New Road & Track "Premium Sport Sedan" Comparo

[rao]

and it doesn't include the Legacy GT

 

They tested the Acura TL SH-AWD, Audi S4, BMW 335i Sport (isn't that redundant ) and Infiniti G37S Sport (once again, isn't that redundant )

 

No love for the Legacy

[nemo]

No Maxima? Isn't that 4DSC?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Nope.

 

Legacy was just in the mainstream family sedan comparo, and got 5th out of 7.

 

Shows where the auto press thinks that the new Legacy fits into the equation.

[Mad1]

I was going to say, Subaru no longer competes in the premium sport sedan catagory do they?

[MikeNH]

I was going to say, Subaru no longer competes in the premium sport sedan catagory do they?

Well considering it's down 40 HP from any of those, I find it hard to believe it could compete even if it hadn't become as awful as most of you make it out to be.

[mattg]

I'm going to go ahead and assume that the "premium" contenders also have nicer interiors and cost a good bit more than the 5th gen Leg.

[GTTuner]

I have not read the mag or this thread but I bet money the Bimmer won.

[Penguin]

I have not read the mag or this thread but I bet money the Bimmer won.

 

Haven't read it yet either, but last time the Audi S4 and BMW 335i were pitted against one another the S4 came out on top.

[Guest heightsgtltd]

I'm normally game for one of Rao's threads, but the LGT hasn't been a serious competitor to the S4 since the Biturbo v6 model two generations ago let alone the 335i or G37

[Penguin]

Agreed.

 

Face it the LGT is a competitor with Camry SE's, Accord, and Altima. Except in some ways it is not as good as those cars.

[BradyCat]

I have not read the mag or this thread but I bet money the Bimmer won.

Nope S4 won, just like it did in a recent Car and Driver comparo.

[Guest heightsgtltd]

Agreed.

 

Face it the LGT is a competitor with Camry SE's, Accord, and Altima. Except in some ways it is not as good as those cars.

 

and I'd give a new Hyundai Sonata turbo a good hard look before a new LGT.

[Penguin]

and I'd give a new Hyundai Sonata turbo a good hard look before a new LGT.

 

I would give a whole bunch of other cars a good look before a new LGT. Hell I might not even give a new LGT a look at all.

[TPLGT]

I would give a whole bunch of other cars a good look before a new LGT. Hell I might not even give a new LGT a look at all.

 

Pretty sad isn't it....?

[Bbc84]

and I'd give a new Hyundai Sonata turbo a good hard look before a new LGT.

 

 

And the new Kia Optima too has the option turbo and hybrid engine from Sonata, and also has 6spd manual option

[BradyCat]

I know they do, but find it weird that people would cross shop front drivers with AWD Subarus. For me the first thing I decide when I'm buying a car is 2 door/4 door/wagon, then AWD/FWD/RWD. Before I bought I cross shopped the German and Japanese 4 door AWD sedans, and chose Subaru for the price and performance.

 

It reminds me of those posts where someone's looking for help deciding what to buy, and they've got the choices down to an LGT or an S2000, it boggles my mind:spin:

[Bbc84]

I know they do, but find it weird that people would cross shop front drivers with AWD Subarus. For me the first thing I decide when I'm buying a car is 2 door/4 door/wagon, then AWD/FWD/RWD. Before I bought I cross shopped the German and Japanese 4 door AWD sedans, and chose Subaru for the price and performance.

 

 

When I bought my 08' LGT I was looking at German and Japanese AWD Sedans too.

 

But if I had to choose between a 5th gen Legacy or one of these new FWD Hyundai/Kia's I think ill settle for FWD

[Viber]

I was going to say, Subaru no longer competes in the premium sport sedan catagory do they?

 

Nope. It's the car for fatties, soccer moms and geriatrics now.

 

It's all about the cup holders and how many Ritalin addicted kids you can fit in the back seat these days, not actually being a good car that can hold its own against vehicles that cost 10k more.

[MikeNH]

Nope. It's the car for fatties, soccer moms and geriatrics now.

