Brakeswap.com Performance Brake Kit for LGT!

[Gary Bechtold]

Hey guys. This kit sounds interesting but I can give a nice testimony to the rotors/pads, etc. I got the OE-Style non slotted rotors, Hawk HPS pads, the stainless steel lines and the GS 610 fluid. They have turned my Legacy GT Wagon around. I really love the feel now. If this kit allows cheaper costs on the pads, that's definitely a good thing for track guys. As I don't intend to track this car I just wanted reliable and improved braking for my car. Now that I live in the Hills of Austin Texas I can feel better about having fun in my wagon.

 

Now to do suspension!

[Paisan]

Can you post a price for people who don't need new rotors? (just got DBA 4000s a few months ago)

 

I second this, same deal here, already got DBA4000s.

 

-mike

[magnetic1]

$99 less. OR, keep them as spares, OR sell them at profit. Your choice.

 

Thanks Gary!

[Paisan]

the change in acceleration is where you are getting your overheating. Taking you back to high school physics:

 

F=MA (force = mass x accleration)

 

we know your car isn't gaining more mass as you are driving (if anything losing it due to fuel), it's your change in acceleration that's burning up your pads when you change your maps. The difference in force is in the difference of the acceleration. If you are still accelerating more over your stock map, then it's obviously your'e carrying more force into the corner. Your pads (HPS) can only do so much. In all honesty, there's no way a set of HPS will compare to me running a set of Carbotech XP16s.

 

Of the number of pads I've gone through and combinations of front/rear setups with pads, it's for certain that the GT needs brake ducts with the stock GT brake setup if you want to last longer in the hotter days even with track pads as high as what I run (had a set of XP16s up front and XP12s in the rear with DBA4000s in 95F and still had fade after 10 minutes of 9/10ths driving at VIR Full.. it's worse at summit point after 7 minutes due to the braking intervals being so much closer). I think I'm as close as you can get for a joe-shmoe testing these brakes. I'm just as another customer as you are and I like to run a product that would not only take a beating, but allow me to be on track for another 5 minutes to get the fastest lap time if I can. Any thing higher in terms of a more controlled performance then I need to be part of a privateer racing team and run the car in SCCA World Challenge somehow to get you more precise hard data to look at. But for now, from what I have used, tested and tried, the vendors I deal with here all have the same goal: to get the most cost effective product that have the most significant performance gains for any high performance demanding driver. It's obvious that if anyone want performance to be their ultimate priority, they wouldn't blink at dropping $10k~$15k on some Alcon-based kit and go from there to fit their race rules.

 

So far, I'm very happy to report in a small glimpse that these calipers fit over the GT rotors with no need to relocate anything, which means by a lot of race rules for stock class or street touring class types that these calipers are legal (check your race rules be sure). Pad selection will be the next big issue when it comes to keeping the pads from overheating (which I will talk to Racecomp Engineering/GTWorx to see if I can get a set of their brake duct adapters to work with the Wilwoods and even the stock calipers and have plenty of air to pump through and cool the brakes off better without sacrificing the stock fog lights).

 

 

 

 

OT:Paisan, we've met before (on and off track, i remember a time when I saw you off-roading it in the older legacy GT at VIR when you were behind me for a NASA event). I assure you that my knowledge that I'm sharing is legit coming from a HDPE instructor and driver to another.

 

Agreed with all you are saying. Yup the good old 94 Legacy SS. Converted that to a race car and sold it about 4 months ago.

 

I now have HP+ all around with the stock calipers and I'm gonna give them a shot at Watkins this weekend with the Stage 1 Map. If they don't hold up, then I guess brake ducts will be next in order. After that I may be interested in these calipers. Thanks for the help!

 

-mike

[iamboon]

when will these be available?

[magnetic1]

when will these be available?

 

Im hoping 1-2 weeks. We are taking pre-orders now. $1099 intro price

 

Retail will be $1299.

 

Credit cards wont be charged until they ship.

[AirSix]

1) Ideally blank if you have the right pad compound. The slots will only wear the pad down faster.

 

2) That's the one beauty of this kit and our OE-type rotors. Cheap replacement. I typically dont replace mine until they start cracking.

 

+1. magnetic hooked me up with lines, fluid and pads for all four corners. I bought OEM replacement rotors for the fronts and went through an HPDE and a lapping day. I started to experience some fade late in the day but only after several hot lap sessions that went off without issue. OEM is the way to go for the weekend warrior. Bump for a great vendor!

