SC GT Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 Thanks for posting the numbers in tabular form. Couple notes though. The Cobb tq number should be 248, not 252 and the most important note would be the fuels used in each case. The AP and Harman Motive tunes were on 91 octane. The PDX tune was on 92 octane and the GRD tune was on 93 octane. Interestingly and pehaps obviously, there seems to be some pretty strong correlation between fuel quality and the power numbers. Another point of clarification. When you say within 10% of Spanky's % gains, I calculate that to be 249hp/280tq, assuming the same baseline numbers, or gains of 18%hp and 23.4%tq. Corrections and octane levels have been edited into my post. Chalk it up to late night number crunching and goofing around with these numbers when I should have been working on my taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadvw Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 This is a cool thread! Can't wait to see it continue! HV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTM 525 Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 For the record I only made a 38HP gain on Spanky's Legacy. I will get involve a later this afternoon as this morning I'm a little busy. Tuan In the original post to this thread he gave 211 hp as a baseline then 254 after tune thats 43hp. Baseline trq was 227 and after tune was 286 thats 59FT lbs. Regardless "only" 38hp is still respectable in my book. Just wondering how you guys come up with different numbers in the gain dept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC GT Posted March 16, 2005 Share Posted March 16, 2005 The octane factor is really interesting. Has anyone dyno'd an AP, Stage 1, with the 93 octane map? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highwaydrifter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 In re-reading my "challenge", I realize what I meant to say and what I actually said were two different things. I meant to say that I'd like to see Tuan get within 10% of Spanky's gains, not just his numbers. E.g., Spanky gained 43 hp (+20%), and 59 ft/lbs (+26%). In my mind, Tuan would be successful if he was able to get at least an 18% hp and +23 ft/lb over a stock baseline. For comparison's sake: GRD ECUTek (93 octane) 211 hp and 227 ft/lb stock baseline --> 254 hp (+20%) and 286 ft/lb (+26%) after Stage 0 ECUTek tune. Cobb AccessPort (91 octane) 196 hp and 219 ft/lb stock baseline --> 224 hp (+14%) and 248 lb/ft (+13%) after AP Stage 1, map v. 1.01. PDX ECUTek (92 octane) 191 hp and 190 ft/lb stock baseline --> 225 hp (+18%) and 228 ft/lb (+20%) after Stage 0 ECUTek tune. Harman Motive ECUTek (91 octane) 203 hp and 222 ft/lb stock baseline --> 230 hp (+13%) and 252 (+14%) after ECUtek'ing an otherwise stock LGT. PDX has come close to 10% of Spanky's percentage gains, so it shouldn't be too hard for Tuan/GRD to do so. (I didn't realize PDX's gains were as good as they are when I typed the "challenge"). Unfortunately, the way it came out was that Tuan should come within 10% of Spanky's numbers, which would just be 229 hp and 257 ft/lb, which on GRD's dyno wouldn't seem too hard to do. What you fail to understand is that with just adjusting dyno settings i could make that same difference on the same car with out touching a damn thing on it. Hell even if you dont touch the dyno you could scew the gains up more then a few % points with the right settings and a bit of tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC GT Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 What you fail to understand is that with just adjusting dyno settings i could make that same difference on the same car with out touching a damn thing on it. Hell even if you dont touch the dyno you could scew the gains up more then a few % points with the right settings and a bit of tuning. Call me naive, but I'm assuming that the tuner will actually try to tune the car, not the dyno. Also, I understand there are differences in dyno, altitude, build of the car, octane, etc. I think we all do. I think we all realize this won't be a perfect comparison. But, regardless, it will be an interesting comparison. Ideally, Tuan can dyno a single Leg GT with the stock map, the Stage 1 (93 oct.) map, and his ECUTek tune. If he wanted to, I'm sure he could do things to rig the results in his favor, and me being all the way in So Cal, I'd never know the difference. But I don't think he'd do that. As to your last comment, isn't that the whole point? To see what kind of numbers Tuan can reproduce with a little bit of tuning? And I'm aware of the license fees for ECUTek tuners. I'm also aware that if Tuan can reproduce Spanky's near-Stage 2 numbers with a Stage 1 tune, he'll have people lining up to get an ECUTek tune from him, and the private classifieds are going to be full of ads for AccessPorts from members in or near Chicago. I didn't intend to call Tuan out or anything, and if that's the way I'm coming off, I apologize to him. He doesn't have to prove anything to me. I'm just amazed at the freakish numbers he put up, and regardless of whether he accepts this "challenge" in one form or another, I'm interested in finding out how much of those numbers is attributable to him, to Spanky's LGT, and to the dyno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuan Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I'm sure I can come close to or better than Spanky's numbers. I'm