mars_volta Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Its a FAT PIG with less features than the model 5 years ago. This was my first and maybe last Subaru if they don't correct this direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viber Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I agree with IWSS 100%. It sucks, because now if I want a sleek and sporty AWD sedan I need to save up for an Audi or BMW! I took the time to read IWSS entire post, and he is 100% spot on. The 2005-2009 Legacy was on the right track, and just needed a handful of tweaks to be an outstanding and competitive car. It had to grow, but there is a right way to handle growth, and a wrong way. 2009 Audi A4 grew but didnt wreck the design, and alienate the current A4 owners. Instead Subaru decided to go down market and create an AWD Malibu. And even if I went full retarded and decided I did like the 2010 LGT, I get a used G37xS fully loaded for $35,000. Similar look and price, better car. And as a rule, I will never buy a car that doesnt give me everything I have in my current car. It needs to build on the current feature set, and give me much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krzyss Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 +1 for IWSS Last time Subaru went for Camry, Accord customers they almost went under. Syndicate: LSD, fog lights, intermittent wipers (with more settings) are necessary in inclement weather, something Subaru claims to be the "normal" setting for its vehicles. AWD does not help if you do not see through the windshield. In press release SOA claims that all Outbacks have VDC but I do not see it listed in Legacy preliminary specs. If GT has no VDC then it is even worse than I thought. Krzys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 ...I'm even sure where to start with that post, but essentially it's come down to differing opinions on how things are and and how some believe things should be. Things are as they are, only the reaction to that is an opinion. How some believe things should be is always up for discussion, and if it isn't then there is a serious problem. ...Subaru isn't chasing the lowest common denominator, they're following the money. The everyday drivers are the people driving Toyota and Honda sales. Contray to popular belief held here it isn't the STI, ///M Power, or whatever performance label you like that keeps companies afloat. You generally can't build a company off of a base of enthusiasts who generally cry for something and then when it's made available don't purchase it. Subaru made a prudent business decision, not one I can wholeheartdly agree with, but hardly what I would call acquiescence. The first sentence is an difference without a distinction. They are chasing fictional money to the BOTTOM. Toyota and Honda have been posting HUGE losses for the first time, in some cases. Subaru hasn't, with their current product mix. The every day drivers already have plenty of Toyotas and Hondas to drive, and demand is drying up for them. NO ONE CAN ANSWER THIS FOR ME: How much untapped marketshare in the mainstream sedan segment do you think there is? Secondly, how is Subaru, with less option content, and bad copy-cat styling, going to make a dent, against the originals? Why didn't people vote enthusiastically for McCain's liberal-lite option, nor were "R"s excited about McCain's candidacy? Because if they wanted that, they could get the REAL THING from the traditional "D" source! It was the people who wanted a real alternative that got left out in the cold. It is like having to choose between Pepsi and Coke, when you'd rather be drinking Coffee or Milk, or something else. Pepsi and Coke aren't that different, when neither one is what you want. Subaru has pulled a McCain with the new Legacy. Camry/Accord lite, with a dash of AWD. But the people who buy that kind of car will just buy the original thing, and don't CARE. Subaru doesn't have a substantial angle on mainstream, and they are no longer alternative to mainstream. ...while the casual buyers are obviously the target of the new Legacy (I'd argue they were for the last one as well if you look at the sales breakdown) I"m not seeing where the enthusiast was thrown under the bus. Especially when know even knows how the GT will perform or it's exact specs. The GT retains a turbo charged flat 4, w/a quicker spooling turbo...sounds like something for the enthusiast to me. The GT is only available w/a 6-speed manual, yet another nod to the enthusiast. Granted everything on the enthusiast wish list didn't maker it I'm not seeing the car as total loss. Especially since I'm an enthusiast that needs the extra space now. Where else would I go for an AWD sedan w/a manual? Yes, the GT still lives. But with less equipment, not more, not better, aside from FINALLY getting the output bump that WRX got last year, and Legacy GT Spec B, at the very least, SHOULD Have gotten, had they not handicapped that to bring out now. Most of the buying public, as we know, chooses automatics. The GT no longer offers that option. Customers wanting automatic gearboxes (the wife doesn't drive stick, traffic on the commute, or whatever reason...) will be shuffled to other brands, or to the 3.6 Legacy. The GT being manual-only will very likely be as rare, or more rare than, the current GT Spec B. Limiting the options, and de-contenting the car are going to seriously diminish Legacy GT's appeal, and I think they are doing that on purpose. They didn't want to cut it entirely, because they still are using the "sport sedan" and references to being a more enjoyable driver's car, to try and compete, so they couldn't become complete hypocrites by axing the GT like they axed the Outback XT. The GT has not been optioned up. It is certainly no Legacy STI. It is a placeholder, so that they can continue to claim they make a sporty sedan in that class. The '10 Legacy GT is going to be