Would you still buy a Subaru if you didn't need AWD?

[SBT]

If only there was a market for a 335i wagon. The Europeans do wagons right though: Audi S4 avants, M5 wagons, E63 wagons...

 

And this I agree with, and one of the reasons that I keep pressing SOA to get their wagon shiznit on. America is evolving and starting to turn that corner, but they don't want dumbed-down lumps and lugs for wagons. And by and large, they can't afford "Euro-luxo" prices. American owners want "Sport" and "Touring" performance wagons, at a decent price point, as they move from their gas-guzzling SUVs to similar-but-different "utility" rides. Bring something like a Legacy S402 wagon (Not sure what they'll call the HP 5th gen LGTW, possibly S502??) or even the LGT Ts Wagon, and the market will buy it.

 

Perfect, balanced AWD and stellar performance out of the box. The economy killed the 4th gen Leggy Wagon, just when it was starting to get a glimpse of the market potential. And it (the economy) may still be the Achilles heel that keeps it from hitting full-stride.

 

But if there's one thing this past winter did do, it drove many to rethink AWD as a viable alternative over their less-tractive FWD and RWD rides (small, medium and large). From the snow-blasted and ice-ensconced regions of the Great White North, to the rain-drenched and wind-buffeted regions of the East and West Coasts, the South and Southwest, each of these regions suffer daily at the hands of Mother Nature (and not just in Winter), all of which plays to Subaru's strong suite.

 

Now that Subaru's vehicle size is up, and mpg ratings are up thanks to the Lineatronic CVT and the new FB25 DOHC NA engine with it's improved power delivery and increased EPA rating going into all of the new models, Subaru vehicles are poised to capture more market share. That arguably one of the best-balanced, AWD systems on the planet is also fully-integrated into the mix, and not just added-to it, is pure engineering genius.

 

But the question really isn't would you buy a Subaru "if" you didn't need AWD, the question really should be why wouldn't you buy a Subaru? (period). AWD is the equalizer, the enabler, the utility in utility-vehicle, and one of the main reasons you see other manufacturers rushing to bring more AWD vehicles to market.

 

And yes, I'm a lost-cause when it comes to wagons. Love them and can't see myself driving anything else as my daily driver. Just wish that Subaru would reconsider bringing them back to the daily market in other than "lifted" Outback form *sigh*...

[Shotokan1509]

Well, the question is more.. do I have snow to deal with.

 

I get a decent amount of snow and love skiing, no the awd does not help me stop but it does help the hill climbs, or digging itself out of deep parking holes.

 

Other options if I wasn't a snow fan:

A.) Drive my Mustang year round

B.) Higher hp, rwd sedan like CTS-V, Jag XJR, M5 (all used)

 

It is awd, but the new Taurus SHO looks vewwwwwwwwwwy interesting.

 

 

The LGT was sort of a compromise on everything.. I wanted another truck for gear hauling & ground clearance but sick of the gas mileage, wanted a quick car but needed the ski capability, so I got decent mileage (barely) & performance with the awd clawing ability.

[ShrinerMonkey]

The cargo volume with the seats up is smaller in the 328i than the Legacy but with the seats down they are about the same.

 

I wouldn't exactly call the 328i wagon slow. 0-60 in 7 seconds is MUCH faster than my current 11 sec (if I'm lucky). Also, the one I am considering has the sport package and would destroy a LGT on a road course. Plus, I'm an old fart, not a boy racer in gold chains like many on here. I just want something practical, but fun to drive with reasonable acceleration. The 328i wagon fits the bill perfectly. I have considered getting a used LGT wagon but they are all high mileage and I just can't bring myselft to get pretty much the same car again. Variety is the spice of life.

[ShrinerMonkey]

And yes, I'm a lost-cause when it comes to wagons. Love them and can't see myself driving anything else as my daily driver. Just wish that Subaru would reconsider bringing them back to the daily market in other than "lifted" Outback form *sigh*...

+1,000,000

The wife and I just can't see ourselves driving anything but wagons. Sedans are the most pointless vehicles I can think of and most CUV/SUVs are just abominations.

[sumfoo1]

three M3s and one M5 never left me on the side of the road. this 3-series garbage (335I) has.

Last one was done in August 2010, which I was told is the latest revision that supposedly fixed the problem. Then again, BMW said that few times before. At one point, I kept track of HPFP part numbers, but since the car is under CPO warranty, I really don't care anymore. It will get fixed as warranty is in effect and HPFPs are warranted for 10years/120k. It just sucks that car left me stranded. I usually have personal policy that I sell the car if it leaves me stranded.http://www.thewolfweb.com/images/posticonnew.gif

This is a buddy of mine who's had a couple e46 m3s an e36m3 and an e39 m5.

