xt2005bonbon Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Let's get this straight. Is it really that bad to install such filter without a tune? I went over NASIOC to see what they had to say. It's kina 50/50. Some say it's a no no while others have been using them for thousands of miles without issues. Edit: Added a poll. Thought it might help others down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMER DOWN Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I ran K&N 20k on stock tune & 140k with Cobb stage 1, 93 map with no issues. All you can do is log you car before & after the K&N. To see if it leans out you A\F to much. Mike Mileage:331487 Retired/Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbrjason Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 It's fine on a stock tune. The stock WOT OL fueling is plenty rich enough to support it. The problem comes when you're running agressive af ratios with an untuned maf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 I've actually been using the K&N panel for 20k miles with my stock tune and never noticed anything wrong. But I've not done any logging yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMER DOWN Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Cobb stage 1, 93 map is rich too. When I got it dyno. A|F's was hang 9.5:1 to 10:1at WOT. Mike Mileage:331487 Retired/Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPU1 Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I've been running a K&N on an otherwise stock engine for...Uhmmm... 3 years and about 40,000 miles. No Problems here, Just finally cleaned it, runs fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apexjapan Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I think the issue with it being 50/50 is due to a combination of factors. The stock ecu setup compensates for a good percentage of out of "stock" parameters. Say about 8-12% difference in air flow plus/minus from ideal baseline. But a number of factors pulls you away from that ideal baseline even before you put the filter on. The first one - local gas quality. Somebody that lives in an area with crap gas (91 octane at the highest, etc) is already dealing with that issue on their turbo models, and may already be running a good few percentages off baseline for that reason alone. Second - condition of the rest of the engine. Dodgy injector, bad sparkplug, minor vacuum leaks. Lot of stuff that only moves values a few percents, so no CEL, ECU just adjusts to compensate. Third - some part of the engine that was on the edge of failure, and it fails sometime soon after the filter was installed. So the first thing that everybody thinks, and blames, is the filter - since it was just installed, right? You'd be surprised how often this happens, I think what happens is that performance has dropped off a bit (due to the part getting ready to fail), and since the car starts feeling a bit slower, people get a high flow filter to get some more performance. Regards, Paul Hansen http://www.avoturboworld.com http://www.facebook.com/avoturboworld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCHM1AN Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Stay tuned ladies and gentlemen: I'm running an OCI of over 6,000mi with a K&N filter and I did not use any of the oil before installing, and have not since. Call me stupid, but I really want to see what the silicon count on my UOA looks like. Also, since I installed my K&N I've been getting 20.6mpg. The previous year, during the same time frame I got 19.3mpg and used WIX filters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted May 16, 2012 Author Share Posted May 16, 2012 Stay tuned ladies and gentlemen: I'm running an OCI of over 6,000mi with a K&N filter and I did not use any of the oil before installing, and have not since. Call me stupid, but I really want to see what the silicon count on my UOA looks like. Also, since I installed my K&N I've been getting 20.6mpg. The previous year, during the same time frame I got 19.3mpg and used WIX filters. ^I've actually never oiled mine since I installed it (20k ago). I did take it out a few times to inspect it and 'shake' some of the dust if any but that is all. I do not currently live in dusty places btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Capacity Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 I wash my Perrin panel filter once a year with the K&N kit. In fact this thread reminded me that I need to oil it, because I washed it over the weekend. I installed the panel filter back at about 4000 miles in Aug 2004. The car went on Cobb stage 1, Dec 8 2004. 305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD). CHECK your oil, these cars use it. Engine Build - Click Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMER DOWN Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 Stay tuned ladies and gentlemen: I'm running an OCI of over 6,000mi with a K&N filter and I did not use any of the oil before installing, and have not since. Call me stupid, but I really want to see what the silicon count on my UOA looks like. Also, since I installed my K&N I've been getting 20.6mpg. The previous year, during the same time frame I got 19.3mpg and used WIX filters. Here's OA's on my G\F's 05 WRX & my LGT. back in 08. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/avg-12k-oa-results-82383.html Mike Mileage:331487 Retired/Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rome_STI Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 I've been running a dump pipe and apexi pod filter for almost a year, a boost controller for around 9 months, and catback exhaust (so am now full turbo back) for 2 months and this is all on the stock tune. Touch wood have had no issues yet, but will be getting a tune once my turbo, fmic and associated mods go on in July/August I would say all together I have done around 20,000 kms which is around 12,500 miles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCHM1AN Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 Here's OA's on my G\F's 05 WRX & my LGT. back in 08. http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/avg-12k-oa-results-82383.html Mike Did you have a K&N filter in any of the cars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMER DOWN Posted May 17, 2012 Share Posted May 17, 2012 ^^^Yes, both have K&N panel air filters. Mike Mileage:331487 Retired/Sold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xt2005bonbon Posted May 19, 2012 Author Share Posted May 19, 2012 bmx, care to elaborate why you think one needs a stock tune with a K&N panel filter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BarManBean Posted May 19, 2012 Moderators Share Posted May 19, 2012 FWIW, I had an aFe pro dry S installed (performance panel filter) and my baseline stock logs for my tune (stage 2) showed knock under load. Minor, but it was there. Was it due to the filter or just a crap stock tune? Dunno...Either way I'm tuned for it now, so it's staying for sure. "Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>> Not currently in stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rome_STI Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Excuse my noobness but is knock really all that bad?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCHM1AN Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Yes. You're creating microscopic stress fractures in the heads and pistons, which, over time will cause them to fail requiring a complete engine rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_ster Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 its a stupid airfilter ! its not going to change anything !!! pretty sure it flows less than stock anyways. just don't do anything funky with the airbox. Now that's thinking out of the boxer! fyi all 05 + legacy's have built in code reader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_ster Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 FWIW, I had an aFe pro dry S installed (performance panel filter) and my baseline stock logs for my tune (stage 2) showed knock under load. Minor, but it was there. Was it due to the filter or just a crap stock tune? Dunno...Either way I'm tuned for it now, so it's staying for sure. the iam adjusts to be on the verge of knock all the time that just how the stock tune is. its a closed loop setup where it will advance untill knock then retard a bit. the stock cars i worked on the iam stock never went to 1.00 it was always .8-.9. people say that knock at lowerengine loads and rpm's are not so bad, but i don't like anyof it ! Now that's thinking out of the boxer! fyi all 05 + legacy's have built in code reader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rome_STI Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Wow so maybe I've been slowing destroying my engine for the past year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fahr_side Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 I really don't like these washable panel filters. Any filter that passes more air than stock is doing so because it filters less efficiently. The stock paper filter can support far more power than you can make on the stock turbo, so all you are doing is allowing more dirt to get on the MAF sensor, coat the throttle body and injectors, and get onto the cylinder walls. There is no performance gain to be had and as a money-saving effort it ranks up there with only changing your oil filter every second service. IOW, fail. Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCHM1AN Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 I have a feeling I'm going to be using paper filters from now on, but after I get my UOA results I'm going to make up my mind about paper vs reusable panel filters. I've read so many opinions, but we'll see what the facts say and then I'll go from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Users seabass07 Posted May 21, 2012 Mega Users Share Posted May 21, 2012 the iam adjusts to be on the verge of knock all the time that just how the stock tune is. its a closed loop setup where it will advance untill knock then retard a bit. the stock cars i worked on the iam stock never went to 1.00 it was always .8-.9. people say that knock at lowerengine loads and rpm's are not so bad, but i don't like anyof it ! I never saw this with my stock tune. It was ALWAYS at 1.0! I also very rarely saw knock above 1.0 load. I would see occasional knock on a learning view, but never an IAM lower than 1.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mega Users seabass07 Posted May 21, 2012 Mega Users Share Posted May 21, 2012 There's a pretty obvious trend in this thread. A bunch of people using the "I've been doing it for x amount of time, so it must be fine" argument. So far, what I've found on this issue is that anyone who actually takes the time to log finds out that these panel filters are causing knock at high load/rpm that wasn't there with the stock filter. That was exactly the result I found with an afe dry filter. I was skeptical about people claiming that they were bad, so I went ahead and bought one with the intent of proving them wrong. Turned out they were right. I'll post the same thing I've posted on this issue on other forums. If you are going to ignore the advice of those who know what they are talking about and have actually logged changes from the filters, then do some god damned logging before you just assume everything's fine. IMO, anything that induces high rpm/load knock is not going on my engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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