Stinky Clutch Solution!!! *READ*

[Driver72]

Subietonic,

 

Thanks for the updates.

But as someone else said, did you get your complete clutch assembly replaced

because of the "bolts to turbo and clutch slave mountings seized"??

 

Outback XT seems to have the same issue as you did, but the rest of us don't.

We seem to just have the stink but no "stranded in intersection...car won't go"

problem. I don't think we'll get our complete clutch assembly replaced just because

of the stink.

 

Glad things are going well. Have you done an aggressive launch yet to see if

the stink returns???

Pretend you NEED to get across an intersection REALLY fast because you

are about to get rear ended by car whose lost his brakes and leave pretty

hard with a moderate clutch slip and see if there's stink then too.

 

I think we've all logged plenty of complaints with SOA to justify there's a clutch

problem too.

This is getting annoying. I hate to say it, but I had A LOT less issues with my VW GTI 1.8T than I have with this Subaru. I'd take faulty window regulators anyday over

stuttering acceleration, stinking clutch, bumpy seat (got replaced twice), creaking/popping coming from suspension/bushings/whatever when going over bumps/inclines at slow speed and steering wheel turned. This is all causing me too much "problems" for a car with 3,300 miles on it which has been babied

with the exception of a couple runs with a couple Audi S4's that my buddy and his buddy own!!

[SBT]

Don't believe they replaced the master or the slave cylinder. Just the clutch internals, i.e., Pressure plate, disk, TOB, flywheel.

 

I'll try a moderate to hard launch this evening on the way home from work. If this past weekend was any indication (a lot of stop and go steep uphill driving), then there should be no problems on a get out of the way launch.

 

SBT

[Guest turboman]

Subietonic,

 

Thanks for the updates.

But as someone else said, did you get your complete clutch assembly replaced

because of the "bolts to turbo and clutch slave mountings seized"??

 

Outback XT seems to have the same issue as you did, but the rest of us don't.

We seem to just have the stink but no "stranded in intersection...car won't go"

problem. I don't think we'll get our complete clutch assembly replaced just because

of the stink.

 

Glad things are going well. Have you done an aggressive launch yet to see if

the stink returns???

Pretend you NEED to get across an intersection REALLY fast because you

are about to get rear ended by car whose lost his brakes and leave pretty

hard with a moderate clutch slip and see if there's stink then too.

 

I think we've all logged plenty of complaints with SOA to justify there's a clutch

problem too.

This is getting annoying. I hate to say it, but I had A LOT less issues with my VW GTI 1.8T than I have with this Subaru. I'd take faulty window regulators anyday over

stuttering acceleration, stinking clutch, bumpy seat (got replaced twice), creaking/popping coming from suspension/bushings/whatever when going over bumps/inclines at slow speed and steering wheel turned. This is all causing me too much "problems" for a car with 3,300 miles on it which has been babied

with the exception of a couple runs with a couple Audi S4's that my buddy and his buddy own!!

 

Seized bolts wouldn't be a cause to change a clutch. They would have no effect on clutch function. They would only be noticed during the teardown, after it was determined to change the clutch. Bolts probably just had Locktite applied (like the oil filters installed at the factory:confused:.)

 

Others (drag racers unable to get a good launch) have complained about the CDV, wherever they have hidden the darn thing . If a clutch replacement solves the problem maybe the CDV isn't the cause (at least of the stinky part of our driveability problems.

[Driver72]

Subietonic,

 

Sorry one other thing....how long was your car at the dealer to do this complete

clutch change?

 

If my dealer gives me any crap about it, I may just drive the 120 miles south

to San Diego and drop my car off to the dealer that did yours.

[Guest turboman]

Subietonic,

 

Sorry one other thing....how long was your car at the dealer to do this complete

clutch change?

 

If my dealer gives me any crap about it, I may just drive the 120 miles south

to San Diego and drop my car off to the dealer that did yours.

 

Clutch change is about 4 hours for a good man with the proper tools. How long your car has to be there depends when the service writer determines he has a lift open and an experienced mechanic available for 4 hours. This is the part that makes the dealer say, "You'll have to leave your car all day...". Could be the job can't be assigned until after lunch.