a slim offering, while they emphasize the 2.5i for economy, and the 3.6 for more premium option buyers, and merely pay lip service to the car being a sport sedan. Everything so far known points to that. ...I'm not quite sure why some are surprised that Subaru is following the money versus trying to cater a to group of fickle armchair automotive engineers. While the new Legacy is more squarely aimed at traditional mid-size competiton than ever before, some are still quick to write it off b/c they don;t like the way it looks...most not even having seen it in person. Or it's missing some trivial option...without even driving the car. Just my .02 though. I've said it before, I will say it again. IF you can sell ME a car, you can probably sell that car to nearly anyone else looking at it. The reverse is not true. Legacy used to be an ALTERNATIVE to the mainstream, and SUBARU was an ALTERNATIVE brand. Now it is an also-ran, bringing up the rear of the pack. If the car is ugly, it is ugly. It is simple as that. Why should I pay a significant majority of my yearly earnings for a car I don't like? You may call options trivial, some of them may not be. And even if they are, taking many of them away, while others are adding them, or keeping them, is a net shrinkage, not a net growth. That stuff adds up, especially when Legacy is trying to go after nameplates that sell more of a Model line, than Subaru sells as a BRAND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 What's in the STI isn't needed for a 2.5i. The WRX's 5 speed handles big power bumps pretty well. If the new 6 speed is based off that design, I don't see why it it would be an issue there either. Depends what you mean by "handles". Can you run big power through a 5MT? Yes.... For how long..... Nevermind that the STI box is a nicer shifting unit then the 5MT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ in PA Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 You may call options trivial, some of them may not be. And even if they are, taking many of them away, while others are adding them, or keeping them, is a net shrinkage, not a net growth. That stuff adds up, especially when Legacy is trying to go after nameplates that sell more of a Model line, than Subaru sells as a BRAND. In my experience, when a car company starts nickel and diming you on things like seat heaters, intermittent wiper settings, folding mirrors, etc. it's a sign that the company is starting to go downhill. I saw it with Saturn and now I see it with Subaru. (My SL2 was actually a pretty good car for the money back in the 90's, but then GM cost cutting took hold and the Saturn ION was a complete piece of crap. Ugly, cheap, torsion beam rear suspension replaced the independent setup on the S Series, drum rear brakes on all trim levels even though my older SL2 had 4 wheel disc, no more locking fuel filler door, and numerous other "little" things like that. So I stopped buying Saturns after GM ruined a good thing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 Depends what you mean by "handles". Can you run big power through a 5MT? Yes.... For how long..... Nevermind that the STI box is a nicer shifting unit then the 5MT. There are plenty of modded WRX's and LGT's out there... [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throttlejockey Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 I bet the 3.6R will be a nice car to drive now that is has more tq and hp.. Just don't get out and look at it. They should drop a 6 speed in it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molal24 Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 lol I wonder if they will come out with a Subaru Legacy Hybrid. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan all have them.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 There are plenty of modded WRX's and LGT's out there... ....and there are plenty with fragged 5MT's... The STI 6MT is a much stronger and nicer gearbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted May 1, 2009 Share Posted May 1, 2009 ....and there are plenty with fragged 5MT's... The STI 6MT is a much stronger and nicer gearbox. yeah it is stronger and nicer... but overkill for anything that isn't an STI. I bet a lot of those fragged 5MT's are abused. I personally know a lot of people here with modded 5MT's that haven't had issues. Those that have are the clutch dump kings... and all but two of those guys had 2 years with their cars before transmission implosion. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted May 4, 2009 Share Posted May 4, 2009 You would probably say that about the 5MT's clutch, too. A nice piece that is going to cost me a BUNCH of money, at less than 65K miles, just after 60k mile service, and the same time as new dampers, as well... This car is probably going to end up costing north of 2000$ to sort out. Let alone if my turbo frags it's bearings, or the intercooler splits at the plastic end cap seams, as some have... or the filter banjo bolts starve the turbo for oil. Are the '10 Legacys going to cost tons of money to maintain, too? All the downsides that the new car has, plus the same maintenance and reliability hurdles??? Nasioc seems to be abuzz of engine problems on the newer WRXs, even '09, too... although I haven't dug into that discussion. I am not sure I want to know... So it is nice to see sycophants saying "aww, it's all just abuse, not a possible problem..." thanks, but I am not sure that I buy that. Somebody could talk me VERY easily into selling off the Legacy, and buying a nice SVX for occaisions and a project car, and a 5-speed manual Forester for utility and winter slogging. 