2.5i - dangerously slow?

[KurtP]

I hate to add to the continuous bashing I see on these forums about the 2.5i, but I'm starting to believe this car is seriously underpowered to the point of being dangerous.

 

To begin - I take a freeway onramp every day, it's not the most well designed onramp. A sharp right turn (10-15mph) and then merge with 50-60mph traffic in about 50ft of run-up.(these are cars that are also merging on the freeway, it's sort of a double-onramp) - freeway is about 150-200ft from where I turn, and traffic is 70-75mph.

 

So this is what I do everyday: turn the corner at 10mph, stomp the gas to the floor and wait... wait... wait... almost get rear-ended by oncoming cars, then a couple seconds later my car moves... only to run out of 1st gear and plop into 2nd, and more waiting.

 

I will admit 2nd-3rd gear will get me to freeway speeds reasonably, but the 10-50mph acceleration in 1st-2nd is inadequate, and I am almost certain that I will one day get rear-ended because of it (and yes, I do make sure there is "enough" of a gap before merging - unfortunately in this situation the gaps aren't going to get any bigger than they already are)

 

I did not get a chance to fully test this car on the freeway before I bought it, had I known about this problem I wouldn't have bought it. Car in question here is a 2009 2.5i with 4 speed auto. (I would have gotten the manual but they were unavailable)

 

I'm not sure if everyone here experiences the same thing, but I rarely am able to drive without giving it 100% gas. Anytime I'm merging into traffic, turning out of a side street, or passing on the freeway, there's no need to modulate the accelerator - just mash it to the floor and wait for nothing to happen.

 

I hope this helps anyone who is researching into the 2.5i - don't make the same mistake I did. If it's 2.5i mated to the 4 speed auto, don't even consider it. I have not driven the stick shift version before, but I would assume it is somewhat better.

 

I find this post hysterical. The 2.5i isnt fast, but "dangerously slow" is a joke. Are you looking to try and pave the way for some sort of class-action lawsuit for a GT here?

 

There are people, in much higher frequency than 2.5 legacies, that drive every day too and from work in honda civic's, 4cyl accords, 4 cyl minivans, scions, prius/civic hybrids, etc.(most with auto trannies) that dont get into life-ending collisions where I live in a major metropolitan area. My wife drives a 2.5i impreza wagon, and my mom drives a 2.5i outback with an automatic transmission. They both drive just fine.

 

Giving the allowable exception that there is an undiagnosed problem with your vehicle causing significant power loss, this post is ridiculous.....all imo, of course.... just sounds like you have a lead foot and should have got the G8 instead of a legacy, maybe

[JohnC]

Wow, totally forgot about this, didn't expect so many of you to reply

 

My car has felt odd from day one, but I can't tell if there is a mechanical problem with it. Here's what I have so far:

1) Car idles loud from a cold start, not something I complain about (I'm sitting in the car when I start it in the morning so I can't hear it), but I have been told this by my neighbors, they tell me it sounds like a diesel truck.

2) Hesitation in idle on cold start (I can actually feel this, the car stumbles for a bit and then resumes proper idle)

3) Transmission has slight jerks when shifting cold in the morning (driving down the street normally, giving it very little gas because engine is still not warmed up)

4) When in 'Sport' mode the transmission occasionally jerks when upshifting at high rpms.

 

I don't think these are normal, based on my past experiences (I have owned cars from Toyota, Mazda, Mercedes and Volvo in the past, and none have ever exhibited any of these symptoms)

 

Keep in mind this car only has 3000 miles on it.

 

I have brought up these issues with my dealership - got the standard response: "that's what it's supposed to do/sound like, it's what Subarus do" - so there's not really much recourse there for me, if they're not even interested in looking at it.

Not that I really care either, the car is leased and if it does fall apart within 3 years it'll be their problem, not mine.

 

 

I've thought a little bit about this lag I'm experiencing - and I have theorized that this is mostly caused by both the MPT system and AVLS, both of which are associated with the poor design of the 4EAT transmission.

 

First, back to square one - this maneuver in question is a sharp 80 degree right turn, followed by a short burst up to speed. The turn cannot be taken any faster, it goes from approx 45mph to 15mph then accelerate to 70mph.

 

So here's my theory: As braking happens, the AWD switches to 90/10 mode and the transmission is in 3rd/4th gear, then upon acceleration, it has to kick down to 2nd and AWD switches to 50/50 mode.

In normal "D" mode, there is obviously a lag in downshifting. I have tried using the manual mode, there is no longer a lag in downshifting (simply because I can shift into 2nd before entering the turn, however it will not allow me to shift into 1st at that speed) - this improves the pick-up somewhat, but there is still considerable lag.

 

So what's left is that this lag could be a result of the MPT clutch - I have yet to find conclusive evidence of this, but I am under the impression that as the clutch plates engage (directing torque to the rear wheels), the more that is directed up to the 50/50 limit, the more drivetrain loss there would be. It would be interesting to see what the difference in wheel HP is on a dyno with AWD engaged and in FWD only mode.

When accelerating from a rolling start, this is what may be happening - it takes time for the MPT to send power to the rear wheels, and once all 4 wheels are driven equally, it may rob power significantly. Hopefully someone with access to a dyno would be able to prove or disprove this - I certainly would be interested in seeing the result.

 

Another flaw of the 4EAT transmission is the slow shift speed. I have researched a bit into the AVLS system in our engines, and it appears that the high lift cam is only activated in the upper RPM range. I do not know exactly where the changeover point is, however when manually shifting the transmission from 2nd-3rd gear, I have noticed that RPMs drop from 5500rpm to 3000rpm.

I strongly doubt that the high lift cam would still be activated at 3000rpms - therefore as the transmission shifts, the AVLS also has to constantly alter the cam profile with each shift (as it is mechanically controlled by the engine speed).

 

Manual transmissions would be exempt from this occurance, as you will be able to shift quicker and thus keep the high lift cam engaged in between shifts. I think this by itself could make up a significant part of the 0-60mph difference between the 5MT and 4EAT transmissions (I have read somewhere it is ~8sec vs. ~10sec)

 

In any case, it's getting late and I'm rambling - but I'm sure most of you would agree that the 2.5i/4EAT combo just plain sucks.

I do have to give credit where it's due however, and I will admit that when taking off in a straight line from a stoplight (acceleration from zero) it is quite responsive, up until 3rd gear when it runs out of steam.

[Pawlwawl06]

I agree with the last part, once I'm out of second gear on a WOT run, it feels like the car just wants to give up. Thats where an AVO turbocharger would be handy I do love city driving though because I'll stay in 1st and 2nd gear most of the time, and our engines have a nice bit of torque down low. It makes for a very fun drive!

[apexi]

1) Car idles loud from a cold start, not something I complain about (I'm sitting in the car when I start it in the morning so I can't hear it), but I have been told this by my neighbors, they tell me it sounds like a diesel truck.

 

I can't comment on 2-4 since i have a 5mt, but #1 is just the PZEV system. The car idles loud from a cold start because its trying to heat up your catalytic converter faster, because they're more efficient when hot. I dont mind this at all actually, since it seems like my subaru warms up quickly and I have heat faster than any other vehicle i've owned.

[CTlegacy06]

You say you are shifting into 2nd before the 15mph turn? I think that's too "soon" if you're expecting to accelerate as fast as you can. You could stay in 1st then shift around 5k-6k rpm to avoid hitting the limiter.

 

And cold temperate affects EVERY car... boxer engines are a tad louder I believe (probably since they are lower in the engine bay thus their sound is transmitted from the bottom of the bay to the outside compared to a regular i4).

[katalyst]

^ he stated in the post that he is unable to downshift into 1st gear when approaching the turn since he is decelerating from 45mph

 

JohnC i think most of your observations are correct

 

i would also say another contributing factor is the drive by wire which causes a lag in the throttle response. the 4EAT isn't great for performance but i think it's ok for a daily driver

[pansontw]

Try our electronic throttle controller which enables you to reach traffic speed in shorter time while merging into traffic.

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123318

If you are not satisfied w/ the result, we can get you full refund!!!

[GTS Jeff]

If its really slow then so are over 75% of the cars on the highway. Example

 

08 Accord Sedan 177hp 162tq -3289lbs hp per lb:18.5

 

08 Camry Sedan 169hp 167tq -3263lbs hp per lb:19.3

 

08 Altima Sedan 175hp 190tq -3334 hp per lb:19.05

 

08 Legacy Sedan 170hp 170tq -3275 hp per lb:19.26

 

08 Expedition SUV 310hp 350tq -5928 hp per lb: 19.12

 

08 Focus Sedan 140hp 140tq -2642lbs hp per lb: 18.87

 

08 BMW 328i 230hp 200tq -3424 hp per lb:14.88

 

08 Legacy GT Sedan 250hp 250tq 3340 hp per lb:13.36

 

08 S40 Sedan 2.4i 169hp 170tq 3220lbs hp per lb:19.01

 

08 Dodge Charger 178hp 190tq 4160lbs hp per lb: 23.37

 

08 Malibu Sedan 169 160tq 3403lbs hp per lb: 20.13

 

05 Bmw 325i Sedan 184hp 175tq 3362lbs hp per lb: 18.27

 

02 Jagaur S type 240hp 221tq 3723lbs hp per lb:15.25

 

06 Aveo sedan 108hp 105tq 2300lbs hp per lb:21.26

 

02 Expedition 232hp 291tq 5827lbs hp per lb:25.11

 

02 Chevy Suburban 285hp 325tq 5607lbs hp per lb:19.67

 

All these are pretty common cars some faster, some slower, some about the same and I dont see any one having issues with camry or accord because its to slow. If these cars where unsafely slow then why are there A. Slower cars and B why is the 2 best selling cars in the US have about the same power and may even be slower? Your in an AWD Legacy that handles well stock,go faster on the corner, thats one thing a camry and accord cant do.

 

Your math really sucks.

[RabidWombat]

Wow, totally forgot about this, didn't expect so many of you to reply

 

First, back to square one - this maneuver in question is a sharp 80 degree right turn, followed by a short burst up to speed. The turn cannot be taken any faster, it goes from approx 45mph to 15mph then accelerate to 70mph.

 

So here's my theory: As braking happens, the AWD switches to 90/10 mode and the transmission is in 3rd/4th gear, then upon acceleration, it has to kick down to 2nd and AWD switches to 50/50 mode.

In normal "D" mode, there is obviously a lag in downshifting. I have tried using the manual mode, there is no longer a lag in downshifting (simply because I can shift into 2nd before entering the turn, however it will not allow me to shift into 1st at that speed) - this improves the pick-up somewhat, but there is still considerable lag.

 

So what's left is that this lag could be a result of the MPT clutch - I have yet to find conclusive evidence of this, but I am under the impression that as the clutch plates engage (directing torque to the rear wheels), the more that is directed up to the 50/50 limit, the more drivetrain loss there would be. It would be interesting to see what the difference in wheel HP is on a dyno with AWD engaged and in FWD only mode.

When accelerating from a rolling start, this is what may be happening - it takes time for the MPT to send power to the rear wheels, and once all 4 wheels are driven equally, it may rob power significantly. Hopefully someone with access to a dyno would be able to prove or disprove this - I certainly would be interested in seeing the result.

 

Another flaw of the 4EAT transmission is the slow shift speed. I have researched a bit into the AVLS system in our engines, and it appears that the high lift cam is only activated in the upper RPM range. I do not know exactly where the changeover point is, however when manually shifting the transmission from 2nd-3rd gear, I have noticed that RPMs drop from 5500rpm to 3000rpm.

I strongly doubt that the high lift cam would still be activated at 3000rpms - therefore as the transmission shifts, the AVLS also has to constantly alter the cam profile with each shift (as it is mechanically controlled by the engine speed).

 

Manual transmissions would be exempt from this occurance, as you will be able to shift quicker and thus keep the high lift cam engaged in between shifts. I think this by itself could make up a significant part of the 0-60mph difference between the 5MT and 4EAT transmissions (I have read somewhere it is ~8sec vs. ~10sec)

 

In any case, it's getting late and I'm rambling - but I'm sure most of you would agree that the 2.5i/4EAT combo just plain sucks.

I do have to give credit where it's due however, and I will admit that when taking off in a straight line from a stoplight (acceleration from zero) it is quite responsive, up until 3rd gear when it runs out of steam.

 

I have an 09 LGT and my wife drives an 08 Impreza with the infamous 4EAT.

First, the 4EAT is definitely obsolete.

In order to get decent gas mileage 3rd & 4th are definitely on the tall side.

In 1st & 2nd the car has plenty of pick-up.

 

There are several similar on-ramps around where I live.

As soon as I approach an on-ramp looking bad, I switch to sport mode and drop into 2nd entering the corner.

This allows you to get on the throttle immediately, and greatly reduces the hesitation. Once you're in 2nd, you can basically ride it to about 65, at which point you're good.

[Onthewagon]

Careful, Wombat -- the manual says you should never exceed 65 in 2nd gear!

[henryq89]

i have a 09' 2.5i with a 5MT and never had any problems with the acceleration hoping onto a crazy highway

[clark687]

Dangerously slow= My Old 97 jeep wrangler auto with 4banger,4inch lift, 36inch tires. TOP SPEED ON HIGHWAY 45MPH. THAT IS SLOW 0-60 NEVER

[N.sane]

^lol!

[NewLegacyOwner]

If I just accelerate normally instead of slamming down on the gas, there's no issue whatsoever. If I mash the gas, there is sometimes a slight delay on acceleration. I don't feel like my Legacy gets to speed any slower than my V6 Grand Am GT did...of course I don't feel the urge to pretend i'm Vin Diesel or Jeff Gordon either.

[LongHiway]

There is definitely a (non-trubo) lag when mashing on the gas. Setting the auto trans to "Sport" mode still has the response lag, although the shift points are much higher than in normal mode.

 

Try shifting manually using the sportmatic or whatever Subaru calls the completely manual option. I find this helps getting onto a hiway - as I do every night when leaving work.

[theGeneral]

If its really slow then so are over 75% of the cars on the highway. Example

 

08 Accord Sedan 177hp 162tq -3289lbs hp per lb:18.5

 

08 Camry Sedan 169hp 167tq -3263lbs hp per lb:19.3

 

08 Altima Sedan 175hp 190tq -3334 hp per lb:19.05

 

08 Legacy Sedan 170hp 170tq -3275 hp per lb:19.26

 

08 Expedition SUV 310hp 350tq -5928 hp per lb: 19.12

 

08 Focus Sedan 140hp 140tq -2642lbs hp per lb: 18.87

 

08 BMW 328i 230hp 200tq -3424 hp per lb:14.88

 

08 Legacy GT Sedan 250hp 250tq 3340 hp per lb:13.36

 

08 S40 Sedan 2.4i 169hp 170tq 3220lbs hp per lb:19.01

 

08 Dodge Charger 178hp 190tq 4160lbs hp per lb: 23.37

 

08 Malibu Sedan 169 160tq 3403lbs hp per lb: 20.13

 

05 Bmw 325i Sedan 184hp 175tq 3362lbs hp per lb: 18.27

 

02 Jagaur S type 240hp 221tq 3723lbs hp per lb:15.25

 

06 Aveo sedan 108hp 105tq 2300lbs hp per lb:21.26

 

02 Expedition 232hp 291tq 5827lbs hp per lb:25.11

 

02 Chevy Suburban 285hp 325tq 5607lbs hp per lb:19.67

 

All these are pretty common cars some faster, some slower, some about the same and I dont see any one having issues with camry or accord because its to slow. If these cars where unsafely slow then why are there A. Slower cars and B why is the 2 best selling cars in the US have about the same power and may even be slower? Your in an AWD Legacy that handles well stock,go faster on the corner, thats one thing a camry and accord cant do.

 

This post pretty much put the OP in his place. I have a hard time believing he was for real anyway, he sounded like a troll from a Honda site.

[Imrac]

Thats not exactly accurate... that should labeled pounds per horsepower and not horsepower per pound. if you had 19hp per lb, that would be 62225 horsepower...

the list should actually be:

 

 

 

1. 08 Legacy GT Sedan 250hp 250tq 3340 hp per lb: 0.0748502994011976
   
2. 08 BMW 328i 230hp 200tq -3424 hp per lb: 0.0671728971962617
   
3. 02 Jagaur S type 240hp 221tq 3723lbs hp per lb: 0.064464141821112
   
4. 05 Bmw 325i Sedan 184hp 175tq 3362lbs hp per lb: 0.0547293277810827
   
5. 08 Accord Sedan 177hp 162tq -3289lbs hp per lb: 0.0538157494679234
   
6. 08 Focus Sedan 140hp 140tq -2642lbs hp per lb: 0.0529901589704769
   
7. 08 Altima Sedan 175hp 190tq -3334 hp per lb: 0.0524895020995801
   
8. 08 S40 Sedan 2.4i 169hp 170tq 3220lbs hp per lb: 0.0524844720496894
   
9. 08 Expedition SUV 310hp 350tq -5928 hp per lb: 0.0522941970310391
   
10. 08 Legacy Sedan 170hp 170tq -3275 hp per lb: 0.0519083969465649
    
11. 08 Camry Sedan 169hp 167tq -3263lbs hp per lb: 0.051792828685259
    
12. 02 Chevy Suburban 285hp 325tq 5607lbs hp per lb: 0.0508293204922418
    
13. 08 Malibu Sedan 169hp 160tq 3403lbs hp per lb: 0.0496620628856891
    
14. 06 Aveo sedan 108hp 105tq 2300lbs hp per lb: 0.0469565217391304
    
15. 08 Dodge Charger 178hp 190tq 4160lbs hp per lb: 0.0427884615384615
    
16. 02 Expedition 232hp 291tq 5827lbs hp per lb: 0.0398146559121332
    

[Jeepis]

In college I drove a 2000 Jeep Wrangler with the 4 cylinder and 30 inch M/T's. Compared to that thing, my 2.5i feels adequate.