 

It's all about the cup holders and how many Ritalin addicted kids you can fit in the back seat these days, not actually being a good car that can hold its own against vehicles that cost 10k more.

Nice generalization.

It is not possible to make a car with the shit you want at the $30k-ish price point. If they took things out of the interior to give it more power to be competitive with the other sport sedans, you'd piss and moan about it not having pointless crap like folding/signal mirrors and push button start and the pointless SI Drive (all you need is the S# setting- it's a sporty car, I bought it because it's fun to drive, I could give a crap about fuel efficiency). If they added that crap to the car, the cost would likely have to come from the engine and that'd be even worse. You can option up plenty of slow boring cars with real nice interiors but that's not going to satisfy anyone. If they did both the car would easily approach $40k and no one aside from a small fringe market is going to pay $40k for a Subaru, sorry. If your primary concern is performance than buy a damn WRX or a sporty 2 door from the dozens of manufacturers that offer them- many of them will out accelerate and out handle any LGT Subaru ever made. I see the 05-09s as a pointless car- it's very nice and all but the back seat is useless unless your kid is out of a car seat but pre-teen or a tiny adult. The only reason I bought a 4-door was for it's people hauling utility and the LGT is the only one in the $30k area with AWD that is fun to drive. If I wasn't concerned about being able to carry people I'd have bought the WRX and be driving circles around all of you.

[IwannaSportSedan]

That is a bit of hyperbole there.

 

The '10 Legacy GT's problem isn't it's horsepower, so adding more isn't all that big of a deal. Plus it would only be a software update to do, anyway. It pretty much already matches the STI capability. Which is the same as STI 5 years ago.

 

Pointless crap like folding signal mirrors... Something that other brands are offering on cars costing 20K or less. LEDs in the mirrors are CHEAP. A joint in the housing is CHEAP. It offers visiblity which translates to safety. It also prevents damage by giving way, rather than breaking off. Something that everyone has known for a long time.

 

Maybe you don't care about SI Drive. But versatility is something that most people DO want in their AWD vehicle.

 

It doesn't make a damn difference how sporty your car is if the cruise control is set for the highway... why not set the throttle curve and the optional AT shift points to drive well and efficiently for that, when you aren't ram-rodding your car around?

 

Did it ever occur to you that some people want to pay for a car with a nice interior, and good looks, and comfort for longer drives, along with the car being fun to drive? Some people spend a significant amount of time in the interior of their cars.

 

If you call the 2005-2009 Legacy GT Pointless, then why do you even consider the 2010 Legacy GT? Does the high roof and big rear seat really make all the difference?

 

BTW... my wife and mother sit in the rear seat, with my father an I in the front seat, just fine in my 2005 Legacy GT.

 

And if you thought the LGT was the only option, then you missed the Audi A4, and G37x. even though they are a bit more... hold overs, rebates, and used are options. Legacy used to be a better value... now it is merely cheaper.

 

Why didn't you consider AWD Ford Edge Sport, if fun to drive, and hauling passengers was such a big deal? A CUV does it better than a Sedan can, and some vehicles with V6s have more power than Legacy GT does... If you are going to have a bulky vehicle anyway... I'm just saying.

 

You seem to be rationalizing and justifying your 2010 Legacy GT purchase by somewhat un-necessarily denegrating it's predecessor that was well appreciated by some of us, and better equipped for the price.

[MikeNH]

That is a bit of hyperbole there.

 

Pointless crap like folding signal mirrors... Something that other brands are offering on cars costing 20K or less. LEDs in the mirrors are CHEAP. A joint in the housing is CHEAP. It offers visiblity which translates to safety. It also prevents damage by giving way, rather than breaking off. Something that everyone has known for a long time.

Most drivers are morons, I can't see an additional light being any help when a driver tries to merge into a lane occupied by a SUV-driving soccer mom on her cell and having her morning coffee while yelling at the kids in the back.

 

That is a bit of hyperbole there.

 

 

Maybe you don't care about SI Drive. But versatility is something that most people DO want in their AWD vehicle.

