Winter tire recommendation

[TSiWRX]

^ Actually, the LM60 did not replace the LM22/25, but rather, supplements/compliments them.

 

The LM60 is still a "Performance Winter" construction, but carries, for one, the tread features of the WS60 - it's a more snow-biased tire than the 22/25.

[Bovesnh1]

Unfortunately your info regarding the LM22/LM25 is not entirely correct. I'm a marketing director for a northeast regional wholesale tire distributor, and Bridgestone is one of our biggest brands. TSI+WRX is extremely knowledgable about all things LGT, my comments are in no way meant to be confrontational, he is correct regarding the performance aspects of the Blizzak lines mention above in this post. I only point this out because I wouldn't want other members to look for a performance winter that that is no longer available.

 

Here's the breakdown on the winter tires from Bridgestone for the 2010/11 selling season. The LM22 has has been fully discontinued. The LM25's (and LM25 4x4's) are now primarily run flat performance winter tires. They are produced in a small range of sizes and focused around BMW and Nissan GTR OE fitments. If you desire a Blizzak performance winter that is not a run flat then the LM60 is your best bet. If you do not require the performance of the LM60 but still want a Blizzak then the WS70 is your tire as it has the widest range of sizes for our cars. The WS60 is still produced, but Bridgestone has pared down this line significantly in favor of the new WS70.

 

If anyone has questions about sizes and/or fitments on winter tires lemme know and I'll do my best to help out.

[TSiWRX]

^ Ah, cool! Thanks for that info!

 

Don't worry, you're not being confrontational, at all whatsoever - I like for my information to be true and correct, and without updates/corrections from people like you, that would not happen.

 

Thanks for the corrections! My apologies, instead, for not being properly up-to-date!

 

See, that's the kind of information I don't get otherwise - all I know is that X or Y retailer will say "Closeout" - but the reason for the "closeout" sale? I'm left to scratch my head...particularly if other retailers are still active with the tire (look at the "Sparco Drift" thread, where outahere was wondering if there's closeout-type pricing of the Hakka 5: yep, I'm scratching my head).

 

 

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Bovesnh1...so that begs the question, then:

 

Are the major tire manufacturers all looking towards consolidating what's available?

 

From this article, cited by outahere just the other evening:

 

http://www.tyrepress.com/News/1/127/20027.html

 

- it certainly seems like Michelin is going in that direction, in "streamlining its portfolio." Are we going to end up here in North America with more "compromise" winter tires, in that we're going to be given tires which are "good enough" to fulfill all roles (but that we will no longer be able to purchase select-mission tires), or is this a process that's happening globally?

[dmanaenk]

I'm a marketing director for a northeast regional wholesale tire distributor bet. If you do not require the performance of the LM60 but still want a Blizza

 

Cough..groupbuy..cough

[Bovesnh1]

TSI+WRX - That sir is a fantastic question which may take me several posts to answer, lol. I can only speak my firms experience with winter products, but I can say that the winter selling season is a HUGE segment of our business. A strong or weak winter season can make or break the year for a tire distributor in our region of the country. When winter cooperates - coming in hard around Thanksgiving, and continuing with frozen precip every couple weeks thru the holidays, sales go off and everyone is happy. However if the winter is weak, such was the case in the Northeast in 09/10 when all the storms went south it can make for a very tight first quarter of the coming year. More on this in a minute.

 

Winter tires are tricky products for tire distributors to order/sell. Distributors place their full winter tire order with their manufacturers just as the current winter season is ending, typically in March or April. We order based on how sales went that season. It is at that time that we learn about new technology/styles, and what if anything has been discontinued. The manufacturers pool all the distributors orders and then build the product to plus a little extra for each country that they sell. The items are delivered in July/Aug and the cycle resets for another year. Any leftover winter tires at the distributor level are theirs to keep regardless if they are current line or discontinued as the manufacturers do not allow winter tire returns. This rule can be very problematic for the distributor, especially in the case of last winter where the Northeast's typical winter was experienced by the Southeastern states and we were left with a poor showing at best.

 

Sorry for the winter tire life cycle dissertation but its sorta necessary to explain the closeouts question. Now to the answer, closeout pricing in the tire industry almost always means that the product has been discontinued. When the manufacturers discontinue a winter tire they do so right at the end of the existing season, essentially devaluing the any leftover inventory right before their eyes. If you couple a poor winter resulting in lots of extra inventory with the devalued discontinued items you could see how that could be a tough pill to swallow. We are essentially left holding the bag, we can't sell our items for at least 8 months and because the manufacturers decided to bring out a new style we must sell it for reduced profits.

