Guest heightsgtltd Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 well, consider the majority of sales for the product. I dont have any numbers but if I had to take a shot I'd say the majority of buyers of the WRX get the turbo. and only a few really buy the wrx base and the wrx sti. (this is of course ignoring the factor of environment.. you may have more up north than here.) the exact opposite is true for the mazdaspeed and mazda platform for the 3 and 6. You see FAR FAR more base 3s and 6s thanyou see speed3s and speed6s. I think of the wrx more as a fanboi car with an econo counterpart than the opposite. Look at it this way.. even the base model WRX has the stiff chassis and AWD components that are required for its STI counterpart. The car is built down not built up like the ms3. The ms3 feels very economy when riding in it.The seats are hard and uncomfortable yet leather wrapped, the interior is noisy and uninsulated, the exhaust is loud and comes across as an afterthought. there is a big difference between the wrx and the ms3. Have you actually been inside a Mazda speed3 or Mazda 3 for that matter? The interior is WAY nicer than the impreza. Not even in the same category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 uh yes... the interior LOOKS nicer, but its not. The materials are low grade. The car is meant to look nicer than it is. The leather seats in the ms3 are hard as a rock, the road noise is intolerable.. especially in the rain.. omfg.. I have a friend that bought an MS3. I pulled hard for him to buy a wrx. He test drove both and I rode with him on both occasions. He chose the ms3 because of the perceived luxury of the car and the fact that the 5 door looked better than the wrx. After he picked me up from work one rainy day.. I would never buy one. You cant carry on a conversation in that thing.. and if theres standing water on the road? Good luck even yelling a conversation when you drive through it. Now he lives in Oregon and around christmas I called him. He was buried in a foot of snow and was really wishing he had went with the WRX. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heightsgtltd Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I think you must just be predisposed to hating everything and just being negative, because the interior, etc. is much nicer than the impreza/Sti. If you are comparing it to a legacy, you are on crack because it's not meant to compete as such and is in a different price range and class I love how you think the Impreza isn't an economy car somehow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The impreza is built DOWN, not up. Does this not make sense to you? Maybe you should spend some time in the ms3 and tell me what you think.. I spent a lot of time in it.. new cars get the designated driver for Friday nights you know.. I found the car intolerable as a passenger. It was fast sure, and the suspension was tight, but it still coudln't turn much faster than a pickup because of the understeer. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heightsgtltd Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I've been in one, and my point still stands. It's no Legacy, but its better than the impreza in many ways. This new one looks like a further improvement As for your built down argument, I hate to break it to you but the base impreza or even WRX is not the same as the STi. For that matter, the Sti is not the be all and end all of cars So while in theory, the WRX or base impreza benefts from the Sti shared platform and body you are making way more out of the connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'll give you that one for sure. The ms3 is no lgt. My car is way more comfortable to drive and ride in. I suppose the point i'm trying to make is that the sti and the turbo wrx in general arent necessarily pilots of the base impreza with power added. I mean look at it this way.. the mazda 3 has been around for quite a while.. the ms3 came later.. same with the neon and the SRT4. They took a base economy car, put some power parts on it and called it a day. Mazda was smart enough to bundle theirs with the premuim package. I dont mean to say the sti is all that great... but I do not beleive that the sti is a function of the impreza so much as the impreza is a function of the sti and wrx. the impreza is like the production roadrunner from the 60s/70s to its nascar companion.. (only a base model.) Or at least it used to be.. they build the race model first, and since the racer has to come from a production car.. they build the production car 2nd. The mazda 3 was never built with racing in mind.. then they built up the ms3 for people who wanted it for.. well.. whatever you use a FWD performance car for.. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HansGT Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chenc544 Posted February 4, 2009 Author Share Posted February 4, 2009 http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105188 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JessterCPA Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 the impreza is like the production roadrunner from the 60s/70s to its nascar companion.. (only a base model.) Or at least it used to be.. they build the race model first, and since the racer has to come from a production car.. they build the production car 2nd. I'm not sure if this is correct. The original Plymouth NASCAR cars were Satellite based, and only when they started learning aero tricks, did the Daytona, Superbird, and Charger 500 come out. Still mostly production car based though, but had the NASCAR tricks included in order to race them. Back then, they had to sell the car to race them. Not so anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 tbh I dont really have any data to back it either. Its a stretch of a comparison since the superbird was far closer to the nascar stock car than the impreza rally car is to the base model imprezza. but.. just because you dont have data doesn't mean you cant stand on an idea! "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zed 2.0 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 The impreza is built DOWN, not up. Does this not make sense to you? Maybe you should spend some time in the ms3 and tell me what you