from Japan on my doorstep! http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20Pictures/RadWgn%20Outback/Spec-B%20Suspension/IMG_0082.JPG http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20Pictures/RadWgn%20Outback/Spec-B%20Suspension/IMG_0083.JPG Now, if only FredBeans could get their supply of Bilstein kits sped up! I can't believe I got springs from Japan faster than struts from the East Coast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Just be glad you don't live in Canada where it takes a month to receive a bolt ... and three more weeks for a second front-left when you break the first one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Just be glad you don't live in Canada where it takes a month to receive a bolt ... and three more weeks for a second front-left when you break the first one Speaking of that, I saw your posts in the other thread but I can't remember the outcome. Did you ever get a set of proper shortened bumpstops, or did you cut the stock ones? I emailed RaceComp about proper bumpstops and never got a reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 I cut the front internal bump stops down by 1/2 and replaced the rear bump stops with Legacy stops. When opening up the front struts, I would recommend using something that's not tapered like a standard slotted screwdriver bit. I think that's partly why I chewed up one of the struts. That and it was way over torqued. The replacement strut came apart just as easily as the right hand strut did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I cut the front internal bump stops down by 1/2 and replaced the rear bump stops with Legacy stops. When opening up the front struts, I would recommend using something that's not tapered like a standard slotted screwdriver bit. I think that's partly why I chewed up one of the struts. That and it was way over torqued. The replacement strut came apart just as easily as the right hand strut did. I've already got sedan rear bumpstops on the car... it was undrivably bouncy on the coilovers with the wagon rear bumpstops because the car was literally sitting on them 100% of the time. I'm a little nervous about just cutting down the existing front stops. I'd hate to clobber the front struts on the first huge bump I hit... I wonder if I can use some bumpstops from FCM... they make incredible custom bumpstops for Miata Bilsteins, maybe one of those would be applicable? I'd much rather deal with the stops on brand new struts that are off the car than later when things are dirty from driving around this winter (not to mention downtime with the car on jack-stands in the garage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 You're probably better off getting the right bumpstops than cutting them. I don't think anyone here has had any issues with cutting them with the Pink springs. Shorter springs perhaps might be an issue. But I'm not the expert on suspension movement, so I don't know how far it all compresses on big bumps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperry Posted November 13, 2013 Share Posted November 13, 2013 http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20Pictures/RadWgn%20Outback/Spec-B%20Suspension/IMG_0122.JPG http://www.seccs.org/gallery/Car%20Pictures/RadWgn%20Outback/Spec-B%20Suspension/IMG_0124.JPG Just waiting on those bumpstop packers so I can cut down the front bumpstops a little. Scheduled for an install and alignment next Friday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 13, 2013 Author Share Posted November 13, 2013 Just waiting on those bumpstop packers so I can cut down the front bumpstops a little. Scheduled for an install and alignment next Friday! You're like me - put it all together to see how pretty it looks before taking it apart again to do the bumpstops. Actually I managed to forget a dust boot. Out came the spring compressor again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssbtech Posted November 13, 2013 Author Share Posted November 13, 2013 Oh, and make sure the installer follows these instructions, apparently the ones included with the Whiteline camber bolts are incorrect: http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6365 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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