[caramall2]

And probably the most important question that affects fade...which pads were you using?

[AirSix]

And probably the most important question that affects fade...which pads were you using?

 

Hawk HPS. Def could have gone more aggressive. magnetic quoted me on the next level of pads that were still doable for a commute but the product name escapes me...

[Scooby2.5]

Actually the dust boots are a much smaller issue than most make it out to be. If the piston is made from higher quality materials such as stainless steel (most calipers use aluminum w/ a rubber dust boot), it can hold up very well. We've seen many Wilwood caliper kits for numerous cars for many years that continue to be trouble free. If you look carefully at calipers with dust boots, they are far from being hermetically sealed.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102268&highlight=wilwood

 

To back this statement up:

 

After speaking to a major performance brake supplier, the following comments were offered when talking about dust boots:

 

"This is a rubber concertina style boot which snaps into the caliper around the piston or pistons and onto the piston protrusion itself. This “bellows” configuration allows the piston to move in and out of the caliper without contamination from the environment. Road grime, dirt and especially moisture can corrode production type caliper pistons leading to premature failure of the piston seals rendering the caliper inoperable.

 

Vehicle manufacturers typically design their products around a minimum criteria list which almost never includes special materials for components such as caliper pistons. Many production style caliper pistons are therefore aluminum or other easily corrodible metal for obvious reasons, not least of which is cost. It is less expensive by far to make aluminum pistons and rubber boots than to make stainless steel pistons for example. A huge percentage of production car calipers HAVE to have dust boots or they may not last to the end of the warranty.

 

Aside from some of the obvious weight and capacity drawbacks of production calipers, dust boots can be a hazard to high performance drivers. Brake components are designed to convert all that motion to heat energy and then dissipate that heat. The heating and cooling cycle occurs with higher frequency under spirited, or race driving conditions where it is not unusual to develop enough heat to make rotors glow red hot. Radiant and conducted heat developed under hard driving conditions can easily heat the calipers to the point where the brake fluid boils and the boots burn. Dust boots are not installed on true racing calipers.

 

The best solution for safe and reliable high performance calipers is to eliminate the rubber boots, build pistons from good quality, non-corroding stainless steel and make sure the caliper bores are anodized. We have been supplying such calipers for high performance street and race use for nearly 20 years without complaint. Our experience has been that companies who do build aftermarket calipers with dust boots make an issue of this fact to justify the exorbitant cost of their products.

 

If we examine the dynamics of caliper function we see that the pistons actually, stay pretty well where they are and the brake dust coats that part which protrudes from the caliper body. A typical brake application cycle sees about 0.20 mm (1/5 mm) of travel per piston. There is about 3 or 4mm of piston bore outboard of the hydraulic "O" ring before the piston sees the outside atmosphere. In that area the clearance between the piston and bore is around 0.075mm. It takes a pretty small dust particle to travel all the way to the hydraulic O-ring and when it gets there it's typically too small to create any real havoc. So, you get dirt building up on the exposed part of the pistons and that's about it.

 

The problem develops when it's time to change pads and your production oriented brake technician simply presses the pistons back in with a clamp and shoves all that dirt into the cylinder past the seal. The "trick" is to scrub the piston protrusion with a stiff tooth brush and soapy solution, then blow dry BEFORE you shove them back into the caliper...

The down side is that it takes and extra 30 minutes (on a bad day) to change pads which you may have to do every 50,000 km or so on a street driven vehicle. Amortized over a year or two that's not a big chunk of your life or your paycheck."

 

-D. Armstrong

[magnetic1]

Hey Greg, this is what Ive been trying to tell people for some time now. Thanks for the link.

 

Even without "high performance" track driving, you can get the OEM boots to wear, crack or melt in street use too.

 

The Wilwood Superlites are a stainless steel piston designed for the rigors of race and street use.

[Scooby2.5]

Installed this kit on my Outback XT and here is a link to the write up:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102549

[PeterJMC]

Hey VT,

 

No rears at the moment. We really wanted to get going on the fronts first. The tooling required to make brackets for the rear for such a low volume run would end up costing quite a bit.

 

Plus it would require tons of testing to get the bias, brake forces, etc right since it would require much larger rotors.

 

My main "turn-on" with this kit is the super wide variety of pads available. Especially if you track the car. Youre talking track pads that are half the price of normal LGT track pads!!! Hawk HT10s run only about $130! DTC70s are $165ish! Similar pricing for PFC01, etc!

 

For street pads, pricing is on par w/ the stock stuff though. Maybe $5-$10 less. But again, lots more options on pad manufacturers.

 

Any update on the rear calipers? Has any testing been done on this?

[magnetic1]

We've put off rear in the meantime. We need to move more front kits first and make sure there is enough demand to go through the whole process to develop rears.

[SBT]

I heard this somewhere..."If you build it, they will come".

[magnetic1]

I heard this somewhere..."If you build it, they will come".

 

I wish it were that easy... too bad I dont get a federal bailout if I fail like GM, Chrysler, suppliers, etc etc.

 

They built many, few came, and now get money to build more.

[rexnebula]

Count me as someone who would like to buy the front & rear combo if/when developed. I upgraded my calipers, lines and pads (through you, thanks!) last year before the fronts were released. If the fronts had been released at the time I would have purchased them. Now I'll likely wait until a full set is available.

[Paisan]

Any thoughts on if this setup will help fix my cracking of rotors after about 3 track days? I started with HPS and stock rotors, moved up to HP+ and DBA 4000s and this helped slightly, but after 3-4 days on track (and I usually only do about 2-3 sessions) they are cracking on me still. From here I'm debating, something like these calipers or Brembos or I may first try brake ducts. Nothing seems to really help the problem and I don't want to throw good money after bad.

 

Thanks for the insight guys.

 

-mike

[magnetic1]

Any thoughts on if this setup will help fix my cracking of rotors after about 3 track days? I started with HPS and stock rotors, moved up to HP+ and DBA 4000s and this helped slightly, but after 3-4 days on track (and I usually only do about 2-3 sessions) they are cracking on me still. From here I'm debating, something like these calipers or Brembos or I may first try brake ducts. Nothing seems to really help the problem and I don't want to throw good money after bad.

 

Thanks for the insight guys.

 

-mike

 

Mike, what kind of cracking? Hairline cracks? or CRACK cracks?

 

Depending on the type of crack, Id definitely try ducting first. Calipers wont solve cracking issues, they would give you better feel, modulation and repeatability.

 

If hairline cracks, I wouldnt worry too much about it. Got any pics?

[Paisan]

On the OEMs they went right to the pie-shaped crack from top to bottom. So far on the DBA's they started as hairlines and are basically in the center of the rotor surface in a radial pattern, getting larger with each successive track day or spirited drive I do... I'll snap some pics next time I have a wheel off.

 

-mike

[magnetic1]

On the OEMs they went right to the pie-shaped crack from top to bottom. So far on the DBA's they started as hairlines and are basically in the center of the rotor surface in a radial pattern, getting larger with each successive track day or spirited drive I do... I'll snap some pics next time I have a wheel off.

 

-mike

 

Pics would be good. The pie-shaped crack is not good. Ive got a few customers running our OE-type blank and slotteds using Carbotech XPs with no cracking. Hawk's are a little rougher on pads, but still shouldnt be cracking the rotors unless something is up.

 

Was this during this summer? Watkins? NJMP? Pocono?

[Paisan]

Yeah it was during the summer, combination of Pocono for the OEM frontrotors Watkins was DBA's in the front and the OEM rears got cracked at Watkins, the DBAs were a result of the 2 days at Watkins and 2 days at NJMP 1 of which was all rain, so that day I wasn't nearly as hard on em. Car has stock power, but as a race car driver, I do push it to and past it's limit both on and off the track.

 

-mike

[magnetic1]

Yeah it was during the summer, combination of Pocono for the OEM frontrotors Watkins was DBA's in the front and the OEM rears got cracked at Watkins, the DBAs were a result of the 2 days at Watkins and 2 days at NJMP 1 of which was all rain, so that day I wasn't nearly as hard on em. Car has stock power, but as a race car driver, I do push it to and past it's limit both on and off the track.

 

-mike

 

That sounds kind of odd.

 

Cracks typically develop with big temperature gradient changes. Still seems weird. PM/email me some pics and Ill try to take a guess.

 

Do you also use those HP+ on the street?

[Paisan]

Yes, HP+ on the street as well.

 

I had HPS on with the OEM rotors for a few days at pocono, but then switched over to HP+ after a wee bit too much fade/smoking of the HPS on the North course.

 

-mike

[magnetic1]

Yes, HP+ on the street as well.

 

I had HPS on with the OEM rotors for a few days at pocono, but then switched over to HP+ after a wee bit too much fade/smoking of the HPS on the North course.

 

-mike

 

Mike, we need to get you proper equipment