 

That is likely what occurred to the dealer who is selling the Blizzak LM22's. That tire was discontinued 2 seasons ago, it is likely that they ordered heavy and now are trying to move the items as best they can with reduced closeout pricing. This is often a great opportunity for consumers to get a set of tires that they normally could not afford due to the reduced pricing. However I recommend that if you do go this route that you purchase 5 units instead of just 4. The reasoning is because of our awd system, should you destroy a tire it might be tough to get a replacement especially if the item is discontinued.

[Bovesnh1]

"re the major tire manufacturers all looking towards consolidating what's available? t certainly seems like Michelin is going in that direction, in "streamlining its portfolio." Are we going to end up here in North America with more "compromise" winter tires, in that we're going to be given tires which are "good enough" to fulfill all roles (but that we will no longer be able to purchase select-mission tires), or is this a process that's happening globally?"

 

I feel that yes the tire manufacturers are streamlining and specializing their winter tire offering based on feedback from their customers and previous years sales coupled with vehicle requirements in the automotive industry today and beyond.

 

Tire development and production is extremely expensive, the cost of the base materials (Rubber, Steel, and Oil) are often enough to make one sweat. Pair that with the R&D, testing, production, distribution, and marketing of these products you can see why you sometimes get light headed when you are told the price at your local retailer's sales counter. Manufacturers have streamlined their lines in an attempt to keep costs down while keeping the product quality high and quantities stocked.

 

In the case of the Blizzaks it didn't really make sense to have 3 performance winter tires (LM22, LM25, and LM60) with 2 different speed ratings HR and VR when you could get the job done very well with one speed rated performance winter tire line, the HR rated Blizzak LM60. Bridgestone has elected to widen the size range of the LM60 to account for all the performance winter sizes that are needed, and lower the overall speed capability from V to H, and focus the tread compound and pattern for better ice, slush, and snow performance.

 

Manufacturers produce products on a global scale, so yes this process is occurring worldwide. Changes made to tires in their winter tire lines are meant to be improvements over previous versions, though sometimes a compromise will occur to maximize its overall salability.

 

They are also trending to what consumers are buying, in this case more of the mid range and economy products vs the high end. The Firestone Winterforce is also a brand under the Bridgestone umbrella. For the 2010/11 season they expanded that line even further to include heavy LT rated versions in popular light truck sizes to attack that portion of the market where they have not had purchase in the past.

 

As for a group buy, we are not a vendor on this forum at the moment. However we do some business with one of our great vendors so I think I'll give them first crack at it, and if they are not interested I will pursue the vendor status further. I have no problem helping folks to pick the "right" tire for them, or just chatting about tires in general as it is definitely my thing, lol! Hit me with a pm or post if you have any questions and I'll do my best to get you the right answer. Have a good one and Everyone Please THINK SNOW!!!!!!!

[TSiWRX]

Bovesnh1, what a great pair of posts - thank you soooooo much for taking the time.

 

That's both intriguing and amazing, what goes on behind the scenes, that an average customer like me just don't see. Without your clarification, for me, it was truly impossible to make sense of all the comings and goings - but now, given your great explanation and the luxury of hindsight, it's, indeed, all fitting into place.

 

Thank you, truly, for taking the time to make those two wonderful posts - I hope you'll hang around here more!

[dmanaenk]

I can only speak my firms experience with winter products, but I can say that the winter selling season is a HUGE segment of our business. A strong or weak winter season can make or break the year for a tire distributor in our region of the country.

Buy weather derivatives from Goddamn Goldman Sachs

[IanB]

What does everyone think about going slightly narrower? Stock size is 215/45 but a 205/50 would be slightly narrower and only slightly increase overall rolling diameter. Besides...they are a little cheaper too which is a nice bonus.

 

I tried this with my winter tires in the past, and while narrower may be better through heavy snow, I found the majority of my winter driving is on ploughed, icy, or snowpacked roads, where the extra footprint would come in handy for braking and steering inputs. I'd stay stock sized as opposed to going skinny, unless you do the majority of your winter driving blazing fresh trails.

[Bovesnh1]

If there was such a thing as Weather Derivatives I believe our portfolio would be stocked with those as well!!!

 

TSI+WRX, you are very welcome!!! I'm happy to be able to offer some insight into the tire realm as I know it can be a very daunting to research and select the right tire for ones needs. This is especially the case with winter tires as you have determine what balance of performance, grip, wear, noise, studded v studless, etc etc works for you. I'll be around for sure, I've learned waaaaay more than I have given back on this forum, so please feel free to ask me any tire related questions.

 

My area of expertise is most focused on the brands that we sell - Bridgestone, Firestone, Dayton, Pirelli, Continental, General, Kumho, Fuzion, Falken, Mastercraft, Dick Cepek, Nankang, GeoStar, and Goodyear OE for Pass and LT products. However co-workers of mine come from many different tire backgrounds so if anyone has questions about brands I'm not a distributor of I could certainly find out and get back to you. The company I work for is a family business as well, so I've been doing it for a while and I'm in it for the long haul!!!!