[SBT]

D72 & TM

 

Since the master tech did this one himself, I booked the change out a week in advance. I also had him check out the engine stutter (which he found and noted) and generally drive the car enough to note the shifter/transmission grinds on 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, (up/down). The dealership also did an alignment check but the alignment guy couldn't get to the car until Tuesday so that's what the extra day was all about.

 

There were no time amounts noted on the invoice but the clutch work was done on the first day.

 

I dropped the car off on Monday morning and picked it up on Tuesday afternoon. Rental agency picked me up at the dealership and then dropped me back off the next afternoon after I checked my warranty rental in with them.

 

HTH

 

SBT

[MrCoffee]

I'm going in for (what i believe to be) a wheel bearing going bad and i'm having them look at the clutch (half engagement, 4 times!!) issue too. They service writer said they could look at it, but i might end up paying for them do to so. I mentioned the safety implications of a faulty clutch and he said that I might still have to pay for them to take things apart and look at them.

 

I'm just afraid they are going to tear things apart and tell me nothing is wrong (when it clearly is) and I end up paying some huge fee. What did you tell them to get them to do it for free?

[D-2.5-GT]

I'm going in for (what i believe to be) a wheel bearing going bad and i'm having them look at the clutch (half engagement, 4 times!!) issue too. They service writer said they could look at it, but i might end up paying for them do to so. I mentioned the safety implications of a faulty clutch and he said that I might still have to pay for them to take things apart and look at them.

 

I'm just afraid they are going to tear things apart and tell me nothing is wrong (when it clearly is) and I end up paying some huge fee. What did you tell them to get them to do it for free?

 

Well first problem is talking with this "service writer"...number one rule of not taking any $hit, is go right to the top. Don't really waste your time with these low level workers, if need be keep at it untill you find someone who will listen, such as the dealer owner or someone high up. Be nice and fair, don't expect everything to go your way, you may have to compromise, but your chances will certainly be better.

 

It should be covered free reguardless, as long as its under warrenty. However, it needs to be somewhat reproducable...meaning that if they have to pull a tranny or something, they aren't going to be eager or want to do it if there is not imediate problem with drivability. Basically need to be able to show them something is wrong other than just in words. If it is, its a no brainer, thats what the warrenty is for. All assuming no mods were related to this issue.

[Guest turboman]

D72 & TM

 

Since the master tech did this one himself, I booked the change out a week in advance. I also had him check out the engine stutter (which he found and noted) and generally drive the car enough to note the shifter/transmission grinds on 1-2, 2-3, 3-4, (up/down). The dealership also did an alignment check but the alignment guy couldn't get to the car until Tuesday so that's what the extra day was all about.

 

There were no time amounts noted on the invoice but the clutch work was done on the first day.

 

I dropped the car off on Monday morning and picked it up on Tuesday afternoon. Rental agency picked me up at the dealership and then dropped me back off the next afternoon after I checked my warranty rental in with them.

 

HTH

 

SBT

 

Seems that you really had a defective clutch if there was that much grinding. Something internal was not releasing or hanging up. Now I understand why your clutch was changed. It puts a whole new perspective on the problem.

 

For those of us that just "stink", but the clutch functions normally, (no grinding when shifting) we might have an uphill battle to get a new clutch. Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings. But, keep on swinging.

 

There's still hope. No clutch should stink like ours do. There's an "Implied Warranty" (often unwritten) on all manufactured goods that says they have to serve the purpose a reasonable person would expect them to. That's our best argument, I believe.

[Joe05GTMT]

Best way to replicate the stench at the dealership without making it appear you drive the car hard is to do the following:

 

1. Have service manager sit in passenger seat

 

2. Pull outside air (no recirculation) at full blast on the dash vents (directed to face of service manager)

 

3. Pull the hand-break on

 

4. Push clutch pedal to floor

 

5. Put the car in 5th gear

 

6. Rev engine to 2k and hold it there

 

7. Start letting out clutch while maintaining 2k

 

8. Hold clutch pedal at the 'biting' point (while at only 2k revs) for about 4 to 5 seconds

 

9. Push clutch all the way in

 

10. Stop engine

 

11. Look at service manager coughing at the stench and say "see what I mean"

 

 

The main purpose of this, is that the test is repeatable (for us with the stench issue) and you can do it in the parking lot without moving the car AND do it without revving the engine -- i.e. only putting a little bit of power into slipping the clutch will cause the stench. You can do the same test of any other car and you won't smell anything!!