 

I am unaware of any other manufacturer of mainstream cars that has a feature like this. I know Porsche has something similar in some of their cars but I had never heard of it on any other non-high end car. I mean most comments I've seen on here about SI Drive call the i mode doggish. So that leaves you with "sorta" sporty and normal? Personally I want my cars full capacity available at all times, as there are situations when accelerating quickly to avoid something will work better than slowing. In times like that I don't want to have to turn some knob first to make sure my car knows I mean business when I get on it.

 

That is a bit of hyperbole there.

Did it ever occur to you that some people want to pay for a car with a nice interior, and good looks, and comfort for longer drives, along with the car being fun to drive? Some people spend a significant amount of time in the interior of their cars.

I can't see any situation where the 05-09s would be more comfortable. They may have better bolstering for spirited driving but beyond that they're too narrow to me. Along the same lines, aside from a nicer nav integration I don't see where the interior is nicer on the older models. And the all in one hvac/radio controls looks like a nightmare for an audio enthusiast. And looks are totally subjective. I like the lines of the 05-09s, but I like the style of the 2010 as well.

 

That is a bit of hyperbole there.

 

 

 

If you call the 2005-2009 Legacy GT Pointless, then why do you even consider the 2010 Legacy GT? Does the high roof and big rear seat really make all the difference?

 

BTW... my wife and mother sit in the rear seat, with my father an I in the front seat, just fine in my 2005 Legacy GT.

 

Yes. At work we have an 08 Outback and there isn't much space between my head and the roof. This OB has no sunroof so with it I'm sure my head would be about into the roof, if not actually hitting it. I can't stand driving with my seat reclined so this makes shorter cars that much more troublesome for me. And I've been in the back of that same OB, the seat is no place for 6 footers. I think it was unclemat that wrote in a different thread that Subaru previously designed all its products around the home market in Japan. No idea if this is accurate but if it is than that ought to highlight my point. I'm a little over 6' tall, I'm not gonna fit in the same space as your average Japanese person. And going back to the OB, the e-brake handle is always stabbing me in the leg, so having the electronic setup got rid of that issue along with opening up the console space some.

 

That is a bit of hyperbole there.

 

And if you thought the LGT was the only option, then you missed the Audi A4, and G37x. even though they are a bit more... hold overs, rebates, and used are options. Legacy used to be a better value... now it is merely cheaper.

 

Why didn't you consider AWD Ford Edge Sport, if fun to drive, and hauling passengers was such a big deal? A CUV does it better than a Sedan can, and some vehicles with V6s have more power than Legacy GT does... If you are going to have a bulky vehicle anyway... I'm just saying.

 

The Audi and Infiniti are significantly more money- the G37x starts at $36k. I don't think I could talk them down $8k. I don't like the lower end Audis, they're definitely too small and they don't do much for me. A guy at work has a 06 S4. Fast, fun, looks nice. But with the front seat back far enough for me, there was no space on the rear floor to put my takeout container from lunch. And I wouldn't consider the Edge or any other CUV because they won't be fun to drive and in pretty much every case other than the Audis, the AWD is going to be front only until slippage occurs. I wanted full time AWD. I don't want a microchip deciding when I should have AWD, I just want it there.

 

I didn't look at used because I'd never buy a used sporty car as a daily driver, chances are it will have led a rough life in the past. That said, who else makes a sporty AWD car with a manual trans for <$30k?

 

I also don't consider the Legacy "bulky". It's a family sized sedan. CUVs and SUVs are bulky. Minivans are bulky. Large cars like the Crown Vic are bulky. I don't consider the other similar sized cars out there (Camry/Accord) as bulky.

 

That is a bit of hyperbole there.

 

You seem to be rationalizing and justifying your 2010 Legacy GT purchase by somewhat un-necessarily denegrating it's predecessor that was well appreciated by some of us, and better equipped for the price.

Yes, I am. I don't see it being any different than any number of the duchebag 05-09 owners who constantly are slamming the 2010 because it's not what they think it should be. It may be hard to believe, but a vast majority of Legacy owners aren't on this site or any other owner forum and that said, Subaru isn't going to design the dream car of the whining people on here because it would cost $50k and no one will ever pay that for a Subaru.

