Stage 2 (cont'd)

[fishbone]

The manual boost controller and 15PSI actuator ought to make tuning for boost easier too. No more overshooting the target hopefully.

[iNVAR]

I am trying to understand, above all right now, I think, we are looking at the same logs and at the same LV, Jarrad thinks it's fine while from what I've read linked by iNVAR was that I should not drive the car more than I am willing to walk

I know you're just joking around, and that's cool, but there's a difference between being OCD (I'm OCDish too, no worries) and just out and out stubborn. If I say something, I'll try to provide evidence and direct you the right way. I'm not a genius, and I certainly don't know much about tuning. But I do have common sense.... your engine is knocking, a LOT, ALL OVER. You should figure out why before you go stressing it with WOT pulls any further.

 

Reminds me of when I argued with you on your YT video about your 0-60 time on a 5EAT and you kept insisting that your video showed that your bone stock LGT was doing it in under 6 secs without brake boosting.

[fishbone]

there's a difference between being OCD (I'm OCDish too, no worries) and just out and out stubborn.

You ain't kiddin'. You're looking at a guy who is borderline lactose intolerant but still consumes more dairy products than your average person

I wasn't refuting either what you wrote or what I have heard from the tuner. I was just kinda illustrating that I was caught in the middle in what looked like a difference of opinion. The gloves are off and just decided that whatever someone may or may not say, none of the tunes I have had so far have looked great and that is that and the issue will be addressed once the weather cooperates around here. We've had several inches of snow in the past few days once again, I do not think we have had clear roads for one day in the last 3 weeks.

[NSFW]

I skimmed the older part of the thread very briefly and only looked in detail at the last batch of logs. I don't think they're all that bad, actually. If I'm overlooking something, I hope you'll all point it out to me.

 

First of all, what were you doing when you took the first log? The throttle fluctuates a lot... were you revving the engine in neutral?

 

Knock sum increments a few times, always right after you blip the throttle. Load is changing rapidly at those moments (for example, it goes from 0.31 to 1.12 between adjacent log rows at time 7016), so the ECU almost certainly used FBKC to respond the knock. I don't think those knock sum increments mean that WOT pulls are going to be a problem. It does suggest that you might get a knock right as you go WOT, but that's all I read from it.

 

That's a lot of knock sensor activity, but given the circumstances in which it occurred I wouldn't lose sleep over it yet. I don't think it's noise either - it happens in specific scenarios and it's predictable. I'd consider it a separate problem from the WOT-pull issues you were having earlier, too.

 

In the last log, where you says you did the whole 1-2-3 pull (I think you touched 4th too), there were no knock sum increments. The weird thing about this pull is that your IAM was .875 rather than 1.0. That says two things to me:

 

1) You should get your IAM up to 1.0 and repeat that test.

2) If you do get knock with 1.0 IAM, you can scale your DA table by .875 and you'll be just fine. However I don't know if that's necessary, and I won't know until/unless you log a pull with IAM at 1.0.

 

I find it strange that your IAM is so low, though. Do you know if it ever made it back up to 1.0 after the last time you did an ECU reset? My car will go from 0.5 to 1.0 as soon as I find a freeway onramp and just accelerate at about half-throttle, but I don't know if that's typical. Consider driving around with IAM visible in the logger, and do some part-throttle pulls (like you would getting onto a freeway if you're not in a hurry) and see if you can get IAM up. If you can, I think it's safe to do another 1-2-3 WOT pull. If you can't, I'm stumped.

 

Also, my car will increment knock sum sorta randomly when I'm cruising, and sometimes when starting from a stop. It did that with the stock tune, too. I don't think it's anything to be concerned about. LBGT mentioned that he thinks it happens consistently if he slips the clutch too much.

[fishbone]

Thanks NSFW for looking at it.

First of all, what were you doing when you took the first log? The throttle fluctuates a lot... were you revving the engine in neutral?

No, actually, I was

in 4th gear, torque converter locked up, modulating the throttle because I could see that I could get the knock sum to increment. Draw a graph based on the throttle opening column and you'll see it wobble

So I was basically cruising at ~40mph. I wanted to see if I could duplicate what was going on.

I find it strange that your IAM is so low, though. Do you know if it ever made it back up to 1.0 after the last time you did an ECU reset?

No, it never did. I have seen it repeatedly go down to what it is now but never made it back up to 1.0. I believe that every time I got it to go below 1.0 was when I held it in 3rd gear and pulled past 4k rpms.

