New Legacy! "Ready When You Are"

[MJ in PA]

They didn't sell. Not enough people bought them to continue to carry them. Unfortunately Money Talks....

 

-mike

 

Really? I see tons of Legacy wagons in Outback form. In fact, I think I see more Outback wagons than Legacy sedans!

[SubieDriver]

Really? I see tons of Legacy wagons in Outback form. In fact, I think I see more Outback wagons than Legacy sedans!

 

Yes, but most people bought the Outback wagons, and very few bought the non-Outback wagons, thus the non-Outback wagon got discontinued, and Outbacks became wagon only (nobody bought the Outback sedans either).

[Paisan]

Very well said. It seems that claiming the "economies of scale" as a reason they can't afford to produce certain lines with certain options doesn't hold up as they add more complexity in the wrong places.

 

Ok you guys are right, you have all the answers and have looked at all the cost sheets etc.

 

I'm telling you how it is from several SOA sources. FHI charges SOA a boatload for every option they want to offer to the public, they have to pick and choose which ones they think will sell and have to make sure it fits the budget.

 

As for the BMW Mini comment from the other poster above, the mini is offset by BMW making a ton of money on cars like the 7 series which are cash cows.

 

-mike

[Paisan]

Yes, but most people bought the Outback wagons, and very few bought the non-Outback wagons, thus the non-Outback wagon got discontinued, and Outbacks became wagon only (nobody bought the Outback sedans either).

 

Exactly.

 

-mike

[BernardP]

Just two remarks:

 

Who, and WHY, did the 08/09 Legacy sedan tail lights get changed from the design that the rest of the world gets, to where the seam in the tail lights do NOT meet the seam in the trunk lid? That is irksome, and should be a no-brainer. The reflector is separate in the pockets of the rear bumper, so it isn't an SAE reflective regulatory issue, and the bulb arrangment (stop/tail, reverse, indicator) is the same. The color and reflector seam is just out of line with the bodywork, for some nutty reason. The fixture area is exactly the same, and the fixtures can be swapped for JDM, which does line up.

 

I too was disappointed by the new '08 taillight design. It put my own car next to it and my '05 taillights are at least one inch higher vertically. My theory is that Subaru made the taillights smaller to make the rear-end of the car appear bigger...

 

As for the separate reflector pockets in the bumper, they are useless. The point seems to make the overall look of the rear appear "busier" (in the Nissan and Acura style)

 

As for mandatory/unavailable options, you might be interested to know that you have it better in the US than us in Canada. But with all what you are saying regarding models and options, I'd say you are a perfect customer for a BMW . They are geared up to allow ordering a car to the exact specs one wants. Of course, everything is "à la carte" pricewise too.

[Amoxi]

Yes but from the sounds of it I'm about spot on. I know you're gagged so I'll take that as a "good guess sir" comment.

 

You can speculate, but don't speak for me please. My keyboard works just fine.

[1984trx200]

So you know stuff, but can't tell us anything...what's the point?

 

You can speculate, but don't speak for me please. My keyboard works just fine.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Ok you guys are right, you have all the answers and have looked at all the cost sheets etc.

 

I'm telling you how it is from several SOA sources. FHI charges SOA a boatload for every option they want to offer to the public, they have to pick and choose which ones they think will sell and have to make sure it fits the budget.

 

Budget, my ass. Somehow Subaru sells Legacys (Libertys) in a lot of other markets with a lot more options, for pretty much the same price. Canada can't be extrapolated, because it is a norAm-spec car built in indiana, and strangely WAY more expensive, even after the inversion swing in currency exchange rates between US and Canada.

 

It takes money to make money. You can't sell product you don't make, and don't offer. If SUBARU wants to sell cars, they NEED TO BUILD CARS, and build them the right way. Plenty of other companies can build, stock, and sell cars. Subaru needs to do it right, too.

 

Sometimes spending money can increase the bottom line, it is NOT a zero sum game.

 

I don't have to look at the financials to see mistakes and know that details can be handled much better than SOA seems to be handling them. And these are just that, DETAILS. I am not saying that they are offering the wrong products, I am saying they mangle things that shouldn't even be concerns. Who thinks it is a good idea to screw up tail lights???