think.. I spent a lot of time in it.. new cars get the designated driver for Friday nights you know.. I found the car intolerable as a passenger. It was fast sure, and the suspension was tight, but it still coudln't turn much faster than a pickup because of the understeer. If it wasn't turning "faster than a pickup," it was the guy behind the wheel. Not the car. The speed3 gets around the 'ring as quickly as an S2000 and its stock suspension makes the LGT feel like a Camry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heightsgtltd Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 ^^ great theory No offense, but how do you know that the MS3 wasn't planned when they came up with the design of the Mazda3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 cos I own mazda! okok.. I concede my points are mostly speculation. "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urfsin Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Someone has been drinking from the Subaru coolaid fountain a little too much. Slide It Sideways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 uh yes... the interior LOOKS nicer, but its not. The materials are low grade. The car is meant to look nicer than it is. The leather seats in the ms3 are hard as a rock, the road noise is intolerable.. especially in the rain.. omfg.. I have a friend that bought an MS3. I pulled hard for him to buy a wrx. He test drove both and I rode with him on both occasions. He chose the ms3 because of the perceived luxury of the car and the fact that the 5 door looked better than the wrx. After he picked me up from work one rainy day.. I would never buy one. You cant carry on a conversation in that thing.. and if theres standing water on the road? Good luck even yelling a conversation when you drive through it. Now he lives in Oregon and around christmas I called him. He was buried in a foot of snow and was really wishing he had went with the WRX. I have noticed that about Fords and Mazdas. Mazda 3, 6, NC Miata, and Mustang. Through the window, or even with the doors open, and just looking in... the interiors look nice enough... Low gloss, grained surfaces, etc... they look like they might be nice to touch... But the instant you touch them, they are hard, cold, and uninviting. It trips your mind, because the tactile feedback doesn't match the visual impression. The molds are made well enough, but the plastic that they use in the molds is not so good. Maybe the '10 Mustang has improved that, I dunno. But I do agree, that the existing 3 aesthetically on the exterior beats Impreza with a stick. The big smiling maw, not so much... but two bad designs (Subie and Mazda) don't make a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerboa113 Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 drinking subaru koolaid? ok fine.. you'er right i'm wrong.. the wrx is just a worthless economy car and the ms3 is TEH GREETEST EEEVARRRRR... happy now? I dont own either... so I dont know where you're going with this. I had an extensive time to look at the ms3 as my friend really wanted my opinion. I actually drove him to the dealership to testdrive the wrx. THE reason he cited for choosing the ms3 over the wrx was fit and finish.. the leather seats LOOKED nicer, the guage cluster LOOKED nicer, the car had hids and LEDs.. it was only later that we got the real impression of the car. IWSS knows what I'm talking about.. its like hyundai's "leather" interior.. sure.. it looks kinda like leather.. but the longer you look and the closer you look.. the more you realize the quality simply isnt there. I was not all that impressed with the MS3 beacuse of this long look.. and the new smiling jokermobile front clip they are putting on is only going to worsen that. At least the current ms3 looks good... I wonder if mazda has a chimp doing their auto design.. so far the new mazda 6 has the bustline of a bra model, the rx8 is only driveable by people under 5' tall (unless you like sticking your head out of the moonroof like a powerwheels) and now the ms3 has a giant fish face smiling frontend. MADNESS I SAY! "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 As a mazda owner (NB miata) Mazda is losing it's zoom. Have been for a little while now. In addition to darkfox's comments... how can a company that says it has the soul of a sports car in everything it makes... Have 2 CUVs, 2 FWD car lines, and the only sports car they have looks like a bar of soap, and doesn't get the turbocharged motor, or a fixed-roof coupe variation. The Mazda RX8 is a good idea, ill-executed. I hate the WORDS "four door coupe" because it is an oxymoron. But I like the concept of sleek four door performance cars. They just shouldn't be called coupes, when they aren't. But the RX8 should have 4 front hinged doors, and a b-pillar. The freestyle doors aren't practical enough to be usefull (and they trap you between them in parking stalls), nor are they as structurally sound and allow the chassis to be lighter, like a 2-door car. When Mazda can design a classic roadster that looks like it should, and offer a turbocharged variant that Sol/Sky do... a 3-door fastback Kabura-like coupe variant of that, and a sleek 4 or 5 door sport sedan that is the right size for passengers and performance... all of which being RWD, and preferably with the option to choose between 4 and 6 cylinder piston engines, possibly turbocharged, and a rotary engine options, with manual or dual-clutch transmissions. Might even benefit from rear-mounting the transmissions as transaxles... (I respect that they stick to it, and it is an interesting engine with some valid engineering behind it, just as I really respect Subie and Porsche for sticking to boxer engines) That, and when they stop following the rest of the market toward ugliness, and actually get back to their interesting and modern, yet dignified design language... When they have done those things, I might believe their "zoom zoom", and might actually consider buying a new Mazda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Rotary engines arent used in sports cars for a couple reasons, Alot of maintanence is needed, gas mileage is BAD, they burn oil like there no tomorrow. If you wnat them to come out with another 250hp n/a rotary that would work but it still uses