2005 Acura RL with SH-AWD: perfection?

[CombatCQB]

[url]http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/previews,view,Acura.spy?artid=23706&pg=4[/url] The 2005 RL will feature Acura's new SH-AWD system which not only splits power front to back but also side to side using a electronmagnetic clutch differential. It can also independently control the wheel speeds so that it can actually accelerate the outside wheels when cornering This brings almost complete independent control to each wheel and really micromanaging power distribution. Reliability and responsiveness is still in question, but the technology will be very interesting to follow.

[SUBE555]

There has been some talk about it both here and on NABISCO. [url=http://www.legacysti.com/viewtopic.php?t=528&highlight=acura+sh]THIS[/url] was a short discussion previously here. It all sounds good, but I'm still pretty iffy on adding that much extra stuff when Subaru's AWD is mostly mechanical and works rather well in most instances. Plus, if something does get messed up, the replacement costs are likely higher as well. Subaru, it just works. ;)

[PPower]

[quote name='SUBE555']There has been some talk about it both here and on NABISCO. [url=http://www.legacysti.com/viewtopic.php?t=528&highlight=acura+sh]THIS[/url] was a short discussion previously here. It all sounds good, but I'm still pretty iffy on adding that much extra stuff when Subaru's AWD is mostly mechanical and works rather well in most instances. Plus, if something does get messed up, the replacement costs are likely higher as well. Subaru, it just works. ;)[/quote] Was that a short discussion or what?! I think that the SH-AWD is a pretty neat concept. It worked well in the fwd application on the Prelude, and the application on the rear wheels should give a bit of a 4-wheel steering effect. This could be negative because I know that many 300ZX drivers will effectively disengage Super HICAS for a better feel. Maybe they just aren't used to the feeling. I dunno. As for the reliability, the rear won't be handling all of the power (50% at most probably) which will help reliability. The SH gears were being used much more often on the front wheels of the Prelud SH than we'll see on the RL. Likely SH-AWD on the TL the following year and maybe a Legacy GT "fighter" TSX w/ a 250hp turbo/AWD version.

[SUBE555]

Holy schnike, I was paging through the new C&D that just came and I tripped across an article on the new RL w/ the SH-AWD. As quoted by Honda's exec V-P of operations, "Significantly under $50,000." Starting around $48,000. :lol: Sorry, but I had to share my laugh. Actually, going with a gearbox in the center and shafts spending the same power fore and aft on a single shaft less a center diff to front and rear diffs, each with two electronically controlled units allowing full 100:0 and 0:100 bias front/rear, side/side and everything in between would be ultimately the most versatile. A center diff could be an engineering option perhaps. It would be the only way Subaru would truly be ahead of the other systems out there. It would be expensive, maybe a little heavier, but it would be ultra-versatile.

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

The car is great and all but if they really want to sell this car to an up market they need to put a V8 in making around 350 hp a 4 liter would work fine. Sure I imagine this car will sell well and has some amazing features but people want that V8 well people who want to show off atleast just to say thye have the V8.

[Whitestar Pilot]

Acura. Infiniti. Lexus. I don't understand why anyone would be sucker enough to buy any of them. Its a Honda. Its a Nissan. Its a Toyota. Some people truly want to pay the extra Ten Grand for the name, and that's their decision to make. But I can think of better things to do with the money. :wink: With money thrown around the way it is here in the U.S., perhaps Subaru should come up with an upper-class logo as well to cash in on. What should they call it? Hmmm.... Suckeroo? I can see the headlines now: "The new Suckeroo STI-RLT-5is... the Acura RL fighter?

[05LegacyGT330Ci]

I'm not sure about the other two companies but after owning a few Lexus I can say that is much much more then a rebadged Toyota surea little things might be the same like te tailights but the inteiriors and engines are new. Also now Lexus has their own desing studio so start to see some different looking cars from there.