 

This is where my opinion of the 335i being less than desirable comes from. I know its only supposed to be on the twin turbos. And i haven't heard anything about the n55 (single turbo twin scroll) but then if you google the n55 pump is failing just as often... they just don't have a recall on it. This goes for the turbo mini too (no recall tons of failures) just because there is no recall doesn't mean its fixed either.

[Tomkat1127]

I manage a body shop, and I've driven nearly every make and model around. I just recently rented a Sonata for a few days. Let me tell u. These are great cars. My fiance has a new camry & I would take the donate over the camry. I'd take the sonata over the new legacy as well. Just read all the praise bestowed upon it by all of the automobile publications. Not just the sonata, but all of Hyundai's products. Have you driven one? Muh better interior quality than what's being put out there by Subaru. Never mind exterior styling. I love the styling on. my 05 LGT, buy Subaru missed the his on the current cars interior and even moreso the exterior styling.Yuk.

 

I agree on the styling aspect. My case is based on older (say 2000-2006) Hyundai models and their reputation for quality. This was not here-say as my mother-in law, my wifes grandma, and a few others I know have had one model or another. I have not drove a late model (2010+) but I would want to see some good data from a reputable source like Edmunds or JD Power and some owner reviews on durability, reliability, cost of ownership.

Subaru is not huge in my area, even though they are built in Indiana. The STI and GT models are really hard to find quickly (explains why I drove 5 hours to get my GT). For the most part everyone drives Ford, GM, Dodge, Toyota, or Hyundai. That might be because 1000's work at the Toyota plant (Camry, Avalon, Solara) in Georgetown,KY and a Toyota NA corporate office is in Erlanger, KY.

Subaru is different to me and I like that. Subaru has a good reputation around here, Hyundai and Kia not so much (anybody ever own a Daewoo?).

 

Well, the question is more.. do I have snow to deal with.

 

I get a decent amount of snow and love skiing, no the awd does not help me stop but it does help the hill climbs, or digging itself out of deep parking holes.

 

Other options if I wasn't a snow fan:

A.) Drive my Mustang year round

B.) Higher hp, rwd sedan like CTS-V, Jag XJR, M5 (all used)

 

It is awd, but the new Taurus SHO looks vewwwwwwwwwwy interesting.

 

The LGT was sort of a compromise on everything.. I wanted another truck for gear hauling & ground clearance but sick of the gas mileage, wanted a quick car but needed the ski capability, so I got decent mileage (barely) & performance with the awd clawing ability.

 

I feel about the same minus the skiing. If I could easily get 22+ MPG from a new diesel truck and it still perform reliable and not lag, I wouldn't consider anything else.

 

Yeah, twin turbo 300+ Tarus SHO caught my eye too. Just couldn't find one in my range. Almost bought the little brother Ford Fusion Sport AWD. Nice car, it was loaded with rear camera, blind spot detection, Sync system, 265 HP V6. Cadillac CTS (or STS?) AWD, seems like an old mans sport sedan to me.

 

Funny story, Out last night in yard with kids and wife. UPS man stops claiming the worng address and remarks "Sure is some nice cars in your driveway" (speaking of the FJ and LGT), Is that a Turbo Subaru AWD?.

[thefultonhow]

I agree on the styling aspect. My case is based on older (say 2000-2006) Hyundai models and their reputation for quality. This was not here-say as my mother-in law, my wifes grandma, and a few others I know have had one model or another. I have not drove a late model (2010+) but I would want to see some good data from a reputable source like Edmunds or JD Power and some owner reviews on durability, reliability, cost of ownership.

 

. . .

 

Subaru has a good reputation around here, Hyundai and Kia not so much (anybody ever own a Daewoo?).

 

Daewoo quality is an irrelevant comparison. There's a good reason they almost went out of business. They haven't gotten any better under GM, either -- the Chevy Aveo has abysmal reliability, according to Consumer Reports.

 

As for Hyundai, Consumer Reports tells the story:

 

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/thefultonhow/Subaru/hyundaireliability.gif

 

Reliability has improved.

[Tomkat1127]

Wow, someone went to the trouble to find me a report on Hyundai, thanks. I don't subscribe to CR.

So, they are improving but like I thought there was some major issues in early 2000's with major systems in the car. Sorry, it will have to be one special Hyundai for me to own it. Good luck to all who jump over.

[thefultonhow]

If reliability has improved, I don't see what the big deal is. And the Sonata is better than the Accord by some accounts.