 

Have a good one everyone!

 

Gene

[Bovesnh1]

I run the Stock 215/45R17 and would agree with IanB's experience, we are more often on dry roads than really messy ones so the greater contact patch would be to ones advantage for handling and braking purposes.

[dmanaenk]

If there was such a thing as Weather Derivatives I believe our portfolio would be stocked with those as well!!!

There is such a thing

 

Erm, what greater contact patch? I always thought changes to tire width (of the same tire with the same load rating etc) mostly changes the shape of contact patch, and changes in the size of contact patch are second-order effects, and overall it's not even the size that matters, but a pressure distribution across the patch.

[Bovesnh1]

Well you confused the heck outta me so I called the engineering dept at Bridgestone for an education. You are correct regarding your contact patch posting above, I used a bad choice of terminology, sorry about that.

[bluesuby]

What's your opinion of the Continental winter tires? I had a set on my Honda years ago and really liked them.

[fatbastard]

Bovesnh1...based on my OP what tire would you recommend? Honestly I am not too concerned about ice. If I know it is going to be icy I am not going out and if I don't I figure I am likely to be going faster than the studless tires would help with. Besides the local towns salt and sand the crap out of the roads. I am more concerned about snow and slush traction. I live near the ski areas so I have to go up and down a mountain every day for work, so I wanted something sure footed in snow, especially braking. I had Dunlop M3's and thought they were OK but I though my wifes A4 with RE960's was easier to drive and had better snow traction.

[outahere]

If there was such a thing as Weather Derivatives I believe our portfolio would be stocked with those as well!!!

 

I'm happy to be able to offer some insight into the tire realm.........

 

Have a good one everyone!

 

Gene

 

Gene, I have wondered why the Blizzak WS series of tires are not sold in the European market. They get ice and snow too. I believe at one time the WS50 was available in that market (I remember the WS50 getting a thrashing in the Scandinavian press), but as far as I can tell, neither the WS60 or WS70 is sold there. Is the WS series for North America only?

[stevehecht]

Gene, I have wondered why the Blizzak WS series of tires are not sold in the European market. They get ice and snow too. I believe at one time the WS50 was available in that market (I remember the WS50 getting a thrashing in the Scandinavian press), but as far as I can tell, neither the WS60 or WS70 is sold there. Is the WS series for North America only?

 

My understanding is that they get the WN series across the pond.

[Bovesnh1]

Bluesuby,

I actually really like the Continental Winter Tires. 2 seasons ago, the first winter I had my LGT I ran the Continental Winter Contact TS790 HR performance winter and really really liked them. I found the handling and braking to be very confidence inspiring. That tire is unfortunately discontinued, but the newest version called the Continental Extreme Winter Contact did very well for us last year for those customers looking for a studless winter tire that was not a Blizzak.

[fatbastard]

Bluesuby,

I actually really like the Continental Winter Tires. 2 seasons ago, the first winter I had my LGT I ran the Continental Winter Contact TS790 HR performance winter and really really liked them. I found the handling and braking to be very confidence inspiring. That tire is unfortunately discontinued, but the newest version called the Continental Extreme Winter Contact did very well for us last year for those customers looking for a studless winter tire that was not a Blizzak.

 

I had considered these as possibly a longer wearing alternative to the Blizzaks that seem to wear fast on dry roads. But I am also considering the General offering too. While I realize the General is going to give up some ice traction how would they compare in snow and slush? Especially concerned about hill climbing and braking.

[Bovesnh1]

Check out this website http://www.bridgestone.eu/bfe/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=0c2fa1e3cd80e010VgnVCM1000005101a10aRCRD&vgnextchannel=000000000000000000000000000000000377RCRD if you want to see the European Blizzak winter tire offering. So yes you are correct that Bridgestone Tire North American builds the WS and LM lines of studless winter tires designed specifically for use in N. America and Europe builds their own. However looking at Europe's offering I see design elements that have made their way into the tires that are available to us. It is also possible that Europe's offering is a testing ground for new designs in N. Americam and other areas. What is very interesting to me is that the Euro Light Truck/SUV Blizzak offering (LM25 4x4 and DM-V1) is identical to ours. My thinking is that regulatory differences might shape the differences in product, as well as development. It is my hope that we see some of their tires in the future, but that is Bridgestone NA's decision.

[Bovesnh1]

Fatbastard,

The General Altimax Arctic is an excellent winter tire as well, we sell literally thousands of those a season. General is now owned by Continental, as such they share research and development, and some tire technologies. The Arctic offers the user a cutting edge directional tread pattern, multi-angle siping, is studable should you want to further enhance its on ice grip, and a very affordable price which is why it is such a good seller for us.