5-speed manual foresters are 50/50 symmetrical AWD, not 90/10 FWD biased, right? A 6-speed Legacy GT Spec B drivetrain swap, behind the EG33 with exhaust and intake... on the SVX would be just fine. I think the 3.90:1 final drive is stock on those cars, anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted May 5, 2009 Share Posted May 5, 2009 yeah it is stronger and nicer... but overkill for anything that isn't an STI. I bet a lot of those fragged 5MT's are abused. I personally know a lot of people here with modded 5MT's that haven't had issues. Those that have are the clutch dump kings... and all but two of those guys had 2 years with their cars before transmission implosion. What gets me... Subaru already has a very nice 6MT. Why bother design a new gearbox and get new tooling, does the STI gearbox really cost that much more even with scaled up production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagcars26 Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 What gets me... Subaru already has a very nice 6MT. Why bother design a new gearbox and get new tooling, does the STI gearbox really cost that much more even with scaled up production? I've been wondering the same myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigT Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 What gets me... Subaru already has a very nice 6MT. Why bother design a new gearbox and get new tooling, does the STI gearbox really cost that much more even with scaled up production? Theoretically they should make up the difference on economies of scale. However, a lot of this depends on the cost of the inputs for the two. They may stilll enjoy the luxury of economy of scale if the production process and components are fairly similar. They can probably still shave money in the long run by making the new 6MT with cheaper components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jagcars26 Posted May 6, 2009 Share Posted May 6, 2009 Theoretically they should make up the difference on economies of scale. However, a lot of this depends on the cost of the inputs for the two. They may stilll enjoy the luxury of economy of scale if the production process and components are fairly similar. They can probably still shave money in the long run by making the new 6MT with cheaper components. And that is a shame because the STi 6speed is a great tranny.Almost bulletproof,smooth shifting, etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adidasoutback Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 ...I'm even sure where to start with that post, but essentially it's come down to differing opinions on how things are and and how some believe things should be. ...feature set in the '10 LGT is decontented from the previous model. However the only truly regrettable losses I can even see are the folding mirrors and the rear LSD and even that's really going to come down to how hard you drive your car. The lack of HIDs, wiper speeds and etc in the long run don't matter. As those features don't detract from the performance of the new model nor are they total out of step w/the current segment competition. ...Subaru isn't chasing the lowest common denominator, they're following the money. The everyday drivers are the people driving Toyota and Honda sales. Contray to popular belief held here it isn't the STI, ///M Power, or whatever performance label you like that keeps companies afloat. You generally can't build a company off of a base of enthusiasts who generally cry for something and then when it's made available don't purchase it. Subaru made a prudent business decision, not one I can wholeheartdly agree with, but hardly what I would call acquiescence. ...while the casual buyers are obviously the target of the new Legacy (I'd argue they were for the last one as well if you look at the sales breakdown) I"m not seeing where the enthusiast was thrown under the bus. Especially when know even knows how the GT will perform or it's exact specs. The GT retains a turbo charged flat 4, w/a quicker spooling turbo...sounds like something for the enthusiast to me. The GT is only available w/a 6-speed manual, yet another nod to the enthusiast. Granted everything on the enthusiast wish list didn't maker it I'm not seeing the car as total loss. Especially since I'm an enthusiast that needs the extra space now. Where else would I go for an AWD sedan w/a manual? ...I'm not quite sure why some are surprised that Subaru is following the money versus trying to cater a to group of fickle armchair automotive engineers. While the new Legacy is more squarely aimed at traditional mid-size competiton than ever before, some are still quick to write it off b/c they don;t like the way it looks...most not even having seen it in person. Or it's missing some trivial option...without even driving the car. Just my .02 though. QFT: Sorry but some of us would prefer a car where you dont feel peoples knees in your back when there is some one behind you. The current gen Legacy/Outback is a small midsize car and its the number one comment I get when any one is in my car. Adding size will always add weight but it will add comfort, and since im guessing only like 4 percent of the subaru owning driving population post on here, im pretty sure like said, subaru is making a car the normal person not the people on here who bitch about the lack of an LSD and think that spec bs are the best thing ever, even though they dont sell well and are way over priced. Basically, get over yourselves, I think most of you are pissed because it does have more room and it does have a better engine, so you are trying to deflect with exuses of why everything else sucks. Also looks are subjective, I think the porche cayanne is ugly, that doesnt stop it from selling well as a luxury suv because I think its ugly. Argueing about the looks is as dumb as you guys comparing the stock 2010 gt to a modded one. Its an unfair battle and not one the other 95% of people who dont live on thier computers posting on a web forum, would even dream to compare a new car to. Yes subaru may have lost some buyers on this forum because you all dont like it but, I can garuntee they will gain 10x more people