[Shotokan1509]

 

I feel about the same minus the skiing. If I could easily get 22+ MPG from a new diesel truck and it still perform reliable and not lag, I wouldn't consider anything else.

 

Only problem there is a newer diesel truck is way more expensive than a similar interior/mileage/condition LGT

[Tomkat1127]

If reliability has improved, I don't see what the big deal is. And the Sonata is better than the Accord by some accounts.

 

No big deal. Thanks for the reports. Just not a fan. Maybe I will drive one someday and change my mind.

 

Only problem there is a newer diesel truck is way more expensive than a similar interior/mileage/condition LGT

 

Yeah, tell me about it. For the year of Cummins I would want (04.5 to early 07 5,9), it would have some mileage. You can still find 06's with less than 75K, some say that is not even broke in if treated right and the major rebuild point is 300K (Ford & GM is much less). Oh, Oh I know what it is a I really wanted...a Fummins. For those that don't know thats a Ford chassis and body with a Cummins engine swap which is 7-15 grand and if you have deeper pockets add 4 more for an Allison tranny. Kinda the best parts of all trucks. You know what...don't get me started on trucks. Kind of a sore point...guess we all got to be practical at some or at least to the extent our bank accounts let us.

[vr4Legacy]

^ investing $7-15k into a truck that will be more "reliable" kinda beats point of having a reliable vehicle from an economical standpoint. I can understand NASA making things so they are triple fail safe (you can't really be stranded up in space) but c'mon let's be reasonable here.

 

I'd be happy to buy an LGT, OB 3.6R (or maybe 4.0L Wrangler) AND Prius for the cost your talking about dumping into a truck, then I could meet whatever whim I need. Mileage, fun or utility, and I can haul anything I would ever need with a hitch & trailer on my OB. (anything more than 3,000 lbs will just be delivered)

[DirtyDan]

All the rest of the world has turbo diesels available in about every chassis. Only in the U.S. are those engines not offered. I would jump on an AWD turbo diesel vehicle. Only recently have the BMW and Audi turbo diesels come here. I know Subaru and every import offers TD's oversea's. Even in small pickups.

Speaking of which, notice there aren't any mini-trucks anymore? Only in the U.S.

[biturbowagon]

Herewith are a few random thoughts, based on various recent messages.

 

 

• If BMW or Audi had imported one of their AWD turbodiesel wagons (3 series or A4, respectively) when I was shopping for cars once or twice ago, I'd probably own it today.
  
• To give credit where it is due, Hyundais have improved enormously over the years. A friend of mine had a late '80s vintage one. It was an absolute piece of junk. Another friend owns one from just a few years ago. It's probably as good as a Japanese car from a decade ago -- that is to say, not state of the art but solid and decent.
  
• Subarus are, in general, very good vehicles. Alas, they don't currently offer in the U.S. quite what I would want in a vehicle if I had to replace mine tomorrow. Then again, I'm not sure that any company currently does, at least in my price range.
  

[Tomkat1127]

^ investing $7-15k into a truck that will be more "reliable" kinda beats point of having a reliable vehicle from an economical standpoint. I can understand NASA making things so they are triple fail safe (you can't really be stranded up in space) but c'mon let's be reasonable here.

 

I'd be happy to buy an LGT, OB 3.6R (or maybe 4.0L Wrangler) AND Prius for the cost your talking about dumping into a truck, then I could meet whatever whim I need. Mileage, fun or utility, and I can haul anything I would ever need with a hitch & trailer on my OB. (anything more than 3,000 lbs will just be delivered)

 

Surely, you didn't think I would consider buyin a well running Powerstroke or V10 for 20K+ and go swapping out the motor first thing. In that case I see your point. Buying a $6-7K truck chassis with a blown or weak motor and putting $7-15K into is not highly economical but makes more sense to me. It's just hard for me to finance a project out of pocket like that. I am sure you can somewhat throw "reliable" out the window until bugs are worked out. At that point it is a custom built vehicle, one that you keep forever because only you truly know all about it and it would be hard to sale. You can do it and get it done legally and have it titled and registered and even carry riders to your insurance polices to protect what you've done.

Sorry, but out in the sticks where I live, a truck (typically with 4WD) is needed and you do haul more than 3000LB (sometimes in the bed of the truck). I have my 97 F150 to get me by on most of those chores, except lugging my tractor somewhere, which as only ever been needed once or twice. The Ford would do it but she's a little old and weaker and the weight might push her over the edge quick. The Subaru is my DD to work and weekend trips if we don't take the wifes FJ which can also haul, tow, off-road as good or better then any Subaru.