[Christopher W]

[quote name='Whitestar Pilot']Acura. Infiniti. Lexus. I don't understand why anyone would be sucker enough to buy any of them. Its a Honda. Its a Nissan. Its a Toyota. Some people truly want to pay the extra Ten Grand for the name, and that's their decision to make. But I can think of better things to do with the money. :wink: [/quote] How is that any different than what GM did for decades by passing off gussied up Pontiacs, Buicks, Chevys as Cadillacs? Slap on a little chrome, offer a different seat fabric, and voila! We have the Cadillac Cimarron! Or Ford's brain trust adding a nicer interior or wood panelling to an Explorer or F150 and remarketing them as "upmarket" Lincoln Aviators and Blackwoods. Or a little closer to home, the recent Saabaru 9-2x comes to mind as a premium-price car build on more modest mechanicals. In many cases there's a pretty clear divide between the North American market's value and luxury of divisions of some of the Japanese manufacturers - Infiniti does RWD, Nissan does FWD (with the exception of the 350Z and SUVs/trucks). Same with Toyota/Lexus. You can't buy a straight six or a V8 in a Toyota passenger car, but the Lexus division will be happy to sell you both. Only Honda/Acura have blurry lines (which is a pity, since they've had ample opportunity to distinguish one nameplate from another). A lot of that comes from Acura being a NA only badge and Honda being a relatively small company (compared with GM, Ford, D-C and Toyota, that is). And in any event, the price differential isn't as large as you make it out to be. A Lexus IS300 is about the same price as a BMW 325, but with a bigger engine and more standard equipment. An Infiniti FX45 costs a lot less than a Porsche Cayenne S. A Lexus LS430 is going to come in at [b]least[/b] 10 grand under a comparatively equipped Mercedes Benz S-class model (with fewer electrical gremlins to boot). -CW

[scubie02]

The new RL has a gorgeous interior. Guess we'll see how the awd thingie works--its not still a fwd but transfers power on slippage deal like their previous "awd" systems, is it? As far as the premium brands go--I have no problem with them and could see buying one. MOST makers have a regular and "premium" line. You get extra "stuff" on the premium line, and you tend to get the newest/best "stuff" on the premium line, which eventually trickles down to the "regular" line when they come up with something new and better for the premium line. Subaru already seems to be developing somewhat of a premium line, I believe they are calling it "Saab"...

[Whitestar Pilot]

Actually I read that GM now owns Saab, and about 20% of Subaru. That's how the WRX chasised Saab 9-2X came about. As long as Subaru is making money off the parts, its seems like a good play for them. [quote]And in any event, the price differential isn't as large as you make it out to be. A Lexus IS300 is about the same price as a BMW 325, but with a bigger engine and more standard equipment. An Infiniti FX45 costs a lot less than a Porsche Cayenne S. A Lexus LS430 is going to come in at least 10 grand under a comparatively equipped Mercedes Benz S-class model (with fewer electrical gremlins to boot). [/quote] You are right about price difference between these manufacturers, but Porsche, BMW and Mercedes are also companies that can tack on an extra 5-10 grand to the sticker simply because of their name recognition. I just can't see myself ever purchasing one, but that's just me. (Okay, okay... yeah, if my ship came in, I WOULD buy the Porsche 911 Turbo, but hey :twisted: ) Good point though about the domestics. What GM has done to Pontiac since 1982 is downright shameful, but that's a whole 'nother subject.