just hoping that his car isn't some kinda factory fluke, but based on what a stock STi pulls on my dyno I don't believe it to be. I also promise not to manipulate the dyno to read higher. I'm not sure how I would do that but I promise not to . I can also with 100% certainty that my tune will be smoother and more powerful than any off the shelf map. My dyno does read a little higher than some others but I dont' think any higher than a dynojet. Only calibration I use is the SAE correction. You can expect about 10-15hp difference from a Mustang and 20-30 compared to a Dynodynamics. Tuan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuan Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 SC GT, I take no offense to any your post. I know we all want to get to the truth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoxerGT2.5 Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 I got a stage 2 93 AP GT in chicago. + some other goodies. OBAMA......One Big Ass Mistake America! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highwaydrifter Posted March 17, 2005 Share Posted March 17, 2005 Call me naive, but I'm assuming that the tuner will actually try to tune the car, not the dyno. Also, I understand there are differences in dyno, altitude, build of the car, octane, etc. I think we all do. I think we all realize this won't be a perfect comparison. But, regardless, it will be an interesting comparison. Ideally, Tuan can dyno a single Leg GT with the stock map, the Stage 1 (93 oct.) map, and his ECUTek tune. If he wanted to, I'm sure he could do things to rig the results in his favor, and me being all the way in So Cal, I'd never know the difference. But I don't think he'd do that. As to your last comment, isn't that the whole point? To see what kind of numbers Tuan can reproduce with a little bit of tuning? And I'm aware of the license fees for ECUTek tuners. I'm also aware that if Tuan can reproduce Spanky's near-Stage 2 numbers with a Stage 1 tune, he'll have people lining up to get an ECUTek tune from him, and the private classifieds are going to be full of ads for AccessPorts from members in or near Chicago. I didn't intend to call Tuan out or anything, and if that's the way I'm coming off, I apologize to him. He doesn't have to prove anything to me. I'm just amazed at the freakish numbers he put up, and regardless of whether he accepts this "challenge" in one form or another, I'm interested in finding out how much of those numbers is attributable to him, to Spanky's LGT, and to the dyno. The point of the last comment was this. If the dyno was set in such a way (for atmospheric corrections, loading, or what have you) it would scew the results intialy on the stock run. Lets say by 5 percent. So if we ran a 100 whp pass and tack on the correction factor it would give us 105 whp. Now lets say we tuned it and now it is making 200 whp you would think that the amount of correction would stay the same correct? So now we would have 210whp. This isnt the case, if the dyno is equipped with a "weather station" the correction percentage could have changed on you, be it up or down. Think of it as this, if you see a 20% gain in power over stock what portion of that percentage is based on the dynos correction algorithm? Hard to answer. My point is this, dyno numbers mean next to nothing, anyone with half an ounce of wit in regards to dynos could turn a geo metro into a dyno queen with the settings that are aval on most dynos. Just be weary and aware that dynos are complex machines and not simply a strap it on and run it and see what it puts out type of ordeal. Oh and if i had to guess i would guess that the orginal dyno numbers were on a dyno that had some sort of correction factor added to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuan Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 highway, The only correction added was the STANDARD SAE correction. Every modern dyno should/does include a weather station, otherwise you'll see to much of a variation between summer months and winter months. You can see the raw data or uncorrected shows the same difference in gain as the SAE corrected value. I can't imagine any tuner or dyno shop that would want to fudge data. You will lose all credibility with your peers and your customers. Tuan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KTM 525 Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 highway, The only correction added was the STANDARD SAE correction. Every modern dyno should/does include a weather station, otherwise you'll see to much of a variation between summer months and winter months. You can see the raw data or uncorrected shows the same difference in gain as the SAE corrected value. I can't imagine any tuner or dyno shop that would want to fudge data. You will lose all credibility with your peers and your customers. Tuan Yup SAE is SAE This is hijacked from a google search I came up with. Correction Factor A key element to producing comparable dyno charts on a global basis is the Correction Factor, SAE Standard J1349, which applies the following weather station data--atmospheric pressure 29.23, air temperature 77 degrees Fahrenheit and humidity 0 percent--to all tests. These exact figures allow apples-to-apples comparison of runs from different cars, different facilities, etc. So graphs with SAE-corrected power were made to this standard. Now this is not to say it cant be fudged. I had the Camro on the dyno and we used a heatgun and waved it in front of the weather station to see if the theory was true. Yup the HP numbers jumped bigtime but as Tuan states why would someone do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highwaydrifter Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 why do manufactures overstate their hp claims all the time? IT MOVES PRODUCT.. and if you are using a load based dyno you can tweak other settings besides atmospheric ones. cant rem what they were right now but we were dicking around with them at a rather famous tuners shop one day to prove this very point... It was an awd dyno dynamics dyno as well. Sleepy time now.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepin gt Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 can anyone BELIEVE how long of a post this turned into?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepFreeze2 Posted March 18, 2005 Share Posted March 18, 2005 I think this is a great thread! More should be like this. Getting info from owners and the tuner(s) that work on the cars helps clear things up for those of us who are on the verge of making a decision on a modification. Myself included. YA RLY!!! Home of +2500 useless posts!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyLGT Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 Made it out to the track Friday. Drove out to the Evo Vs. Subaru showdown. Made 4 passes total and I am not impressed or happy. I thought the car would go faster. I have 2 complaints that need to be fixed before I take the car back to the track. 1. The Clutch Delay Vlave needs to go. BAD. I could not launch the car any higher than 3800-4000 or the clutch would slip all the way through first or I would have to pedal the throttle to get the clutch to engage all the way. So the best 60 ft. I could pull was the 1.90. I think if I had gotten more passes in I would've figured out a way to launch the car better. I am trying to find a braided clutch line that fits. 2. The rear suspension was squatting so bad that the guys from AMS said it almost looked like the front tires were off the ground. The front tires were also spinning badly. Spring blocks from Murray's (Ghetto, I know, but it works like a MF) in the rear will help with the front end traction problems. Any way here are the time. Worst was a 14.2@98mph with a 2.2 60ft. Best was a 13.4@101.41 with a 1.90 60.ft. 2 other passes both 13.5@101. ALSO!!!! The car does now have an up-pipe and a Perrin Down-Pipe fitted now. But has not been retuned yet. And the Perrin Down-Pipe leaks badly. I got one of the fucked up ones. They are sending a new one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edmundu Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Those are some great times, and trap speeds!!! Kudos to you! That Ecutek tune is certainly showing..... Did you happen to weigh the car! Weather conditions? I share your feelings on the cdv, but you still put in some impressive driving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyLGT Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 Did not weigh the car. But did not remove anything from the car. Had about 1/3rd of a tank of gas. Weather was 64 deg. sunny with a 15mph head wind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunderkind Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 how much did you pay for your ecutek tune? i like to compare with our local ecutek tuners. thanks! looks like ecutek may be the way to go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KA81 Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 An ECUTek custom reflash for a stock car is around 800.00. Not sure why it says Flywheel HP. The only thing the Dyno chart was shown for was to show the difference between the stock map and the retuned map. i believe this is a CUSTOM tune for YOUR car, and not an off-the-shelf type of tune hope that helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HighPsi91 Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 Wow, those are some nice times. I would be thrilled to have mine at that level. Id just be thrilled to have mine not ping and run so inconsistant day to day. Congrats on the times. I was actually surprised mine launched as good as it did . I tried everything from 3500 to 6000 and teh clutch seemed to bite pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarrod Posted April 17, 2005 Share Posted April 17, 2005 yah..i want a car that will run a 13.4 in a 1/4 ...i'd be happy =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuan Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 Next time I'm sure Spanky will be beating those times with the new clutch line and a custom tune for his current setup. Tuan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyLGT Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 i believe this is a CUSTOM tune for YOUR car, and not an off-the-shelf type of tune hope that helped And what is your point? A Custom ECUTek tune for "YOUR" car is around 850.00 including Dyno time. An off the shelf flash would be much less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
axis008 Posted April 18, 2005 Share Posted April 18, 2005 And what is your point? I think he was telling wunderkind by stating that it's not any kind of ECU upgrade that is the same like AccessPort, but that it's a custom tune for only your specific car. -ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.