 

I sold a set of these to a buddy with a very powerful tuned Mitsu Evo 9 last year, 225/45R17's (not studded) on his factory Evo wheels. He said that they performed exceptionally well in the storms that we got last year, and was really surprised that a tire that "cheap" did as well as it did. A co-worker of mine also has an tuned evo and he runs the same tire 225/45R17 studded for ice racing and winter daily driving purposes and has always had good luck with them.

[Bovesnh1]

Its interesting that you felt you had better luck in the winter on your wife's Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS pole positions which are a premium all season performance tire vs the Dunlop M3 winter performance tire. What didn't you like about your M3's?

 

Looking at the Dunlop M3's performance capabilities in our factory size (215/45R17 91V speed rating) I'd bet they offered a great dry road feel, similar to an all season performance tire, but might have fallen a little short on snow grip when the messy stuff hit?

[fatbastard]

I couldn't do studded since I am not sure if they are still legal and they are usually noisy as hell and with a newborn on the way it may make the car too loud and rough. As it is the exhaust may be coming off. Obviously the price of the General gives it an advantage but what does it give up compared to the Continental? Do they both wear about the same?

[fatbastard]

Its interesting that you felt you had better luck in the winter on your wife's Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS pole positions which are a premium all season performance tire vs the Dunlop M3 winter performance tire. What didn't you like about your M3's?

It isn't that I didn'y like the M3's, they were good in the snow but didn't feel as sure footed as the 960's on the wifes A4. I realize one is a winter and the other an all season but I did feel safer with the 960's. We live part way up the mountain and while I would often feel wheel slip and get a slight fishtail the wifes car tracked straight and no fishtailing at all. Her can is Quattro but doesn't have ESC so this wasn't a regulated vs unregulated thing. I also found her car was far more capable of pulling out of a snowed in spot than mine. An example of this is in the picture attached, her car was able to pull out of the spot with a little convincing but mine needed half of the snow curl removed to get out. Ride heights are pretty close and with depths that high both cars were getting lifted a bit so I don't think that was the only factor.

[TSiWRX]

In my view, the General Altimax Arctic, based on their background, is a proven capable snow-mover. Yes, it may be yesteryear's technology, but at the price that they're sold, it's really hard to ask for more (and again, that's not to say that they're not already quite capable to begin with).

 

You said, fatbastard, that you're not really that worried about ice - if that's the case, then the snow-moving capabilities of the Arctics may be just your bet, particularly as it ranks high on the bang-for-the-bucks ratio, which always help, with a new mouth to feed. (Congrats, BTW! )

 

I've also been led to believe both from owner (trusted) reports as well as the tread-design that this tire should be a capable slush-mover..... Anyone with some data on this (including the NordFrost 3)? It seems logical that this should be the case.

 

Also, is it just my imagination, or are the braking parameters dependent on different physics/physical interactions than the forward-going factors? For example, the Pirelli WinterCarving (which utilizes the same basic tread pattern, with select differences) seems to do better at going forward than they are at retarding forward motion - i.e. braking.

 

 

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RE: outahere's question regarding the Bridgestone global picture:

 

So yes you are correct that Bridgestone Tire North American builds the WS and LM lines of studless winter tires designed specifically for use in N. America and Europe builds their own. However looking at Europe's offering I see design elements that have made their way into the tires that are available to us. It is also possible that Europe's offering is a testing ground for new designs in N. Americam and other areas. What is very interesting to me is that the Euro Light Truck/SUV Blizzak offering (LM25 4x4 and DM-V1) is identical to ours. My thinking is that regulatory differences might shape the differences in product, as well as development. It is my hope that we see some of their tires in the future, but that is Bridgestone NA's decision.

 

I posted this on another Forum (SubaruForester.org), and I wanted to cross it over to here, to see if there's actually any validity -

 

What scares me a little is that the big companies are starting (or, rather, should I say, already have - since, thanks to Bovesnh1's posts, I've now learned that we're simply seeing what's already been done, two seasons ago, up the supply chain) to consolidate their winter product lines.

 

The LM60, for example, is actually a replacement for the LM22/25, and in an article outahere pointed me to on another thread about the new Michelin Alpin A4, the interviewed Michelin source said much the same about their product line plans.

 

I honestly don't know if this fear is founded, though. By my age-group, I've been ingrained to think of tires as specific-function tools: that their optimum exists in a very narrow corridor/range, and that each tire has a very, very specific purpose. Yet, it is very conceivable that with today's advances, particularly in the "micro" and unseen aspects of the tire, that such considerations are no longer a true worry.

 

At the same time, if that's the case, that there's going to be more consolidation, I also can't help but think that tire-testing results are going to become harder and harder to interpret, given that a "Brand X Tire YZ" marketed in Europe may be all but completely dis-similar form the same "Brand X Tire YZ" that's marketed in North-America, with the exception of only the visible tread and sidewall graphics.

 

Am I just giving myself gray hairs here, for nothing?