 

Regarding that, @ BernardP...

The Legacy refresh brought about the new tail light design. I can understand that. The tail lights got shortened up from the bottom, the bumper cover changed to match. The JDM/ROW got either black plastic pockets in the rear bumper cover, or FULL REAR FOGLIGHTS in those pockets, and the pockets fit nearly flush to the bumper cover.

 

OK... So now it comes to adapting that new design to the North American market cars, and the bumper cover gets extended, as was also the case for the 05-07 cars. The pockets in the rear bumper get reflectors buried deep on all models. Not a black plug, nor real rear fog lights.

 

Looks like this:

http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/07_l.jpg

 

But here is where it gets nuts... They take the same new tail light dimensions as the JDM version, shorter up from the bottom, but they change the tooling. Now the seam between the red tail/brake light and the "white" reverse and indicator (amber bulb) section is moved down a couple of millimeters. Doesn't sound like much. The bulbs all function the same, and the new tail lights, JDM and USDM both fit in the same new shorter height space.

 

But what that does, is that it sets the seam in the tail lights BELOW the seam between the metal trunk lid, and the plastic rear filler panel, which holds the license plate. That seam did not change, and has been the same since this body style was designed for 04/05.

 

The needlessly mangled US tails: (thanks to Bbc84, from the Satin White Legacy Pics thread.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/Bbc84/Legacy%20GT/P1060938.jpg

 

So the JDM tail lights the seam is even all the way across the back of the car. On the US model, it looks clumsily designed, and the seam doesn't match. It seems trivial, but it COST something to change that tail light design from the JDM version that fits, to the USDM version that does not. Hardly seems like prudent budget management to me. Why not use the design that was designed correctly?

 

Now, to resume responding to Paisan's points...

 

I am sure your SOA sources all have very nice justifications that they have dutifully memorized, and practiced in front of a mirror. But that is all they are. Excuse reasons for why they have made odd decisions, that problably COST THEM MORE than if they had just done the right thing simply in the beginning. The tail lights are only one example of spending money to screw something up that started out fine.

 

How about not screwing up things that don't need to be screwed up? Like model-wide option availability like paint colors, NAV optional, etc. Or even things like putting a 5-speed auto, and 5 or 6 speed manual in the NEW forester? Who is doing SOA's product planning? It is going to be hard enough to sell new vehicles in this rough economy, especially SUVs as it is, without hampering competition by equipping it with old tech that most other companies have moved beyond. Most vehicles offer 5 forward gears, or more, in their automatic transmissions. And Subarus have historically not denied a manual transmission option on their turbo models until the '09 Forester.

 

Subaru of America would have us believe that these fairly basic auto-industry things are herculean tasks to undertake, and hugely expensive as well. Yet every other car in the price class usually don't have such perplexing detail issues. Most other cars have very logical option lists, color palettes, and other details, but suffer from mundane drivetrains or bad design from the drawing board, which are a different sort of problem. Subaru excels at getting the fundamentals right, where others can't match. But they are so bewildering with the option list sometimes, where other companies don't have a problem offering options and features.

 

Make your excuses. I am not buying it. It doesn't pass the smell test. It smells like someone at SOA ran roughshod over the details of NorAm production, and mucked up some of them, needlessly, and now it is set, so the spin and rationalizations come out.

[MJ in PA]

Yes, but most people bought the Outback wagons, and very few bought the non-Outback wagons, thus the non-Outback wagon got discontinued, and Outbacks became wagon only (nobody bought the Outback sedans either).

 

Right, so is there going to be a Legacy Outback wagon after the redesign?

[MJ in PA]

Wow, I didn't know the '08 rear fog lights were omitted in favor of cheap reflectors on the U.S. version. That's really lame. And the tail light thing is just stupid! A minor thing, but still, why would they do that?

[SubieDriver]

Right, so is there going to be a Legacy Outback wagon after the redesign?

 

The Outback has gone to *only* wagon, so that would be a "Yes". It's doubtful we'll see a standard Legacy wagon though, unless SOA changes their mind again.