[SBT]

The SH-AWD sounds like an extension of the technology that Acura is using/or did use on their MDX, where the tq transfer to the rear wheels was via an electro-mechanical clutch but the rear axles were electro-magnetically coupled to the differential. Worked, but my thought then and still is, if you cut or lose power somehow to the axle, then what? I agree with SUBE555 - Subaru works without all of this complexity. KISS at work. May not be the hallmark of a "premium" brand, but there's still enough seamless technical sophistication to please the discriminating many who buy this brand. SBT

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='Whitestar Pilot']Actually I read that GM now owns Saab, and about 20% of Subaru. That's how the WRX chasised Saab 9-2X came about. As long as Subaru is making money off the parts, its seems like a good play for them. [quote]And in any event, the price differential isn't as large as you make it out to be. A Lexus IS300 is about the same price as a BMW 325, but with a bigger engine and more standard equipment. An Infiniti FX45 costs a lot less than a Porsche Cayenne S. A Lexus LS430 is going to come in at least 10 grand under a comparatively equipped Mercedes Benz S-class model (with fewer electrical gremlins to boot). [/quote] You are right about price difference between these manufacturers, but Porsche, BMW and Mercedes are also companies that can tack on an extra 5-10 grand to the sticker simply because of their name recognition. I just can't see myself ever purchasing one, but that's just me. (Okay, okay... yeah, if my ship came in, I WOULD buy the Porsche 911 Turbo, but hey :twisted: ) Good point though about the domestics. What GM has done to Pontiac since 1982 is downright shameful, but that's a whole 'nother subject.[/quote] Unless they have aquired more shares of Subaru, GM owns closer to 5-10% of Subaru.

[SUBE555]

20% non-voting IIRC. Supposed to be for parts connections with suppliers, but there is more to it we don't know.

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='SUBE555']20% non-voting IIRC. Supposed to be for parts connections with suppliers, but there is more to it we don't know.[/quote] You guys were right. [url]http://media.gm.com/corpcom/99news/g991210a.htm[/url] GM owns 20% of FHI. Non-voting shares thank God....

[SBT]

[quote name='Drift Monkey'][quote name='SUBE555']20% non-voting IIRC. Supposed to be for parts connections with suppliers, but there is more to it we don't know.[/quote] You guys were right. [url]http://media.gm.com/corpcom/99news/g991210a.htm[/url] GM owns 20% of FHI. Non-voting shares thank God....[/quote] $1.4B worth of shares and the largest shareholder slot does carry some clout though. I'm sure there are many "collaborative" meetings where it is stressed that FHI step up to the plate and deliver on their side of the bargain. I know that Tanakasan sees it as "healthy" to broaden their market in NA and Europe, but I can't help but believe that Subaru brand dilution is on the near horizon, notwithstanding. SBT

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='Subietonic'][quote name='Drift Monkey'][quote name='SUBE555']20% non-voting IIRC. Supposed to be for parts connections with suppliers, but there is more to it we don't know.[/quote] You guys were right. [url]http://media.gm.com/corpcom/99news/g991210a.htm[/url] GM owns 20% of FHI. Non-voting shares thank God....[/quote] $1.4B worth of shares and the largest shareholder slot does carry some clout though. I'm sure there are many "collaborative" meetings where it is stressed that FHI step up to the plate and deliver on their side of the bargain. I know that Tanakasan sees it as "healthy" to broaden their market in NA and Europe, but I can't help but believe that Subaru brand dilution is on the near horizon, notwithstanding. SBT[/quote] It's a non-voting share as noted. GM does not have any influence therefore I'm confident that the Subaru brand will not "dilude" anytime soon. The extent that they use their shareholder's power is that they share technologies amongst themselves for the most part (i.e. Saaburu).

[SUBE555]

Well, I've heard GM has had some things to say, we can only hope they don't get too involved. One key thing that was talked about was at the inception of the 7-pax, there was supposedly a big disagreement about the chassis and powertrain, Subaru wanted it's normal powertrain, boxer, symmmetrical AWD, while GM I believe wanted it fit with a V6 or perhaps the I6 from the trailblazer. There was enough disagreement that each went their seperate ways on the venture. Seems not so far apart after all with that Saab 9-6X XUV. ;)

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='SUBE555']Well, I've heard GM has had some things to say, we can only hope they don't get too involved. One key thing that was talked about was at the inception of the 7-pax, there was supposedly a big disagreement about the chassis and powertrain, Subaru wanted it's normal powertrain, boxer, symmmetrical AWD, while GM I believe wanted it fit with a V6 or perhaps the I6 from the trailblazer. There was enough disagreement that each went their seperate ways on the venture. Seems not so far apart after all with that Saab 9-6X XUV. ;)[/quote] I can agree with Subaru there. It wouldn't be a Subaru without those key components.