 

 

Joe

[D-2.5-GT]

 

5. Put the car in 5th gear

 

6. Rev engine to 2k and hold it there

 

7. Start letting out clutch while maintaining 2k

 

8. Hold clutch pedal at the 'biting' point (while at only 2k revs) for about 4 to 5 seconds

 

 

I seriously hope you are joking....

[PGT]

Here's how that goes down:

 

Patient - "Doc, my arm hurts when I put it behind my back like this"

Doc - "Don't do that and it won't hurt"

Patient - "Okay! Thanks Doc!"

Doc - (thinks to himself) "F'in IDIOT"

 

 

Moral of the story - replicate the problem in a way that shows normal, competent operation of the car and you are likely to get more sympathy/help from the dealer.

[D-2.5-GT]

Exactly....

 

Trying to "replicate" the problem that way is not the clutch stink, but rather burning the clutch.

[Joe05GTMT]

Ok -- I guess I was being a bit stupid

 

Good thing I posted before trying this at the dealership.

[Outback XT]

How do I replicate this when it happens in a snow storm, on a muddy road or in stop and go traffic? The day I took my car to the dealer it was wonderful weather and of course they couldn't reproduce what I experienced - go figure. I just hope that my clutch blows before the power train warranty is up. I'm sure I will be lost in paper work and transfered to several different people before anything is done about the problem - unless of course there is a catastrophic falure. Houston we have a problem! And it is not a malfuntioning toilet that is causing this smell. Can you fix it before I burn up on my next launch.

[SBT]

My typewritten letter to the service writer and the master tech, included all of the things I mentioned previously (in this or the other posts), and was the basis for their diagnostic tests. They included in my ranked order of precedence and indicated that I considered them all warranty issues that I expected them to resolve or that I would be opening individual cases on each unresolved issue with SOA.

 

1) Clutch STINKS on take off from uphill stop sign, backing up an incline where clutch slip is not only expected but necessary or even slight slip engagement while cornering around an immovable object (wall, other car, dumpster, etc.) (Primary concern Number 1) Easily replacatable

 

Resolution Clutch system replaced under warranty

 

2) Clutch slips (half engages) at will from low rpm takeoff and won't allow the car to move. (Safety issue, Primary concern Number 2) Somewhat replicatable

 

Resolution Clutch system replaced under warranty

 

3) Engine stutters under light to moderate load in 2, 3, 4, and 5th gears and accelerating. (Primary concern Number 3) Completely replicatable

 

Resolution Noted on work order as an issue that Subaru Tech Line needs to resolve

 

4) Car wags while driving down the road and steering wheel is off-center to the left. Out of alignment (Primary Concern number 4) Self-demonstrating

 

Resolution Steering Wheel recentered. Wagging not resolved. Some BS about tire pressures being too high at 35/33 (reset to 30/30 - could have clocked the tech for this one)

 

5) Difficult to upshift/downshift between 1-2 and 2-3 and transmission grinds going into those gears. (Primary Concern number 5) Self-demonstrating

 

Resolution clutch system replaced under warranty. Input shaft greased. Transmission refilled with new fluit. Shifts are now like butter

 

SBT

[Guest turboman]

Does anybody know the cost for a clutch change at a Subaru dealership, if I chose to pay for it myself? If OEM parts were used I would presume they would still be warranteed by the company to 36,000 miles.

 

Would a STi clutch fit? (It should, it uses the original bellhousing) Is it a stonger unit? The parts costs shouldn't be that much different.

 

If (when) there is a recall I would think the dealership would be obligated to reimburse my costs? I wonder if they would be agreeable to writing this on the work order?

[SBT]

Subaru parts that you buy and install yourself are warranted for 12 month/12,000 miles whichever comes first. STI clutch is a "pull" type (TOB pulls the clutch pressure plate), our LGT clutch is a "push" type (TOB pushes against the pressure plate).

 

According to the tech that worked on my car, he was pretty impressed with how beefy the clutch system is on the LGT and specifically commented on this in my post-repair conversation with him.

 

If you do replace the clutch yourself, keep every record, including an assessment by the tech who does the replacement.

 

SBT

[rony]

Well, since I have joined these forum and owned my MT LGT, I have yet to understand this clutch stink. I have yet to experience this stench everyone is talking about, till today. I was backing into a spot in my parking garage at work at and I sliped the clutch a little bit more than I usually do, and BAH. WTF is that smell, and no, I didn't fart. Smelled like burning ceramic capacitors, well at least that's the closes thing I can think of. But geez, it was strong. I have yet to have this smell when I'm launching the car, so I hadn't experienced it. The only smell I have experience is the some cat smell during heavy acceleration.

 

So, if you are getting this smell when you drive "normally", I feel for you. It's one nasty smell, more than what I would consider a normal car smell.

[SBT]

That smell is what most of us have experienced. It's very much a burnt ceramic capacitator smell, leading me to believe that our clutch disks are ceramic impregnated units. Pretty good idea, but pretty nauseating when experienced in the extreme as I did (2 days of stink) after the clutch partial engagement.

 

SBT

[Guest turboman]

I just got an email in response to my inquiry to SOA about having the clutch replaced at my expense, if I chose to do so. She said if I used OEM parts and the work was done at a Subaru dealership it would be warranteed the same as the rest of the drivetrain (36,000 mi.).

 

Plus, if there was a future recall to replace stinky clutches I would be reimbursed the total cost. I don't have any info yet on how much it would cost. When I get that info I will add it to this post.

 

Probably $700-800, until I get more accurate numbers.

[Joe05GTMT]

turboman: This is sort of good news. I'd be happy (almost) to pay $700 to $800 for the smell to go away. However; since we know the smell is caused by the type of material used in the OEM clutch, how can we be sure an OEM replacement will solve the issue. I know it may have been a bad batch of clutches, so there is a chance of getting a replacement from a 'good' batch, but there is no way to be sure.

 

If there was some admission from SOA that the material was changed after about Nov 2004 then it would be great!!! I think I've read all the posts regarding this??? Was there some information regarding a material change???

 

Joe

[Guest turboman]

All I have to go on is what Subietonic said about his dealer clutch change. It resolved all the problems. I guess it would be a gamble that they quietly changed specs and vendors for the clutch discs, without publicizing it. If they were trying to avoid a recall that's how they would do it. Quietly.. Probably even the same part numbers.

 

I'd like to see a fix for the CDV (clutch delay valve) at the same time the clutch was done. Perhaps in a few weeks we'll see a posting on how to fix everything at once.

 

Too many drivers seem to be changing their driving habits to avoid the stink. Which I even find myself doing. I've had little old ladies driving a minvan leave me in a cloud of dust. Great feeling.

[Guest turboman]

Joe05GTMT: Forgot to address your question about clutch material change after Nov. '04. I've seen stinkers that were built Jan./Feb. '05, so that theory may not hold water. But then again many of those "late buildees" aren't on the road yet.

 

Many cars are inventoried for 5-6 months, depending on production forecasting and actual market sales. Not very much "press" in the car magazines. Even the Company was reportedly surprised when it was named "Car of the Year" in Japan.

 

Be hard to find out if there was a vendor change. Fuji is a giant company and likely all of their suppliers are wholly owned subsidiaries.

[SBT]

As I mentioned, I had a long (at least 45 min - hour) conversation about a number of Subaru issues with the tech post-repair. He said that there is nothing in the Tech Line system about clutch stink or the partial engagement issues.

 

He did say that Subaru does replace failing or less than perfect parts on production run cars, as a matter of course, so Turboman's assessment is probably accurate.

 

Perhaps that's what SOA is doing. The data I'm gathering post-repair indicates that the surgery was successful and should result in a positive prognosis for the long term.

 

WRT the CDV, PatagoniaGT has posted up some pics and, IIRC, how to's to remove/repair the CDV issue for those inclined to try it. I'll look around for the post

 

SBT