[IwannaSportSedan]

It is a false premise that a good car has to cost more than people are willing to pay.

 

If Subaru isn't going to step up with better value,

 

Kia/Hyundai is going to eat Subaru's lunch, and move on.

 

Most drivers are morons, I can't see an additional light being any help when a driver tries to merge into a lane occupied by a SUV-driving soccer mom on her cell and having her morning coffee while yelling at the kids in the back.

 

So your logic is to not bother trying to be safe, and not trying to make signals obvious from several angles?

 

I am unaware of any other manufacturer of mainstream cars that has a feature like this. I know Porsche has something similar in some of their cars but I had never heard of it on any other non-high end car. I mean most comments I've seen on here about SI Drive call the i mode doggish. So that leaves you with "sorta" sporty and normal? Personally I want my cars full capacity available at all times, as there are situations when accelerating quickly to avoid something will work better than slowing. In times like that I don't want to have to turn some knob first to make sure my car knows I mean business when I get on it.

 

You don't need to lecture me on evasive driving. But again, you seem to think that de-contenting is better than improvement.

 

Maybe it needed a tweak to improve SI-Drive's profiles, but I don't think it was a bad idea to make something more adaptable.

 

And some ROM memory, and an electronic switch don't cost much.

 

I can't see any situation where the 05-09s would be more comfortable. They may have better bolstering for spirited driving but beyond that they're too narrow to me. Along the same lines, aside from a nicer nav integration I don't see where the interior is nicer on the older models. And the all in one hvac/radio controls looks like a nightmare for an audio enthusiast. And looks are totally subjective. I like the lines of the 05-09s, but I like the style of the 2010 as well.

 

I am not a thin nor short guy. My 2005 seats are fine, other than being a bit short of seat base length, and my leg goes to sleep after a few hours.

 

The "all-in-one" electronics as far as I can tell, are still integrated on the new cars.

 

Ergonomics are not subjective, and looks being subjective doesn't make them insignificant. Do you want to live in an ugly house? Work in a soul-less cubicle your whole life?

 

IF you can state your opinion, I'll restate mine. I think the new interior looks pedestrian, less sophisticated, and the center console looks like a mall kiosk, not a sport sedan.

 

Yes. At work we have an 08 Outback and there isn't much space between my head and the roof. This OB has no sunroof so with it I'm sure my head would be about into the roof, if not actually hitting it. I can't stand driving with my seat reclined so this makes shorter cars that much more troublesome for me. And I've been in the back of that same OB, the seat is no place for 6 footers. I think it was unclemat that wrote in a different thread that Subaru previously designed all its products around the home market in Japan. No idea if this is accurate but if it is than that ought to highlight my point. I'm a little over 6' tall, I'm not gonna fit in the same space as your average Japanese person. And going back to the OB, the e-brake handle is always stabbing me in the leg, so having the electronic setup got rid of that issue along with opening up the console space some.

 

I am 6'2" tall, and I DO have a moonroof in my sedan. And I fit just fine, thanks. I don't sit in the back seat of my own car, but I have gotten back there to clean periodically, and I do fit. My 5'9" wife fits back there if I have a tall front seat passenger, just fine.

 

If you want a high roof, buy a CUV. A sport sedan should have a lower aerodynamic profile than the '10 Legacy does, which, AGAIN, is the tallest in it's class by more than an inch, if I remember the discussion about dimensions.

 

The Audi and Infiniti are significantly more money- the G37x starts at $36k. I don't think I could talk them down $8k. I don't like the lower end Audis, they're definitely too small and they don't do much for me. A guy at work has a 06 S4. Fast, fun, looks nice. But with the front seat back far enough for me, there was no space on the rear floor to put my takeout container from lunch. And I wouldn't consider the Edge or any other CUV because they won't be fun to drive and in pretty much every case other than the Audis, the AWD is going to be front only until slippage occurs. I wanted full time AWD. I don't want a microchip deciding when I should have AWD, I just want it there.