more gas then even there turbo 4s and gets less power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Are you kidding? Rotaries are ONLY used in sports cars for those reasons. Sports cars usually are higher maintenance due to being higher precision, and less compromised for "set it and forget it" type people. Gas mileage is usually not as large a concern for sports or racing cars, compared to mainstream cars. Oil consumption, as well is less of a concern, and more dutifully monitored by an enthusiast than a non-enthusiast. A rotary, by design, has to ingest oil to lubricate contact surfaces and the apex seals. There is no such thing as an oil-control seal on the apex seals of those rotors, yet the seals still have to be lubricated. Torque deficit makes rotaries ideal for light weight vehicles, that don't require as much torque to move, or as much inertia for the whole vehicle. Turbo 4s are good motors. But a rotary can spin effortlessly to the far side of 9000 RPMS, and is very power dense for it's size and weight, and it doesn't lose energy to inertia changes. Every time a piston hits TDC or BDC, it loses it's momentum, and changes direction, back and forth. Reciprocating parts bleed energy. A non-reciprocating assembly that just spins, maintains more momentum, and conserves more of the energy from combustion to kinetic energy output. A three-rotor ~2 liter rotary can return as much power, as smoothly or more smoothly as a small displacement 5-6 liter V12, which is the smoothest running piston engine design, and the rotary will rev higher. Rotaries have technical caveats, and those caveats make it undesireable in cars that AREN'T enthusiast cars. Most appliance drivers would not like, nor would they care for a rotary properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heightsgtltd Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Hate to burst the bubble again but Hyundai leather on the new models is FAR nicer than anything Subaru offers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05GT Guru Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Are you kidding? Rotaries are ONLY used in sports cars for those reasons. Sports cars usually are higher maintenance due to being higher precision, and less compromised for "set it and forget it" type people. Gas mileage is usually not a large concern for sports or racing cars. Oil consumption, as well is less of a concern, and more dutifully monitored by an enthusiast than a non-enthusiast. A rotary, by design, has to ingest oil to lubricate contact surfaces and the apex seals. There is no such thing as an oil-control seal on the apex seals of those rotors, yet the seals still have to be lubricated. Turbo 4s are good motors. But a rotary can spin effortlessly to the far side of 9000 RPMS, and is very power dense for it's size and weight, and it doesn't lose energy to inertia changes. Every time a piston hits TDC or BDC, it loses it's momentum, and changes direction, back and forth. Reciprocating parts bleed energy. A non-reciprocating assembly that just spins, maintains more momentum, and conserves more of the energy from combustion to kinetic energy output. Rotaries have technical caveats, and those caveats make it undesireable in cars that AREN'T enthusiast cars. Most appliance drivers would not like, nor would they care for a rotary properly. Ok but with the new mpg limits on cars can mazda really expect to release a 400-500hp rx car with a turbo rotary, it would be in the teens freeway and low low teens to high single digits city. When cars like the vette are making over 600 and getting 20+ freeway. It just doesnt seems like a good idea. And it probably would weigh mroe than the 2700-2900lbs the rx-7 did because more is demanded out of a higher end sports car in that dept these days. Even if i were rich i still woudl try to understand what im buying A 638hp car, that gets 24mpg freeway and needs far less work and moeny stuck into every year or everyother year or lets say a 500hp(which i dont think mazda will make anywhere near that much power) that gets 17-18 freeway and i need to have the seals replaced every 2-3 years. And dont say guys with enough money to buy a 100k car dont care about things like that, because i know owners of 100Kplus sports cars and believe me they complain when they have to go into the shop often. They think man i just paid 100k for this car and now i have to pay shit tons more for work all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
praedet Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 merged... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Genesis has put Hyundai on a bit of a new map, in terms of quality, and kudos to them fo it. Azera helped a little before that, as well. But they weren't always at that point. But the leather in the Legacy seems to be pretty nice, aside from the e-brake boot, and the steering wheel, which are showing some real wear... The seats though are holding up very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JessterCPA Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 In all honesty, in the grand scheme of things & in today's economic climate, who TF cares about the RX8? Mazda has made inroads with the 3 & 6 that GM & Ford (just Ford) would die for. They make a true Civic/Corolla and Camry/Accord fighter, something not many other companies have. To keep improving on your cash cows liek this is a very sensical & smart thing to do. The offering of a MS3 & MS6 helps the image of the brand overall. Once Mazda gets some cash back in it's account, then you may expect to see a new/improved RX. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest heightsgtltd Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 I'm not knockling the Legacy leather, but to suggest that the quality isn't there on the new hyundai's is perpetuating the BS stereotypes again. It wasn't that long ago that Subaru had leather that wasn't up to par. Why do people on here extend every courtesy to Subaru and then lambaste other brands for the same things that they give Subaru a pass on? I love my LGT, but I think Mazda is doing better interiors, at least from what we have seen that's currently out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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