[define]

I didn't *need* AWD to begin with, assuming the argument is that AWD is only great for snow/ice. San Diego doesn't get much of anything other than sun, and I don't think AWD makes any difference there. My wagon opens the door to going out to trailheads that others find too "out of the way" or in other words, their Honda Civic can't get to. We also have plently of sand, snow and dirt within 2 hours which I travel to quite a bit, and the AWD gets plenty of use.

[biturbowagon]

I didn't *need* AWD to begin with, assuming the argument is that AWD is only great for snow/ice. San Diego doesn't get much of anything other than sun, and I don't think AWD makes any difference there. My wagon opens the door to going out to trailheads that others find too "out of the way" or in other words, their Honda Civic can't get to. We also have plently of sand, snow and dirt within 2 hours which I travel to quite a bit, and the AWD gets plenty of use.

 

I've often said to people:

 

 

• The vast majority of people who own SUVs, don't need them;
  

 

• The Outback (and the Forester) is the perfect SUV for people who don't need SUVs.
  

 

That said, the mere fact that you take your vehicle to trailheads means that you actually do use your car at least a bit like an SUV.

[Brian55]

Herewith are a few random thoughts, based on various recent messages.

 

 

• If BMW or Audi had imported one of their AWD turbodiesel wagons (3 series or A4, respectively) when I was shopping for cars once or twice ago, I'd probably own it today.
  
• To give credit where it is due, Hyundais have improved enormously over the years. A friend of mine had a late '80s vintage one. It was an absolute piece of junk. Another friend owns one from just a few years ago. It's probably as good as a Japanese car from a decade ago -- that is to say, not state of the art but solid and decent.
  
• Subarus are, in general, very good vehicles. Alas, they don't currently offer in the U.S. quite what I would want in a vehicle if I had to replace mine tomorrow. Then again, I'm not sure that any company currently does, at least in my price range.
  

 

I can't bring myself to buy a BMW or M.B. because they scream "hey everyone, look at me, I make a lot of money" but not quite enough to swing a real car, like an AMG or an M-series, which is the only BMW I could ever justify owning if I had the coin, because it is "The ultimate driving machine". Anything less can be beat in value and performance by other brands.

 

Agreed on Hyundai's coming a long way. I would now recommend them to anyone looking for a decent daily driver, grocery getter, etc. The early models were terrible, many of them used Mitsubishi engines which weren't very good during that era. They used more oil than gas. Remember the trail of blue smoke behind all the Dodge Caravans from back then? Mitsubishi motors were to blame for that as well...

 

I agree 100% on your third point. If Subaru would import their turbodiesel here, I'd get one for the wife immediately. I have a need for speed that can't be met with a diesel. I think they should bring back the 4th gen. Legacy, especially the wagon, with some updated styling cues taken from Audi and the bugs worked out. Other than that, it's a jack of all trades vehicle. It's quick, has decent handling, both of which can be easily made better. I got rid of my full size pickup one year after I bought my LGT because it just sat there. I can pack this car with whatever material I'm working with that day and not worry about f*@#-ing it up because it's not a fancy luxury car that I paid too much for. I'm able to tow a small trailer for anything that doesn't fit inside, and I regularly tow three motocross bikes, three riders, and all our gear 140 miles round trip to the motocross track two or three times a month during spring, summer and fall. After all that, I can give it good cleaning and it's still nice enough for four people to take out to dinner on Saturday night, go someplace nice and open the door into the side of some d-bag's brand new 5 series... What the f%@k is up with the whole "series" thing anyways, sounds like pretentious b.s. to me. "Chauncey, I seem to have inadvertently bounced the door of my Legacy series off that of your 5 series, terribly sorry, chap."

 

Finally, just to stay on topic, no one "needs" AWD, it's nice to have, but not really a necessity. I would still buy my car, if it was RWD only, but I'd need a second set of wheels to run winter tires since the all seasons would no longer cut it in the snow. If it was FWD I'd pass, FWD is for grocery getters and has no place on a car with any decent amount of power.

[Brian55]

I forgot to mention, I can also fit two half-stacks and four guitars in the back, plus a 12-pack on the front seat in order to meet up with the band and rock people's faces off. I can also fit two mountain bikes in the back without removing wheels so the wife and I can hit the trails without the need for a roof mount or noisey trailer hitch mount.

[subarovsky]

If i didnt live in Western N. Carolina, maybe Arizona or New Mexico I would drive my 2000 LS1 camaro everyday, gets better gas mileage then the legacy and is more fun with the t-tops off, and sounds better

[DirtyDan]

Hmmm, living in N.C. with a T-top Camaro.....you don't wear a mullet do you?

 

j/k

 

This is my Camaro http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i287/bluetopless/camarosidesmall.jpg