Here's another story. Sunday night I was cruising in 4th gear at around 40mph, I accelerated to 48 and cruised some more. When I looked down IAM was 0.0. Talk about shitting your pants. When I had accelerated from 40 to 48 it was not even enough to kick the torque converter out of lock-up, which means thottle never went past 20% or so. Either way, I had reset the ECU since and it has stayed at 1.0 but I have never taken the car over 3500rpms or around 1.8-2.0 load and have never kicked it in manyal mode. Even if I wanted to I couldn't since we've been hit with snow

In the last log, where you says you did the whole 1-2-3 pull (I think you touched 4th too), there were no knock sum increments

Yes, what is that? I noticed it too. One second clean logs, the next minute knock. Call me crazy but I am starting to suspect my tranny mount *shakes finger*

My car will go from 0.5 to 1.0 as soon as I find a freeway onramp and just accelerate at about half-throttle, but I don't know if that's typical.

That's what mine does when I first reset the ECU. It starts at 0.5, goes up to 0.8 and then 1.0 in less than 2 miles.

Consider driving around with IAM visible in the logger, and do some part-throttle pulls (like you would getting onto a freeway if you're not in a hurry) and see if you can get IAM up. If you can, I think it's safe to do another 1-2-3 WOT pull. If you can't, I'm stumped.

Like I said, I have driven with IAM at what it is now for 45 miles cruising around and it has not gone up back to 1.0

Also, my car will increment knock sum sorta randomly when I'm cruising, and sometimes when starting from a stop. It did that with the stock tune, too. I don't think it's anything to be concerned about. LBGT mentioned that he thinks it happens consistently if he slips the clutch too much.

Yep, same story here.

We'll see wtf is going on once qikslvr and I can get together and look at this thing. There are over 60 e-mails back and forth between PDX and I, about 10 map revisions over the course of 1 year because knock just keeps coming back in different areas. We'll see how we'll tackle this. Maybe my injectors/fueling is doing funky things.

Couple times when I did a 3rd gear pull, at around 3500rpms I can feel the motor shudder once like it does at idle sometimes. No idea what that is but it's happened twice that I can think of.

[fishbone]

I'll add this. I was coming back from qikslvr's house after I had picked up some parts, I had a tank of 93. I decided to reset the ECU at a stoplight, IAM was at .87. Got it back up to 1.0, half a mile later I went WOT. IAM went back down to .87. Wish I logged that pull but something seems to bother the car quite a bit past 3500rpms. There is knock there, for sure, enough for it to get into negative numbers for IA. Lowest I got was -0.5 IIRC.

Last time I pulled a log on the PDX tune, IA is set at 8.0 at WOT and like clockwork at 3500 rpms it would go to 7.5 and at 4k rpm to 7.0 and would stay there all the way to redline. And when I say like clockwork, I mean that dead on at those revs, every time all the time. I decided against running that map based on the fact that IAM also went down to .87 on it and the AFR scaling was so far off. PDX probably dumped a bunch of fuel to cure the knock events, which stayed away for a long time, then came back.

[iNVAR]

Stoooop goooooing WOT

[fishbone]

I haven't since that last batch of logs. I'm not thick. As a matter of fact I seldom go WOT as it is. That whole affair coming back from qikslvr's house was before pulling the logs. There's nothing to "test" anymore, it is knocking at WOT and high revs and that is that.

[NSFW]

Thanks, apparently I need to read more closely.

 

Your IAM is weird and I'm stumped. Have you considered getting a compression and leakdown test?

[fishbone]

I asked the dealer for a quote and the response I got, instead of telling me a price, is that they don't do it unless there is a serious reason for it.

 

Maybe I should have rephrased it

"Hi, can I please give you my money for a compression test?"

Would anything of the sort mechanically wrong show up in an oil analysis? I've had several recent ones, nothing out of the ordinary except for some slightly elevated bearing wear last winter.

I'll call them dealer monkeys again.

 

LE: apparently they charge a flat rate of 3.0 labor hours. Around $250?

Later later edit: would there be merit in trying 1-step colder plugs? I am currently running the stock NGKs which I have swapped out at 55k miles, so that's 20K miles ago.

[NSFW]

I'll call them dealer monkeys again.

 

LE: apparently they charge a flat rate of 3.0 labor hours. Around $250?

 

Huh. I wonder how much they would have charged if you didn't repeatedly call them "dealer monkeys." They probably don't like you very much at this point.