[BigBad]

Alot of spin in this thread, not much meat based on the Ops orig post. Looks like the new toyabaru.

[Guest]

And the tail light thing is just stupid! A minor thing, but still, why would they do that?

 

 

Indeed. What is wrong here? Is the tail light culprit here or it's the trunk lid that is ? Is it possible they are using revised taillight design but old trunk lid design (did it change?) and hence the mismatch? Or simply they botched the taillight?

[smkinsally]

This new look of the legacy is so ugly! present models of subaru stick out visually from other cars and I feel this car looks to much like too many new cars coming from other brands. What really pisses me off about this design is I feel that toyota is to blame for this design of the new subaru cars, and toyota is trying to make more money off of the brand by designing new cars to all look the same. Look at toyota now, the camry, corolla and yaris all look like smaller versions of the same design. I hope this is not what is to become of subaru. If this is what is to become of subaru my LGT will be my only subaru!

[BernardP]

Thanks IwannaSportSedan for the taillights pics. You're right. This seems incomprehensible. Could there be some US regulation about min/max reflector height from the ground?

[MJ in PA]

The Outback has gone to *only* wagon, so that would be a "Yes". It's doubtful we'll see a standard Legacy wagon though, unless SOA changes their mind again.

 

Okay, that I can believe. So, there will be a wagon built on the new Legacy platform, but only available here in Outback form.

[MJ in PA]

Looks like a chop roof extended version of the WRX:

http://www.autospies.com/images/users/Casey54/C_IMPREZAWRX08_0.jpg

 

You know, that's not a bad looking car, except I don't like the diagonal seam between the front bumper shell and the fender.

[Paisan]

Wow, I didn't know the '08 rear fog lights were omitted in favor of cheap reflectors on the U.S. version. That's really lame. And the tail light thing is just stupid! A minor thing, but still, why would they do that?

 

No USDM Subaru has ever had rear fog lights.

 

-mike

[Paisan]

Budget, my ass. Somehow Subaru sells Legacys (Libertys) in a lot of other markets with a lot more options, for pretty much the same price. Canada can't be extrapolated, because it is a norAm-spec car built in indiana, and strangely WAY more expensive, even after the inversion swing in currency exchange rates between US and Canada.

 

It takes money to make money. You can't sell product you don't make, and don't offer. If SUBARU wants to sell cars, they NEED TO BUILD CARS, and build them the right way. Plenty of other companies can build, stock, and sell cars. Subaru needs to do it right, too.

 

Sometimes spending money can increase the bottom line, it is NOT a zero sum game.

 

I don't have to look at the financials to see mistakes and know that details can be handled much better than SOA seems to be handling them. And these are just that, DETAILS. I am not saying that they are offering the wrong products, I am saying they mangle things that shouldn't even be concerns. Who thinks it is a good idea to screw up tail lights???

 

Regarding that, @ BernardP...

The Legacy refresh brought about the new tail light design. I can understand that. The tail lights got shortened up from the bottom, the bumper cover changed to match. The JDM/ROW got either black plastic pockets in the rear bumper cover, or FULL REAR FOGLIGHTS in those pockets, and the pockets fit nearly flush to the bumper cover.

 

OK... So now it comes to adapting that new design to the North American market cars, and the bumper cover gets extended, as was also the case for the 05-07 cars. The pockets in the rear bumper get reflectors buried deep on all models. Not a black plug, nor real rear fog lights.

 

Looks like this:

http://carview-img01.bmcdn.jp/cvmaterials//tas/2008/take_car/subaru_legacy_b4/07_l.jpg

 

But here is where it gets nuts... They take the same new tail light dimensions as the JDM version, shorter up from the bottom, but they change the tooling. Now the seam between the red tail/brake light and the "white" reverse and indicator (amber bulb) section is moved down a couple of millimeters. Doesn't sound like much. The bulbs all function the same, and the new tail lights, JDM and USDM both fit in the same new shorter height space.

 

But what that does, is that it sets the seam in the tail lights BELOW the seam between the metal trunk lid, and the plastic rear filler panel, which holds the license plate. That seam did not change, and has been the same since this body style was designed for 04/05.

