Stage 2 (cont'd)

[RIPjeep2002]

keep us informed fishbone. interested in hearing the results

[JoeFromPA]

Good luck Fish. Annoying bugger.

[fishbone]

I can see it now ... we hook up the tester and we'll be able to hear one of the pistons whistle like a teapot

We're getting some serious weather. Between now and tomorrow morning we are going to get anywhere between 3 to 7 inches of snow and tomorrow for most of the day will be near white-out conditions with wind chill of -40*F. We're talking frostbite in 10 minutes if you're not protected.

Hopefully it will let up some so I can get this done Friday or Saturday.

 

If the test doesn't come back clean, then I've got some serious thinking to do. One of two things will happen. I'll either cough up the dough and rebuild the motor with some forged internals, or trade/sell the car for an 08-09 spec.B. I'm starting to feel the itch to go back to MT. It's in my blood, I still to this day subconsciously reach for the shifter when I slow down.

I'm sure the motor is just fine though, nothing has really changed in the recent time of ownership. Coolant still magically disappears at the same rate, oil doesn't get burned at a faster rate than before. Then again maybe I picked the car up with a cracked ringland 3 years ago

[RIPjeep2002]

I can see it now ... we hook up the tester and we'll be able to hear one of the pistons whistle like a teapot

We're getting some serious weather. Between now and tomorrow morning we are going to get anywhere between 3 to 7 inches of snow and tomorrow for most of the day will be near white-out conditions with wind chill of -40*F. We're talking frostbite in 10 minutes if you're not protected.

Hopefully it will let up some so I can get this done Friday or Saturday.

 

If the test doesn't come back clean, then I've got some serious thinking to do. One of two things will happen. I'll either cough up the dough and rebuild the motor with some forged internals, or trade/sell the car for an 08-09 spec.B. I'm starting to feel the itch to go back to MT. It's in my blood, I still to this day subconsciously reach for the shifter when I slow down.

I'm sure the motor is just fine though, nothing has really changed in the recent time of ownership. Coolant still magically disappears at the same rate, oil doesn't get burned at a faster rate than before. Then again maybe I picked the car up with a cracked ringland 3 years ago

 

Lol. If you picked it up with a cracked ringland, I am pretty sure it would have gotten worse over those 3 years.

[fishbone]

Good news, leakdown test checked out, all 4 within 1 or 2%

[RIPjeep2002]

Well that's good news.

[iNVAR]

hey man, saw you post in another thread and just occurred to me that we haven't had an update on your tuning issues. any luck?

[fishbone]

We haven't touched the car and for some reason it has been running great. IAM never went below 1.0 ever and as far as I can tell barely any knock, if any. It must have been a combination of cold weather and shitty gas. qikslvr and I will get together soon and we'll also install the 15PSI actuator and Perrin MBC which should make tuning the boost easier. As it stands, it fluctuates. It overshoots the target, then goes down, then climbs back up and overshoots it, then down again.

[fishbone]

So Mark and I went out datalogging yesterday on the Cobb OTS ACN STG2 map. Under WOT the car is running relatively clean, we picked up one knock event here and there that we'll need to tune out but nothing major. AFR is right around where it should be. We're still looking over the logs we pulled but for preliminary findings we've got something that is bewildering us at the moment.

 

We are getting some knock events while cruising. We even got one knock event when I was braking and slowing down to a light. I do believe at that point the tranny downshifted.

The knock event is right between 0.94 and 1.2 load, consistently at 1600-1800rpms under light throttle. I was cruising in 5th gear at around 40mph, torque converter locked up and I was modulating the throttle up to 18-22% or so. We'd get knock. The car pulled as much as 4 degrees of timing over 2 knock events because they were close enough that it did not recover the timing between them so it ramped up. The important question is would this be the cause of IAM dropping from 1.0? Under what conditions does the IAM/DAM drop? A LOT of timing pulled, or timing pulled consistently? During our datalogging, it never flinched, it is still at 1.0. Three days ago with just city driving, car never went above 3500rpms and never under big load, I saw it dip down to 0.6 and it recovered back to 1.0 in a day or two. But oftentimes it will drop to 0.87 and stay there for a long while.

I should note that we had no knock when the converter was not locked up and on this tranny, the lowest point it will stay engaged is 1500rpms. As soon as it hits 1400 it disengages.

 

Mechanically-wise, when I went Stage 2 I had everything I do now and Mark and I pulled some logs and the car was running clean on the same map. Well, the regular Stg2, not the ACN.

The only thing that has changed since then was me getting the IPT valve body and, possibly more relevant, the RalliteK transmission mount (20K miles ago). As far as I can tell the car is doing possibly something similar on the PDX tune. It has a hard time maintaining 1.0 IAM even though there is little to no knock under WOT. I am tempted to pull the mount and see if the situation improves but we are still studying the logs because we are not 100% sure if this is noise or genuine knock.

What do you guys think? At least I feel more comfortable driving this thing knowing that it doesn't knock severely or consistently under WOT or higher load.

[fishbone]

To add on to this, I do recall 2 events from this past winter.

I have been doing my damn best to try and catch the car in the middle of ramping down the IAM but so far no luck, if you were to ask me all I could tell you was what I did between the point it was 1.0 and when it dropped.

Well this last winter I looked down and it was 1.0 at a light to pull into a mall's parking log. Light went green, pulled into the mall, stopped at the entrance, idled the car about 30 seconds while talking to the wife and upon leaving, it was 0.87.

This other time I was simply cruising at exactly dead on 40mph/1500rpms and IAM was 0.0. It recovered relatively quickly. I have no actual logs of these events.

[RIPjeep2002]

I don't think a rallitek mount would cause this problem

[Face Visor]

I'm having similar issues regarding low rpm, low load knock. I have a stage 2 tune from PDX, and it consistently pulls timing from 2000 - 2800 rpm under loads of 1.0 - 1.5. WOT runs are clean.

 

I was informed not to worry about these types of knock events, for two reasons: it's most likely false knock, and low load/rpm knock is not damaging. I am not satisfied with this answer, and need to get to the bottom of it. I was supplied with a tune that had a lot of timing pulled in the areas I was getting knock to test if it was true knock or perceived knock. I still recorded knock with that tune, so it certainly appears something mechanical is making the noise.

 

This situation has also impacted by IAM, and recently it went down to 0. I noticed because my boost was suddenly down to 10 psi with pretty slow spool up.

 

If I find the source I'll post what it is, I'll be speaking with my mechanic this week to put together a plan to try and find the source of the knock.

 

FYI - engine mods: AVO panel filter, AVO TMIC, TurboXS catted DP, APv2.

[fishbone]

My mods are modest at best.

Catless Autospeed UP

Gutted stock shorty DP

Last cat remaining in the system

Lightweight crank pulley

Perrin TMIC

Tranny mods (cooler, IPT valve body, tranny mount)

 

The good news is that my car has no problem building boost (and overshooting the target). I must have a stiff spring, Mark thinks I am pushing 17PSI or so on the Cobb map which calls for 16 or so.

 

Face Visor, like you, I am not ready to dismiss it as false knock or noise. It would sure be dang nice to narrow down the issue. I am hoping some of the other experts will chime in and tell us what they have seen and what they think.

 

I am in the process of working on a new datalogging toy. I have an old as dirt Fujitsu Stylistic 3400 pentab. 400Mhz Celeron, 192MB RAM(soon). It runs XP great so technically it should run ROM Raider fine. Once I upgrade the RAM I'll give it a try. If it works, I'll stash it under my seat and log my entire 20 minute commute to work and back.

[qikslvr]

Fish, I'm starting to look at the logs and making some adjustments to the map. I'll get the WOT timing areas adjusted so it should run clean under boost. I'll also tweak some low load, low RPM timing to try and clean up that cruise knock a little too. Also, try to figure out what it was that the mechanic put a hole in or tore when they were working on it that one time; it may actually have more of an efffect that you think depending upon what they damaged. If they did put a hole in the turbo inlet; then you are probably going lean under boost. A WBO2 sensor would also be real handy to find out what the actual AFR is under boost.

It would also be of great assistance to get several back to back 3rd gear 2K to redline logs for consistancy when you log the new map. It's kind of a PITA to sift through pages of crap to find the few lines that are relevent to what we are working in. Let's focus on getting the WOT runs to come out clean then we'll work in the low end stuff after that. I'll get the map tweaked and e-mail it to you in a little bit.

P.M. me with the e-mail address that you want the map sent to.

[fishbone]

My tech said he nicked the cover where the cam gears are, it was a small hole that he patched with silicone. It's just a cover for debris, isn't it?

I'm gonna wash the motor and watch for those two spots we noticed oil on the turbo inlet and I'll let you know if they get dirty again.

Any particular WB02 on the cheap you would recommend?

[fishbone]

Pulled a LV yesterday, pending Mark's response/revise.

Thoughts?

I've got some logs too to go along with this, weird thing is some 1-2-3 pulls had no knock, one 3rd gear pull had 4 events, two had no knock whatsoever. Maybe we're at the very very edge on this gas.

The 5-13 learning view was JUST after I had done a realtime reflash of one of his revisions and before I had gone datalogging.

In case you can't tell the difference between the two, the one that shows less knock events and -4 AFR learning 40+ was the one before the datalogging session.

So far IAM has been at 1.0 so I guess we are making progress.

Is FBKC EVER normal to go into negative numbers? It occasionally shows -2 on my AP when I am in 4th gear, 40mph and going up a slight incline.

How come my engine load ranges cut off at 1.6? I've seen some LVs on 05s go as high as 2.6 or so?

[fishbone]

Here's some logs, for those that care to look at them. I don't fully understand why some pulls are clean, others not.

The order is in reverse chronological, more or less.

romraiderlog_20100513_191343.csv

romraiderlog_20100513_192940.csv

romraiderlog_20100513_193424.csv

romraiderlog_20100513_193805.csv

romraiderlog_20100513_193907.csv

romraiderlog_20100513_190823.csv

romraiderlog_20100513_191213.csv

[fishbone]

Just wanted to give an update, car is happy and has been happy for a while now, yay. qikslvr rules.

Gonna have to look at that darn TGV code. If a sensor is failing, I'm doing the deletes.

[fishbone]

I've got the latest version of ATR and not sure which table I need to be looking at for the FLKC ranges. I basically need to bump up mine for now to 1.2 or so in order to stop the car from listening to my noisy engine I looked at all of them twice and I swear I can't see it.

[fishbone]

If anyone is bored out of their skull and feel like looking at logs, I'm making them public on Dropbox.

http://db.tt/6vEnVjn

I had a -6 FBKC event while under vacuum and fairly trivial engine load the other day. Fun!

[fishbone]

IAM dropped again. Never even went WOT, just putting around town. This time I logged pretty much full drives to work and back. I am pretty sure it is low load noise causing constant FLKC which in turn is pulling IAM down. I can reset the ECU, do 3rd gear pulls, all clean, no knock. Few days city driving, barely any boost, IF 3 PSI and poof, low IAM again.

[iNVAR]

Hrm, so you're getting a false knock reading? Thought quicksilver helped you work these issues out? Does he have any further input?

[fishbone]

He is a hard man to get a hold of

But, basically, yes, knock either false or not, pulling IAM. Same issue PDX struggled with. Combed the motor, no rattles that I can find. Been going on for what, 3 years now? Pull after pull in 3rd gear, no knock, OCCASIONALLY a -2 north of 6K but not consistent and VERY rare.

The latest long and complete driving logs I did on purpose, avoiding significant throttle/load/boost to see if FLKC/IAM affected.

As it is evident in LVs even, the cells that record FLKC are random and all over the place on the same map.

I have been reading the table def PDF from Cobb, trying to understand ATR better. I need to learn the basics so I'm not helpless.

 

Under Ignition Tables>Knock Control, there is a Base/Realtime table called Fine Knock Learning.

The load ranges are 0.85-1.10-1.35-1.6

The RPM ranges are 1650-2600-3200-4000-4800-5800

Is this the table in which I need to change the values?

Do I max out the load values as far as ATR will allow me to?

Do I touch RPM ranges or leave them be?

Is there another table that I need to touch?

However, there is another table, Coarse Knock Learning (DAM) Modify (Load Range)

Cobb says this table is the calculated load range in which potential changes to the DAM can be made. The Coarse Knock Learning (DAM) Modify (RPM Range) table must also be met as well as other conditions.

There is no description/definition for the Fine Knock learning. Is this actually where the info is pulled into Learning View from?

I just want to step up the low-end flkc up to 1.2 and try it out from there.

Here is another newb question. What exactly defines the cell values in these tables? I mean the RPM increments, load increments etc? Why 0.95-1.0-2.70 etc?

And how in the heck is a common man supposed to be able to figure out with certainty if what is present in his logs/lv is true knock or not? I am thinking DIY detcans because frankly, I got nothin' else.

 

This is just a Cobb Stage 2 tune that we tweaked to dial in fueling some, boost and timing.

[fishbone]

Also, the input is appreciated and I thank you. I am not looking for a substitute for learning on my own. I just need some guidance, pointers, encouragement etc. I am not looking to turn into Infamous jr, I just want to be able to make small tweaks here and there.

I've got a 1K mile drive coming up in a week. My gut feeling is telling me the tune is safe(ish) so I will try not to worry about it if I don't get it cleaned up by then.

The multitude of tables in ATR is very intimidating, but I realize now there are only really a handful to play with, on a Stage 2 car anyway.

[fishbone]

Found a loose bolt and nut on the heatshield, it wasn't tightened at all, backed out a quarter, just rattling in there. Took it off, took off the whole heatshield actually. Anyone have something like this trigger the knock sensor?