[fishbone]

The feeling is mutual. Me calling them monkeys is a direct result of the asshattery afoot at said dealer which will remain nameless

Other places quoted me 400 bucks or more. 3 hours labor for removing the plugs and 1 hour for the actual test

[RIPjeep2002]

I hope you didn't blow a ringland fishbone.

[fishbone]

I don't think there's enough reason to believe that at this point, is there? I would do a comp test on the spot if it wasn't that expensive.

If Mark and I can't tune things out, then I'll start hunting for mechanical problems.

[RIPjeep2002]

Try the tuning it out first, but from the reading I have done on the ringland issue, some blow smoke, others have knock at certiain RPM's on the logs.

[fishbone]

Blown ringland would show abnormal metal wear in an oil analysis, wouldn't it? So far the only thing that's been kind of iffy was fuel dillution which was anywhere between 1.5 and 1.7%. However, piston and ring wear were lower than average and I remember Terry Dyson specifically saying how great the wear looks which indicates the piston heads are clean and the rings are forming a nice tight seal on the cylinder walls. I'm not writing this to get iNVAR to think I am being stubborn again, now that I realized how cheap a compression tester actually is I might do it myself with some help, but so far I can't say with confidence we have strong evidence to consider this avenue just yet.

Despite what rao thinks, routine oil analyses are a good thing As far as I'm concerned by changing the oil myself they are actually free, depending on which service (price) you go with.

[RIPjeep2002]

Blown ringland would show abnormal metal wear in an oil analysis, wouldn't it? So far the only thing that's been kind of iffy was fuel dillution which was anywhere between 1.5 and 1.7%. However, piston and ring wear were lower than average and I remember Terry Dyson specifically saying how great the wear looks which indicates the piston heads are clean and the rings are forming a nice tight seal on the cylinder walls. I'm not writing this to get iNVAR to think I am being stubborn again, now that I realized how cheap a compression tester actually is I might do it myself with some help, but so far I can't say with confidence we have strong evidence to consider this avenue just yet.

Despite what rao thinks, routine oil analyses are a good thing As far as I'm concerned by changing the oil myself they are actually free, depending on which service (price) you go with.

 

IT can show abnormal metal wear, but also it will eat oil for breakfast lunch and dinner. Check your oil level. If it seems ok, then it probably isn't a ringland and maybe a bad tune, or sensor.

[fishbone]

Aye, it's been burning the same steady amount of oil since the day I switched it to synthetic when I bought the car and it was still bone stock, little over half quart every 3K miles. More or less consistent with what other Subie owners experience. In fact it depends on what oil I use. Mobil 1 doesn't burn a drop, German Castrol so and so, Pennzoil Platinum the most.

I still want to do a comp test, just because, if I can get some help and do it myself.

At this point I am not dismissing anything that can possibly related, I'm just trying to prioritize everything, and as it stands a tune is top.

[RIPjeep2002]

Its a good place to start fishbone.

[qikslvr]

We'll just start with a tune to clean up them timing, see what happens and go from there. If I can't clean it up; then we can bust out the compression and leakdown tools and see what they have to say. I'll gladly do the leakdown and compression tests for half of what the dealer wants to charge;).

[fishbone]

Hey Mark, I think we're gonna have fun tuning this thing

IAM has finally crawled back up to 1 and has stayed there. But once in a blue moon I'll look down on the AP and see that the min value will actually be 0.5. Yesterday I "caught the car red handed" doing this. I was dropping my wife off at the mall and I look down, IAM is at 0.5 when I was idling the car. Not even a quarter mile down the road, went back up to 1.

Russ Garage will do a compression and leakdown test for me for less than half the price of the dealer so I'll try to get that done this week if possible.

[NSFW]

Det cans. Click here.

 

Other than that, I'm all out of ideas.

[qikslvr]

If you don't get up here to have Russ do it; we could probably get it done. Pretty easy; just have to pull the plugs...

[fishbone]

Det cans. Click here.

 

Other than that, I'm all out of ideas.

Thanks for that. The reason I'm laughing is that I have well documented problems with hearing certain high and low sounds. Basically my hearing spectrum is narrower than a normal person's. I had chronic pneumonia when I was a wee little kid and they shot me up with meds so tough that they affected my hearing nerves. It was either that or dying. So I could probably shoot a rod through the wheel well and wouldn't hear it

J/k, it's not that bad.

 

Mark, Russ said he'll definitely do a leakdown since the comp test is easy to fudge up and is not quite as conclusive. I'll take this opportunity to verify the gap on all plugs and inspect their condition, just because. I would have swapped them out but they only have 20K miles on them.

[qikslvr]

Just let me know what's going on.