 

The needlessly mangled US tails: (thanks to Bbc84, from the Satin White Legacy Pics thread.)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v97/Bbc84/Legacy%20GT/P1060938.jpg

 

So the JDM tail lights the seam is even all the way across the back of the car. On the US model, it looks clumsily designed, and the seam doesn't match. It seems trivial, but it COST something to change that tail light design from the JDM version that fits, to the USDM version that does not. Hardly seems like prudent budget management to me. Why not use the design that was designed correctly?

 

Now, to resume responding to Paisan's points...

 

I am sure your SOA sources all have very nice justifications that they have dutifully memorized, and practiced in front of a mirror. But that is all they are. Excuse reasons for why they have made odd decisions, that problably COST THEM MORE than if they had just done the right thing simply in the beginning. The tail lights are only one example of spending money to screw something up that started out fine.

 

How about not screwing up things that don't need to be screwed up? Like model-wide option availability like paint colors, NAV optional, etc. Or even things like putting a 5-speed auto, and 5 or 6 speed manual in the NEW forester? Who is doing SOA's product planning? It is going to be hard enough to sell new vehicles in this rough economy, especially SUVs as it is, without hampering competition by equipping it with old tech that most other companies have moved beyond. Most vehicles offer 5 forward gears, or more, in their automatic transmissions. And Subarus have historically not denied a manual transmission option on their turbo models until the '09 Forester.

 

Subaru of America would have us believe that these fairly basic auto-industry things are herculean tasks to undertake, and hugely expensive as well. Yet every other car in the price class usually don't have such perplexing detail issues. Most other cars have very logical option lists, color palettes, and other details, but suffer from mundane drivetrains or bad design from the drawing board, which are a different sort of problem. Subaru excels at getting the fundamentals right, where others can't match. But they are so bewildering with the option list sometimes, where other companies don't have a problem offering options and features.

 

Make your excuses. I am not buying it. It doesn't pass the smell test. It smells like someone at SOA ran roughshod over the details of NorAm production, and mucked up some of them, needlessly, and now it is set, so the spin and rationalizations come out.

 

You can't compare Subaru a VERY niche market manufacturer to any of the more mainstream car lines in terms of scales of economy. Subaru is on the same line as Suzuki in terms of dealers, size, and breadth of their model lineup. I'd say Subaru is a lot better than Suzukis!

 

You are trying to compare SOA to BMW and that's just not fair to do.

 

Finally if you don't like the cars they are putting out, then vote with your pocketbook and buy something else. That's how a lot of Impreza owners of the pre-08 feel, yet the new impreza is outselling the old one. Forester is also outselling the previous generations as well.

 

The new Legacy will be bigger, and more powerful than the current one that I can assure you.

 

-mike

[IwannaSportSedan]

First off... you don't need to carbon copy my whole posts to respond. It only wastes page space, and download bandwidth.

 

You can either remove all but the points you wish to respond to, or just put a "@IwannaSportSedan" at the beginning to indicate you are responding to me in general.

 

You can't compare Subaru a VERY niche market manufacturer to any of the more mainstream car lines in terms of scales of economy. Subaru is on the same line as Suzuki in terms of dealers, size, and breadth of their model lineup. I'd say Subaru is a lot better than Suzukis! You are trying to compare SOA to BMW and that's just not fair to do.

 

Subarus are also competing with nicer cars than Suzuki, and if Subaru wants to sell, then they need to get things right. I am not saying that they need to spend money like Toyota. But Toyota is spending money on Subaru for some reason... Because there is value there.

 

I am NOT comparing them to BMW, and BMW isn't very big a company, either.

 

Every SINGLE ONE of my points is something Subaru could have done right, but chose to do wrong, with no difference to, or would have been better for the bottom line. NOT A SINGLE ONE OF MY POINTS would cause Subaru to go into the red, or drive the price of a Subaru car above what it already is.

 

Finally if you don't like the cars they are putting out, then vote with your pocketbook and buy something else. That's how a lot of Impreza owners of the pre-08 feel, yet the new impreza is outselling the old one. Forester is also outselling the previous generations as well.