[SBT]

[quote name='Drift Monkey'][quote name='SUBE555']Well, I've heard GM has had some things to say, we can only hope they don't get too involved. One key thing that was talked about was at the inception of the 7-pax, there was supposedly a big disagreement about the chassis and powertrain, Subaru wanted it's normal powertrain, boxer, symmmetrical AWD, while GM I believe wanted it fit with a V6 or perhaps the I6 from the trailblazer. There was enough disagreement that each went their seperate ways on the venture. Seems not so far apart after all with that Saab 9-6X XUV. ;)[/quote] I can agree with Subaru there. It wouldn't be a Subaru without those key components.[/quote] Amen! I read with some concern, in another forum, GM's desire to have the first Subaru 7 passenger SUV out of the gate (in the fashion of the WRX morph to 9-2x) to be a SAAB and not a Subaru. What the heck is up with that? Is this true or just speculation? How will it be configured and will that future "dilute" Subaru's branding/image to have its configuration in the hands of non-Subaru techs and viewed as just another vehicle in the GM stable? I tell you, something's rotten in Denmark..err... Sweden. SBT

[Th3Franz]

I did some poking around on Acura's web site, and it sounds pretty cool. Has some cool features, but that's to be expected on a nearly $50k car. yikes. Oh, and its 300 HP has to haul around almost 4000 lbs! I laughed when I saw that.. yeah no wonder it needs the "SH AWD". :lol:

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='Th3Franz']I did some poking around on Acura's web site, and it sounds pretty cool. Has some cool features, but that's to be expected on a nearly $50k car. yikes. Oh, and its 300 HP has to haul around almost 4000 lbs! I laughed when I saw that.. yeah no wonder it needs the "SH AWD". :lol:[/QUOTE] "Sounds" is different from "is" Franz. :p\ Torque splits are as follows: [list] [*] During straight-line cruising and moderate cornering below about half throttle, up to 70 percent of the torque is delivered to the front wheels [*]In full-throttle straight line acceleration, up to 40 percent of the power is sent to the rear axle [*]In hard cornering, up to 70 percent of available torque goes to the rear wheels for enhanced chassis balance. Up to 100 percent of this torque can be applied to the outside rear wheel if the situation dictates. [/list] I still don't like this whole idea of electrical variating diffs...I'll stick to mechanical stuff myself...tried and tested....

[bluesuby]

What bothers me about the new RL is all the junk loaded up as standard features. I have no interest in a navigation system or satellite radio. Unfortunately, the RL buyer has no choice in selecting the options. I'd also be a little worried about hooking an AWD system to an automatic transmission with a family history of problems.

[Colonel Angus]

for those who've been keeping score, the SH-AWD technology in the new '05 has been implemented in the past - the prelude SH used this in it's infancy. i watched honda's promo video that outlined in somewhat of details of what the SH-AWD could do. the electromagnetic clutch system seems very cool. the technology and the implementation of this system is awesome, and the fact that they got it all to function together is even more amazing. but, as pointed out, of something should fail in the system, the cost of repairs could be potentially high. it's almost like it's overkill. if you think about it - if you get into a situation where you have 0 traction, the most sophisticated AWD system in the world cant save your ass from the wrath of mother nature.

[RobY]

They could have saved themselves the trouble and used torsens mechanical diffs all around. Instant action automaticly tourque biasing fully mechanical. No stupid microchips telling your car what to do.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Amen, brother. I wish legacies came with that setup. What sorts of diffs do the WRC guys use, on tarmac specifically?