who wanted subaru to make a bigger more comfortable car at a lower price, with more power. Which is exactly what they did. The 2010 looses nothing but a bunch of people who whine about everything that subaru does and thinks all they should make is a 500 hp awd small family sedan that doesnt sell to any one but people on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camber Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Subaru has gone a different direction from the previous Legacy. The Subaru Legacy lead Engineer has gone off the record and said the new Legacy is aimed at fat Americans. Will this sell more cars for Subaru? It remains to be seen.... Subaru has a history of sales flops when they attempt to go mainstream or after that particular market segment. Also, unlike what most supported like to believe, the FWD american mid sized car market is not "where the money is". It's one of the most price conscious, incentive laden and competitive segments. What's the point of selling 100k more cars to people who don't really car about the car or the brand and not making any more money or losing a ton of money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeaux Posted May 10, 2009 Share Posted May 10, 2009 Heh. You guys are a hoot. Whine, whine, whine about everything. -joe- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captainhook Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 Having your top of the line "flag ship" model msrp under 29K really isn't a good thing. Since they're aiming the Legacy at 40-60 year old's now, one needs to consider price image a lot more. Most of us younger guys could care less about the name, we'll debadge it and care solely about performance. The old heads, however, find brand image pretty important. I remember hearing years ago that mercedes/bmw had cars listing just under 100K, as soon as they bumped them over 100K sales shot up. Price image def sells when it comes to the older folk. I will laugh pretty hard if the car that was aimed specifically at that age bracket suffers in sales because people that age look at it as a "cheap subaru." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Subaru has stated that its customers as a whole are fairly affluent and can buy whatever they want... but chose Subaru because of value for the $. Subaru has been adjusting prices down since calendar year 2006. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 If Subaru de-contents and makes their cars less of a value, exactly how are those "fairly affluent" buyers going to justify buying their new cars that are less and less attractive, both aesthetically, and $-for-features... If people are buying responsibly, and below their means, which is a good and wise thing to do... what makes Subaru think that they are stupid, and won't notice content declining, and then go look for brands like, say Hyundai Genesis, which is blowing the doors off of value for $, in it's segment, because Hyundai still has a clue that it is trying to sell to PEOPLE, not morons or robots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The B4 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 worked ok with the Forester and Impreza. *shrug* [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dtmenace Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 yes, both huge sellers compared to the competition .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 Forester is supposed to be an inexpensive vehicle, as is base impreza. They are the economical lineup. Legacy isn't supposed to be. There are people who are not impressed with current Impreza. At least the design language looks SUV-like, so an actual SUV wearing it doesn't look odd. Not like a hunchback impreza, or a camel-like Legacy, on top of having to settle for less on the option list. Where are the 5EAT versions... Where is the 5MT Forester XT? Where is the H6 top-end forester, for that matter... Don't some of Forester's competitors offer V6 engines? Where did the leather trim option go on the higher end of WRX and STI? If Legacy is going to get HUGE, then why isn't GR Impreza sedan filling in for BL Legacy with GOOD design, and optional equipment... Maybe if GR Impreza sedan were more versatile, some of us could let Legacy go, and have something in the Subaru catalog to consider buying. Where has the Subaru coupe been for more than 10 years? GC Impreza or SVX, or something between the two? And what is to say that if Subaru stepped up, and actually put good value options in those vehicles, as well as the Legacy, that they would not sell BETTER. I'd say it would almost be a certainty that if they stepped up and hired a competent designer that doesn't use tracing paper and a current car magazine, and designed some actually attractive vehicles, and then showed them on TV and in print once in a while, they would sell BETTER. What is it with being satisfied with mediocrity? do you figure it just couldn't possibly be better than mediocre? Subaru is obviously no longer a company hungry to compete. It is a shame, they could do so well if they were passionate enough to push for it, and be better off for the effort. Hyundai isn't doing everything perfectly, but look at how they are pushing... The Genesis Sedan is an upper-cut to the jaw of a lot of established mid-size entry-lux cars. And it looks decent doing it. It carries it's mass better than Legacy now does. Hyundai has the cojones to field a RWD sport coupe into the heart of the 25-30k price point, even if the styling is only 85%... it is a very good first effort. The Azera was good. The new Sonata looks to be shaping up very nicely on the mainstream FWD category. They are pushing forward, and competing. Subaru is turning over and shrinking away from the market with marginal aesthetics, and uncompetitive de-contenting efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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