Winter tire recommendation

[fatbastard]

In my view, the General Altimax Arctic, based on their background, is a proven capable snow-mover. Yes, it may be yesteryear's technology, but at the price that they're sold, it's really hard to ask for more (and again, that's not to say that they're not already quite capable to begin with).

 

You said, fatbastard, that you're not really that worried about ice - if that's the case, then the snow-moving capabilities of the Arctics may be just your bet, particularly as it ranks high on the bang-for-the-bucks ratio, which always help, with a new mouth to feed. (Congrats, BTW! )

 

I've also been led to believe both from owner (trusted) reports as well as the tread-design that this tire should be a capable slush-mover..... Anyone with some data on this (including the NordFrost 3)? It seems logical that this should be the case.

 

Also, is it just my imagination, or are the braking parameters dependent on different physics/physical interactions than the forward-going factors? For example, the Pirelli WinterCarving (which utilizes the same basic tread pattern, with select differences) seems to do better at going forward than they are at retarding forward motion - i.e. braking.

 

From your trusted reports, how did they think these tires handled the dry? Were they really squirmy did they wear fast? My first priority to to get something more sure footed than the M3, second would be to be cost. I would also agree that a tire that goes well doesn't always stop well especially in snow.

 

Oh and thanks for the congrats....we are pretty damn excited.

[Bovesnh1]

First I am jealous of your snow! I agree with you on the studs, to much noise. The Generals are very capable winter tires without the studs. I think that you would have good luck with either the General or the Continental in terms of wear and snow capability, it really comes down to how much you want to spend.

 

You might also check out the Firestone Winterforce, it is an extremely aggressive winter tire that many of our customers love. In snow, even very very deep stuff this one is tough to beat! I had this tire on my WRX wagon back in 02-03 and it was insanely good in the snow, I never missed a trip to the hill, these always got me there safely. Dry road feel to me was a little too "loose" for my liking, so I switched to a performance winter style the following seasons, but in the sloppy snowy conditions the Winterforce was one of the best winter tires I have ever had.

[fatbastard]

Is the Winterforce even offered in our size? The TR deosn't list it and their offering of the tire didn't go below 50 series. Or is this just likely to be what they have on hand?

 

Oh and snow like that doesn't happen often. We usually get 2 good storms a year that are at least a foot, but some years we have gotten 3-4 storms that big with some being as much as 3 feet!

[Bovesnh1]

Sorry I'm a dumbass, they are building the WF in the Subie Outback sizes, I should have looked at that before I suggested it, sorry about that. I only mentioned it because it is an affordable tire that has an excellent rep. It was produced in the WRX factory 205/55R16, which is what made me think of it.

[dubunderpar]

FWIW I run the Altimax Arctic and my wife runs Blizzaks and both work well, but I feel that the generals perform better in heavier snow conditions, but as far as ice and packed snow they were both awsome. Oh and I also got both sets on C-list with rims (less than 5k miles on each) for the price of one set of new blizzaks mounted and balanced.

[MikeNH]

 

You might also check out the Firestone Winterforce, it is an extremely aggressive winter tire that many of our customers love. In snow, even very very deep stuff this one is tough to beat! I had this tire on my WRX wagon back in 02-03 and it was insanely good in the snow, I never missed a trip to the hill, these always got me there safely. Dry road feel to me was a little too "loose" for my liking, so I switched to a performance winter style the following seasons, but in the sloppy snowy conditions the Winterforce was one of the best winter tires I have ever had.

So the Firestone is a decent tire? With my 2010 I'll be looking at 225/50/17s for snows and the only ones I'd really consider in that size are the Firestone, the WS70 from Bridgestone and the Xi2. Are there other tires I should be considering? Cost isn't a huge concern, but if the Winterforce is that good I certainly won't say no to saving some cash. Also, thoughts on treadlife? How much I drive has been wildly unpredictable for me the past few months but at the peak I'd say 1200-1500 miles a month would not be an unreasonable expectation for me if I ever get off the road and spend some time in the office.

[outahere]

The November 2010 issue of CR will have their tire test results, including performance winters, of which the top 3 are the Nokian WR G2, Hankook Winter i*Cept Evo, and the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3.

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/79479/cr_uhp_tire_tests_shine_for_goodyear_michelin.aspx

 

The German ADAC test results of performance winters should be available around Sep 23 (assuming I have read the German text correctly).

[krzyss]

Thanks for finding it.

"The Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric, Dunlop SP Sport Maxx GT and Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 all achieved “Excellent” overall scores in CR’s evaluation of braking, handling, hydroplaning, tread life, rolling resistance and noise.

The Continental Extreme Contact DW and the Hankook Ventus V12 evo K110 scored just below those three."

 

I have Ventus V12 and I like them. It seems that they deliver 90% performance for 50% price.

 

Krzys

[stevehecht]

The Continental Extreme Contact DW and the Hankook Ventus V12 evo K110 scored just below those three."

 

I have Ventus V12 and I like them. It seems that they deliver 90% performance for 50% price.

 

Krzys

 

I think you probably meant to say Continental Extreme Contact DWS, correct? I have the Hankook Ventus V12 on my V6 Accord and they are a hoot--much better than the Kumho Ecsta SPT they replaced.

[cfaber]

The DW and DWS are different compounds and tread patterns, the DW is an older design as well.

 

I run the DWS now and they handle well on the dry pavement and amazingly on wet and snowy pavement.

 

Driving in the wet, I've yet to get the car to slide at all. I highly recommend these tires.

[TSiWRX]

^ cfaber and stevehecht -

 

krzyss was referring to what was said in the article that outahere out-linked to:

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/79479/cr_uhp_tire_tests_shine_for_goodyear_michelin.aspx

 

The Continental Extreme Contact DW and the Hankook Ventus V12 evo K110 scored just below those three.

 

^ That was in regard, specifically, to the CR results of "summer tires."

 

Later in the article, the author addressed CR's mention of the "UHP All-Season" genre, where the Conti DWS was mentioned:

 

The three top-scoring tires in the all-season UHP category were the Pirelli P Zero Nero All-Season, the Sumitomo HTR A/S P01, and the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus. The Pilot Sport A/S Plus tied with the fourth-place finisher, the Continental Extreme Contact DWS.

 

Yet later in the article they go on to talk about the "Performance Winter" sub-genre.

 

krzyss was citing the price difference of the Conti DW and Hankook V12 K110 versus that of the Goodyear, Dunlop, and Michelins, in his discussion of the "Summer Tires."

 

That article cited a lot - it's a little confusing, but there's clear separations of the different tire types.

[outahere]

...............The General Altimax Arctic is an excellent winter tire as well, we sell literally thousands of those a season. General is now owned by Continental, as such they share research and development, and some tire technologies. The Arctic offers the user a cutting edge directional tread pattern, multi-angle siping, is studable should you want to further enhance its on ice grip, and a very affordable price which is why it is such a good seller for us.......

 

Continental is getting a lot of mileage out of those Gislaved Nordfrost3 molds. The Artic gets a lot of favorable customer reviews at the various automotive forums I have visited.

 

Here is some interesting info about them:

 

"Sometimes it does take a rocket scientist to design a tire. Dr. Burkhard Wies, vice president of tire line development worldwide for Continental AG, helped develop the new General Altimax Arctic..............................

 

Wies knows everything about the tire, which is made with a higher percentage of natural rubber than many of its competitors, thanks to extensive testing. Some of the following tests were performed by an independent third party, so he is confident that the tire performs as advertised.

 

1. Load. The Altimax Arctic was tested on different vehicles. "We get a representative sketch of the market, so we don't test on just one car." Wies says some of the vehicles were overloaded.

 

2. Temperature. For example under snowy conditions, at 32 degrees Fahrenheit or less, the compound had to be supple enough to bend the block to open the sipe to grip the road or ice. He says braking performance is targeted.

 

3. Winter conditions. Was the snow packed or loose? Was the ice wet or dry? Wies says all this was tested.

 

4. Wear. Wies admits that the wear testing on the Altimax Arctic was done more by association, per research done by its Gislaved subsidiary. "We have done studies on wear -- not for this tire -- on tires with similar pattern used in Sweden."

 

5. Irregular wear. Continental field tested the tires with and without studs with the help of its fleet customers. "The stud has to work and wear at the same time."

 

6. Front-wheel and rear-wheel drive. The tire was tested on both types of vehicles. Wies says a 4x4 test on ice, "especially under heavy load conditions," was a first for the company.

 

7. Pressure. "Yes, we reduced pressure slightly -- not significantly, maybe 20%. Grip normally increases as the pressure decreases. It can, of course, destroy mileage."

 

Wies says Continental does a lot of subjective testing as well, such as putting two winter tires on the front of the vehicle even if you wouldn't normally do that "so as to test braking, not steering."

 

The tires also were tested on vehicles with traction control, ESP (electronic stability program) and ABS (anti-lock brakes). In Europe, traction control is sometimes referred to as ASR (anti-slip regulation). "It's easy to make a tire good in a high-slip area, but you need it to perform in a low-slip area, too," says Wies.

 

General Altimax Arctic: It will be available in 26 sizes next winter

 

Continental Tire North America Inc. is touting the Altimax Arctic as the first true winter tire marketed under the General brand name. It combines unique grooves and sipes with an all-weather, dual tread compound for high performance at low temperatures..........................................

 

The tire features Reactive Contour Technology, which allows the contour of the tire to react to different road conditions for optimum road contact throughout the life of the tire............................................"

 

http://www.moderntiredealer.com/Article/Print/Story/2007/03/Winter-fest-Brrr-The-colder-it-gets-the-warmer-a-winter-tire-stays.aspx

[stevehecht]

^ cfaber and stevehecht -

 

krzyss was referring to what was said in the article that outahere out-linked to:

 

http://www.tirereview.com/Article/79479/cr_uhp_tire_tests_shine_for_goodyear_michelin.aspx

 

 

 

^ That was in regard, specifically, to the CR results of "summer tires."

 

Later in the article, the author addressed CR's mention of the "UHP All-Season" genre, where the Conti DWS was mentioned:

 

 

 

Yet later in the article they go on to talk about the "Performance Winter" sub-genre.

 

krzyss was citing the price difference of the Conti DW and Hankook V12 K110 versus that of the Goodyear, Dunlop, and Michelins, in his discussion of the "Summer Tires."

 

That article cited a lot - it's a little confusing, but there's clear separations of the different tire types.

 

Thanks TSi for the clarification. I had forgotten that the DW and DWS are in two different categories.

[TSiWRX]

^ It's hard keeping track!

 

I'm trying now to diversify into summer tires, too. I've been relying on my friends, on that front, for too long - and since I'm likely going to be looking for a new set within the next two seasons, well, it's time to drink from the fire-hydrant, as they like to say.

[RIPjeep2002]

^^^Hankook Ventus V12. Best tire for the price.

 

 

Back on topic, I do not plan on running a dedicated winter since the trasportation authority does well to keep roads clear. Instead, I plan on running the Extreme Contact DWS is 225/45/17. Best non-snow tire around.

[fatbastard]

^^^Hankook Ventus V12. Best tire for the price.

 

 

Back on topic, I do not plan on running a dedicated winter since the trasportation authority does well to keep roads clear. Instead, I plan on running the Extreme Contact DWS is 225/45/17. Best non-snow tire around.

 

I have heard those tires, well I should say the model that preceeded them were very good in the snow. I thought about going to something like that but I have two sets of wheels so why not have the best tire for the job? Also, I am very concerned about the local budget cuts and how that is going to effect snow removal. We already saw last winter that as soon as school was closed/cancelled the amount of plowing seemed to drop off big time. They also used to spread sand/salt during a storm for extra grip between passes but they stopped this and only doing it when there are light flurries or the storm is over. I realize it makes sense in really heavy storms but it did make a difference for those day long storms. Just makes me wonder what else they will surprise me with.

[dubunderpar]

As we are all aware, counties are all under tough financial times. This winter is going to show in some ways the lack of money in the budgets. Our town (Higher income area) has already said that less plows and salt trucks will be running this year to close the budget gaps. They are encouraging people to stay off the roads if possible during inclimate weather because road conditions will be poor. This is really not possible, because as everyone from the NE knows upstate and central NY get slammed every year and average 122 inches here in Syracuse. Not sure what the weather is like down there, but here not having snow tires or at least good all seasons here in the winter is setting yourself up for trouble, or at least an accident.

[fatbastard]

No lake effect snow hear but still we tend to get some messy weather as the storms usually occur right around the freezing mark so they tend to be wet and slushy on the road. Couple that with hilly roads with no gaurd rails or shoulders, porrly designed roads (off camber turns) and often several miles stretches of nothing but trees and it can often be a white knuckle event.

[TSiWRX]

From your trusted reports, how did they think these tires handled the dry? Were they really squirmy did they wear fast? My first priority to to get something more sure footed than the M3, second would be to be cost.

 

Hey bro, sorry, didn't mean to ignore your post - I just wanted to look things up, and not speak from recall.

 

The disappointing thing is that none seemed to rate precisely what you wanted, in the manner that you wanted: none of the testing really quantitated wear, and what's more, of the single test I could find of the defunct NordFrost 3 (aka current General Altimax Arctic's outer shell), the testers (Swedish) did not quantitate dry pavement performance, and instead, focused on wet.

 

Now, of the latter, both ABS-braking and stability (subjective) ranked very highly on this tire.

 

Given your need for more winter-weather traction than which is provided by typical "Performance Winters," along with a concern for affordable pricing, the Altimax Arctic might fit your situation very nicely.

[dmanaenk]

Also keep in mind that if 'global warming' was to manifest itself locally - it wouldn't be in warmer averages, it'd probably show up as random 'weird' weather events. Like freaky-heavy snowstorm in DC, or -40F in somewhere not too far north. And at -40F anti-ice fluids fail.

[TSiWRX]

Tornadoes in NYC?

 

----

 

dmanaenk, since you're in MI - have you ever used Tires By Web?

 

http://www.tiresbyweb.com/

[outahere]

........ of the single test I could find of the defunct NordFrost 3 (aka current General Altimax Arctic's outer shell), the testers (Swedish) did not quantitate dry pavement performance, and instead, focused on wet...........

 

Yes, the only dry tests I can recall from the Scandinavian testing are the "moose avoidance test on dry asphalt", and the scoring is subjective. In 2005 the studded Nordfrost3 scored 7, in a field where scores ranged from 5 to 8.

And the mushy Blizzak WS50 was rated a 6.

 

Some other interesting tidbits from that 2005 test:

Results for ice braking, from 50 km/hr

 

Pirelli Winter Carving (studded): 40.5 m

Michelin X-Ice: 53.5 m

Blizzak WS50: 69.0 m

[dmanaenk]

dmanaenk, since you're in MI - have you ever used Tires By Web?

Nope.

[TSiWRX]

^ Thanks anyway.

[stevehecht]

Yes, the only dry tests I can recall from the Scandinavian testing are the "moose avoidance test on dry asphalt", and the scoring is subjective. In 2005 the studded Nordfrost3 scored 7, in a field where scores ranged from 5 to 8.

And the mushy Blizzak WS50 was rated a 6.

 

Some other interesting tidbits from that 2005 test:

Results for ice braking, from 50 km/hr

 

Pirelli Winter Carving (studded): 40.5 m

Michelin X-Ice: 53.5 m

Blizzak WS50: 69.0 m

 

Result in 2009 NAF test for ice braking for X-Ice Xi2=61.8m. Go figure.