[JPROnline]

I test drove a '10 Forester with 4EAT and the only thing that dropped it back into pack with the RAV4 and CRV was the transmission (which was much less refined than either of those two cars). Then I drove the 2.5i OB with the CVT and it was all over. Yes, it feels like it hesitates when you stomp on it, but if you just give it some judicious throttle before putting it on the floor then it moves nicely. Then it just sits at 3k to 4k rpm while you watch the speedo role up. Pretty fun.

 

OK. That didn't do anything for the OP, but might be worth the opinion on a new automatic transmission option from Subaru.

[andyarmada]

Whatever our cars lack in power can be made up in cornering, and suspension. I live in the suburbs, and try to Vermont every weekend, the roads are ******* rad to drive on in my car because I can take them going 30+ over the speed limit (even more once I get coilovers).

A friend of mine had a stock LGT, and couldn't keep up with me without getting immense understeer and sliding in the corners. Who cares about straightline speed, taking corners is more fun anyway.

Plus, STis and LGTs scramble once they hit snow, traction is totally gone.

I really love my car.

[cobi]

2.5i is not that bad..my second car is a VW Golf with naturally aspirated 2.0L engine, now that car is underpowered and slow, luckily it's a manual so that helps.

My Legacy, it's not the fastest car but it is not that slow either. And I really do not like when I see people slamming the accelerator pedal behind me just to stop on the next traffic light and then again until next light...

[theGeneral]

This is a troll thread guys plain and simple.

[ViscousSquirrel]

I rented a 2.5i outback in denver...It was dangerously slow. What a dog. It was so horrifically bad I brought it back and rented the 304hp camaro v6...another dog...altitude murders N/A cars...MURDERS them!

[2.5 Stick]

My '09 2.5i 5 Speed manual is not slow, it is actually a very fast car for the lease payment - and when hard pulling out of a turn it spins the rear wheels even with stability control on.

[The B4]

Thats not exactly accurate... that should labeled pounds per horsepower and not horsepower per pound. if you had 19hp per lb, that would be 62225 horsepower...

the list should actually be:

 

 

 

1. 08 Legacy GT Sedan 250hp 250tq 3340 hp per lb: 0.0748502994011976
   
2. 08 BMW 328i 230hp 200tq -3424 hp per lb: 0.0671728971962617
   
3. 02 Jagaur S type 240hp 221tq 3723lbs hp per lb: 0.064464141821112
   
4. 05 Bmw 325i Sedan 184hp 175tq 3362lbs hp per lb: 0.0547293277810827
   
5. 08 Accord Sedan 177hp 162tq -3289lbs hp per lb: 0.0538157494679234
   
6. 08 Focus Sedan 140hp 140tq -2642lbs hp per lb: 0.0529901589704769
   
7. 08 Altima Sedan 175hp 190tq -3334 hp per lb: 0.0524895020995801
   
8. 08 S40 Sedan 2.4i 169hp 170tq 3220lbs hp per lb: 0.0524844720496894
   
9. 08 Expedition SUV 310hp 350tq -5928 hp per lb: 0.0522941970310391
   
10. 08 Legacy Sedan 170hp 170tq -3275 hp per lb: 0.0519083969465649
    
11. 08 Camry Sedan 169hp 167tq -3263lbs hp per lb: 0.051792828685259
    
12. 02 Chevy Suburban 285hp 325tq 5607lbs hp per lb: 0.0508293204922418
    
13. 08 Malibu Sedan 169hp 160tq 3403lbs hp per lb: 0.0496620628856891
    
14. 06 Aveo sedan 108hp 105tq 2300lbs hp per lb: 0.0469565217391304
    
15. 08 Dodge Charger 178hp 190tq 4160lbs hp per lb: 0.0427884615384615
    
16. 02 Expedition 232hp 291tq 5827lbs hp per lb: 0.0398146559121332
    

you are right in that it should be pounds per horsepower, but you should divide weight by power to find out how many pounds each horse has to pull. adidasoutback has the math right but the labeling wrong.