 

A full boat Legacy GT or 3.6R is not 8k less than an A4 2.0T, or the G37x, and both are sportier.

 

The 2011 Edge Sport is slated to have 305hp, and reviews have actually praised it's handling dynamics... Where Legacy hasn't exactly been mentioned as outstanding in that department.

 

I don't disagree with your take on AWD.. but there is a whole lot more to a car than that... and that one distinction doesn't make up for an unattractive car, aesthetically, or other-feature-wise.

 

I didn't look at used because I'd never buy a used sporty car as a daily driver, chances are it will have led a rough life in the past. That said, who else makes a sporty AWD car with a manual trans for <$30k?

 

I guess I was a moron, by your standards, to buy a 2 year old Legacy GT from a forum member here, then. and I spent ~$20K, not 30, and it is long since paid off. I could have bought new, if I would have found something on a dealer's lot, which I couldn't. How is the stock of 2010 Legacy GTs lately? I've never even seen more than one. Period. Lots of 2.5is and some 3.6s...

 

But your argument about Subaru's price point is one I also use, but I lament the fact that 30K buys you less of a car, that takes up more space than it did. It should be a better value, and at least as good looking, even if it is a bit bigger. Value for dollar due to feature set, and aesthetics both have declined.

 

I also don't consider the Legacy "bulky". It's a family sized sedan. CUVs and SUVs are bulky. Minivans are bulky. Large cars like the Crown Vic are bulky. I don't consider the other similar sized cars out there (Camry/Accord) as bulky.

 

Have you looked at it compared to the car it replaces? Other than that... if you can use the word subjective, then so can I. Your opinion of bulky is subjective. Mine includes the '10 LEgacy, Camry, and Accord. They have all grown significantly over their previous generations... what on earth did we do before, with such dinky little matchbox cars?

 

If you want a car as big as the new 2010 Legacy GT, why not a new Taurus, then? it's full size, with optional AWD... No stick, but who offers a stick, anymore? Subaru barely does, and who knows how long that will last.

 

Yes, I am. I don't see it being any different than any number of the duchebag 05-09 owners who constantly are slamming the 2010 because it's not what they think it should be. It may be hard to believe, but a vast majority of Legacy owners aren't on this site or any other owner forum and that said, Subaru isn't going to design the dream car of the whining people on here because it would cost $50k and no one will ever pay that for a Subaru.

 

You had better civilize your tongue. I have been one of the most outspoken critics of the new model, and I do prefer the old one. I don't call you names for your opinions, even if I disagree with them.

 

I don't think the 2010 Legacy is what it should be. It should be an improvement, not a change in direction. It is a change in direction.

 

You are not bringing up news that most Legacy owners aren't forum members or enthusiasts. But that doesn't mean that mainstreaming the Legacy automatically makes enthusiasts who liked the previous format just lie down for the new model automatically.

 

Again I am going to try to make this plain:

IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A LEGACY GT TO COST ~45% MORE THAN IT DOES NOW JUST TO BE ON PAR OR A REASONABLE IMPROVEMENT OVER WHAT IT WAS LAST YEAR. It is not currently on par, nor an improvement in several criteria.

 

You jumped 20 thousand dollars, based on your own flight of fancy, and then complained that G37x and Audi A4 are too expensive, compared, even at your exaggerated margin of $8k difference, when it is probably closer to a 3-4K difference between a well optioned LGT and the entry price for an A4 or G37x. A4 and G37 are much better equipped than Legacy, even if the difference is as much as $8k in difference. A few additional bits, some software, and better design work don't add up to 20 grand.

 

And even a 1-2 year old version of those two cars are hardly likely to be hammered on by teenagers. As you say, they aren't inexpensive to begin with... and letting someone else take a couple years of high depreciation is an issue for the people selling cars, and an opportunity for those buying them.

 

Even the automotive press is comparing Legacy to Camry and Accord, not to A4 or TSX.

 

The Legacy has redacted it's sport sedan status, and has resumed a track closer to the 2000-2004 Legacy, than 2005-2009. The 2010 GT is a vestige of it's former self, in terms of option list, and inventory levels. It is probably looking at the end of the line soon, if some of the signs are to be taken seriously, like it's lack of appeal without an automatic version.

[MikeNH]

I'm just gonna put my responses in bold this time, I don't want to mess up like I did last time and start over.

 

It is a false premise that a good car has to cost more than people are willing to pay.

Maybe so, but people wanting bigger ticket things like a better radio/nav and various electronic toys will push up the price quite a bit, well past the $30k you can get a LGT for. $30k is probably the max a lot of people would want to spend on a new car, especially these days with the economy being in the tank.

If Subaru isn't going to step up with better value,

 

Kia/Hyundai is going to eat Subaru's lunch, and move on.

 

Probably. Kia/Hyundai did it/is doing it to Toyota and Honda now. If they keep it up with the turbo'd engines then add in AWD and a stick or SMG for the enthusiast then I'd agree, they will lay a smackdown on Subaru.

 

So your logic is to not bother trying to be safe, and not trying to make signals obvious from several angles?

 

I don't see them helping any is all I was trying to say. I can't say I've ever noticed them more then the normal front/rear signals on a car, and when you bring a distracted driver into the picture, I doubt any manner of lights will help. But since their presence won't hurt anything, I'll drop calling them "pointless crap" and just call them "of limited use/benefit"? Is that better?

 

 

 

You don't need to lecture me on evasive driving. But again, you seem to think that de-contenting is better than improvement. Again, I personally fail to see the appeal to many of the things that were dropped from the last model.

 

Maybe it needed a tweak to improve SI-Drive's profiles, but I don't think it was a bad idea to make something more adaptable.

 

And some ROM memory, and an electronic switch don't cost much.

I'll agree to this. Maybe add something like launch control (assuming the driveline can take the abuse)?

 

 

I am not a thin nor short guy. My 2005 seats are fine, other than being a bit short of seat base length, and my leg goes to sleep after a few hours.

Again, part of my issue with the older seats could be because it's a base OB seat that lacks the adjustibility of the LGT ones, but the seat still feels too narrow to me.

The "all-in-one" electronics as far as I can tell, are still integrated on the new cars.

HVAC and radio are separate.

 

Ergonomics are not subjective, and looks being subjective doesn't make them insignificant. Do you want to live in an ugly house? Work in a soul-less cubicle your whole life?

I don't recall saying ergonomics were subjective. That said I've yet to find a control on my 2010 or the OB at work that is poorly placed. A lot of people complain about the e-brake control being out of the way but it is easily reached and like I said, frees up the console as well. As for looks, for the most part you can't make a blanket statement that something is ugly or good looking, there will always be people who feel different. But no, I would not want to live in a house *I* find ugly. But you may find the same house appealing. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And chances are I will work in a soul-less cubical my whole life, but that's another story.

 

IF you can state your opinion, I'll restate mine. I think the new interior looks pedestrian, less sophisticated, and the center console looks like a mall kiosk, not a sport sedan.

 

See my second to last sentence above The console looks fairly plain to me in he 05-09s. And up close the brushed aluminum looking trim in the 2010s looks a lot nicer than the metal-look trim in the 08 OB at work. Again, subjective.

 

I am 6'2" tall, and I DO have a moonroof in my sedan. And I fit just fine, thanks. I don't sit in the back seat of my own car, but I have gotten back there to clean periodically, and I do fit. My 5'9" wife fits back there if I have a tall front seat passenger, just fine.

 

If you want a high roof, buy a CUV. A sport sedan should have a lower aerodynamic profile than the '10 Legacy does, which, AGAIN, is the tallest in it's class by more than an inch, if I remember the discussion about dimensions.

 

I'm glad your car works for you, however I still don't feel like it would for me. As for what a sport sedan should or should not have, I don't really care. I enjoy the car, it's quick and is fun to drive. That's all that really matters. The only reason I bashed the older model is to turn the tables on those who have been doing it to the 2010.

 

A full boat Legacy GT or 3.6R is not 8k less than an A4 2.0T, or the G37x, and both are sportier.

 

The 2011 Edge Sport is slated to have 305hp, and reviews have actually praised it's handling dynamics... Where Legacy hasn't exactly been mentioned as outstanding in that department.

I based the numbers off of base MSRP, but you're right, using those numbers won't allow for them being similarly equipped. Regardless, both those models are beyond what I wanted to spend. And I won't buy a CUV, they don't appeal to me.

I don't disagree with your take on AWD.. but there is a whole lot more to a car than that... and that one distinction doesn't make up for an unattractive car, aesthetically, or other-feature-wise.

Again, I like the car and in the end it doesn't much matter if anyone else doesn't.

 

 

I guess I was a moron to buy a 2 year old Legacy GT from a forum member here, then. and I spend ~$20K, not 30.

To each their own. I didn't want to buy used. I couldn't have anyway- there aren't any used 2010 LGT's out there yet/

But your argument about Subaru's price point is one I also use, but I lament the fact that 30K buys you less of a car that takes up more space than it did. It should be a better value, and at least as good looking, even if it is a bit bigger. Value for dollar due to feature set, and aesthetics both have declined.

 

 

 

Have you looked at it compared to the car it replaces? Other than that... if you can use the word subjective, then so can I. Your opinion of bulky is subjective. Mine includes the '10 LEgacy, Camry, and Accord. They have all grown significantly over their previous generations... what on earth did we do before, with such dinky little matchbox cars?

I couldn't tell you. I'm 25 and sorta grew up along with these sedans. Back when I was little, the tiny back seat was fine, because I was <4' tall.

 

 

You had better civilize your tongue. I have been one of the most outspoken critics of the new model, and I do prefer the old one.

And the fact that you and others feel the need to repeat that you don't like them is silly. I don't like seafood, so does this mean that every time someone posts a seafood dish in the food section I should bash seafood?

You are not bringing up news that most Legacy owners aren't forum members or enthusiasts. But that doesn't mean that mainstreaming the Legacy automatically makes enthusiasts who liked the previous format just lie down for the new model automatically.

 

Again I am going to try to make this plain:

IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR A LEGACY GT TO COST ~45% MORE THAN IT DOES NOW JUST TO BE ON PAR OR A REASONABLE IMPROVEMENT OVER WHAT IT WAS LAST YEAR. It is not currently on par, nor an improvement in several criteria.

I'd agree with this, but again I don't see the loss of certain elements as a big deal.

You jumped 20 thousand dollars, and then complained that G37x and Audi A4 are too expensive, compared, even at your exaggerated margin of $8k difference, when it is probably closer to a 3-4K difference between a well optioned LGT and the entry price for an A4 or G37x.

I don't know what you mean by I jumped $20k, and you're right I messed up on getting accurate pricing but regardless, both models are more than I wanted to spend. A LGT Limited was more than I wanted to spend. I prefer cloth over leather anyhow (at least comparing seats in the Legacy, I'm sure the Audi has awesome seats, they usually do).

And even a 1-2 year old version of those two cars are hardly likely to be hammered on by teenagers. As you say, they aren't inexpensive to begin with.

I wanted to buy a new car. End of story.

 

Even the automotive press is comparing Legacy to Camry and Accord, not to A4 or TSX.

Let them. I certainly wouldn't compare the Subaru to luxury models.

The Legacy has redacted it's sport sedan status, and has resumed a track closer to the 2000-2004 Legacy, than 2005-2009. The 2010 GT is a vestige of it's former self, in terms of option list, and inventory levels. It is probably looking at the end of the line soon, if some of the signs are to be taken seriously, like it's lack of appeal without an automatic version.

I got mine, I could care less if the model is axed for 2011

[Guest heightsgtltd]

oh Jesus, the wall of text again?

[SpecBee]

Everyone of you will change your tune when the 2012 Legacy STI with 350hp comes rolling off the flat bed at your nearest dealer.