 

The new Legacy will be bigger, and more powerful than the current one that I can assure you.

 

I FLEW HALF WAY ACROSS THE COUNTRY AT MY OWN EXPENSE TO BUY A SUBARU! Because I couldn't FIND one configured how I wanted any closer to my home.

 

I would say that is voting with my pocket book. What do you think?

 

Have you not read my posts? I have said repeatedly, and for YEARS, that Subaru is getting the basics more right than just about anyone else, short of Porsche. It is the details and execution that let the potential down, compared to the SAME PRODUCT that Subaru sells overseas. Not compared to BMW, or any other company.

 

If the new Legacy sucks, I won't be buying a new Legacy. How many people does Subaru think they can piss off? How many customers do they think they have to alienate?

 

They can't have it both ways. You say they are small, yet you tell me not to buy one if I don't like their cars. THEY NEED TO BE SELLING US CARS, if they want more market share. They are not telling ANYONE about Legacy, I do. Every time someone admires my car, and people do notice it, and ask what it is, because they can't tell. They've never heard of, or seen one before. Great job, there, Subaru.

 

They should GIVE me a Legacy in leu of payment of advertising that I do for them. I reach more people than their ad campaign, which isn't hard, considering they don't EVER advertize Legacy. (of course, I am using hyperbole to make a sarcastic and humorous point.)

 

Nobody else but we Subaru enthusiasts knows the Legacy exists. How are they going to sell them to anyone else? Do they want their market share to sink even further, or do they want it to grow?

 

If they want to stay in business, they had better be doing it better and cleaner than the established players. Excuses and mangled details don't cut it. Hiding behind "economies of scale" when SUBARU around the world offers a better product than they do in north america, is a worthless excuse.

 

This is comparing SUBARU TO SUBARU!!!

 

If they do what Mazda has done to the Mazda 6, making it bigger than the Camry, and blander than the rest of the world, I will have the same negative reaction, if not moreso, than I do to the mazda. IT SUCKS. This lowest common denominator crap has to stop.

 

Just because people buy things out of some necessity despite drawbacks, doesn't mean that is the best that the company can do, if they would sell a BETTER product, rather than merely a somewhat acceptable one, which seems to be happening in Mazda's case.

[Paisan]

I think we are on the same page, but rather than berrate subaru I work with them to make things better.

 

I happen to know though, that FHI BANGS SOA very hard for any options they want to sell in the USDM market. I'm not talking about a few pennies per option. This is why they need to choose them very carefully and can't ask for a ton of stuff from FHI on every model year.

 

As for a bigger Legacy, there are lots and lots of Subaru owners that have been lost due to the fact that they wanted an AWD Sedan that could fit their 4 or 5 person family with adult-sized kids. This is why the next one will be A6 sized to address this.

 

I guess since I've been around Subies for years starting with 2 XT6s, 1 SVX and countless others in the middle, I'm quite happy with the current legacy. I also saw what happened to the SVX and XT6 both of which had technology that was years beyond their competition (and frankly beyond what they offer now), they priced themselves out of the market on those 2 cars due to them being feature rich.

 

Unfortunately I don't think FHI is going to change their policy toward SOA in terms of charging them a boatload for every option they choose to have.

 

-mike

 

PS: You should have bought my 94 Legacy Sport Sedan Racecar that I just sold

[BernardP]

How about this one?

 

Also taken from NASIOC. From a japanese mag. See the reference to 2011 and not 2010.

[HangKen]

Never noticed the taillight thing......but wow, you are right!

[VtspecB]

How about this one?

 

Also taken from NASIOC. From a japanese mag. See the reference to 2011 and not 2010.

 

 

Does that say 'hybrid' on the rear door?

[iyalla]

Never noticed the taillight thing......but wow, you are right!

 

+1

 

WTF did they do that for? What a waste of time, materials and money. Was the JDM tailight so wrong for America? Unbelievable.

 

Maybe they used a USA supplier for the US tailight instead of importing, and the supplier (also a popular supplier of the big 3) screwed up the design mold:lol: