RangerMan Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I was going through a rough patch with my ride and didn't enjoy it a whole lot. Just something about it bugged me. I had upgraded the brakes and tires and that helped a bit. I recently got it tinted with some nice metallic tint and that also helped. What really helped though was taking it to the track. I know that I wrote that in a couple other posts. I know that at the road course as a novice it is really driver skill instead of vehicle ability but the LGT handled very well. That said, the car (and I) were handily faster than an Acura TL. The Acura TL was just slow and always looked a little unsettled. Considering it weighs a couple hundred pounds more doesn't help. The Acura was also on stock tires. Still, they advertise the car as somewhat of a sports sedan and I know from people that have purchased the car that they like driving it in traffic. But when the chips are down, the car was terrible on the track, as a novice I almost lapped the Acura. Now a better driver in the Acura would have gone faster than me, but Novice vs. Novice there was no comparison. So if you want a well built large fancy Accord I would say Acura, but the Legacy after I started to get comfortable more than held it's own against the other cars out there. Now I am very happy with the Legacy...the driver still needs a lot of work though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexylegacy Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Front-wheel-drive FTL! In my opinion, the Acura has a more refined interior and is quieter and mroe comfortable, but it just doesn't have the fun-factor of the LGT or even necessarily the looks. The only thing I will say however, is that I drove a TL-S and it was fun. The interior is superb, the car is pretty fast and the exhaust sounds awesome, but the damn traction control kept kicking in with the stupid FWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I just picked up my LGT last June. The TL-S was one of the cars I was considering at the time (my previous 2 cars were Acuras). The fit and finish and feeling of "solidness"/integrity of the Acura is FAR superior to the LGT. I like the looks better also, actually. A lot more amenities too. But the LGT was cheaper, has AWD, and had more power potential so it was actually a no-brainer to get the LGT. Every time I drive my wife's '04 Accord I am reminded how far the LGT is behind Honda/Acura in fit/finish, especially the interior, body panel gaps, etc. My '05 LGT My '07 Supercharged Shelby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 This is very interesting to me. My roomate and I have been going back and forth since we first met 3 years ago. I have always argued that his Legend was way overpriced considering that my $27-28k Subaru has many of the same features minus the V6 and folding mirrors. Two entirely different cars I realize, but I have a hard time defining Acura as luxury when companies like Audi or Lexus do it so much better. That being said, I will admit the I like the TL much better than the TSX, RL, and ill fated RSX. However, its lack of AWD has perplexed me for awhile and Ive been wondering why Honda didn't throw their already developed hybrid setup from the Accord in there and grab some more business from buyers defecting to Lexus. Perhaps their lack of aggressiveness is the reason why they are far behind Lexus who hasn't been around as long as Acura has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reason22 Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 FWD cars on the track have always baffled me (many things do). Using the same contact patch to turn and accelerate, at the most critical time (corner exit) is just absurd! I've driven exactly one FWD car in my life (Audi A4 CVT), and it was awful. Even at regular road speeds, it understeered so bad I was getting passed by children on tricycles in corners. I'm not at all surprised the Legacy trounced a TL on the track. That TL had to poke around every corner, and only hit the gas when straight. And even then the poor thing had less oomph that an LGT. No contest. Anyway, I'm just wasting time because it's snowing outside. Bah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Ah, you should try driving the Honda Prelude. Greatest FWD vehicle ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reason22 Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I like the Prelude, without ever having driven one. Regardless of that, FWD is still using the limited traction of the front tires to both turn and accelerate. Not good for track activities! Nissan even went so far as to experiment with rear-wheel steering (Super HICAS!)...partially I suspect to try and gain some advantage trail-braking into a corner. Front tires brake, rear tires start the car turning...more traction where it's needed FTW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reason22 Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 On a side note, I have great respect for the Honda engineers and factories. I've only ever owned a Honda CBR600F2 motorcycle...but that thing was amazing. For $9,000 you got a silky-smooth engine that could run forever at 12,000rpm. I still can't imagine getting that kind of balance and tolerances in a production engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sexylegacy Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I like the Prelude, without ever having driven one. Regardless of that, FWD is still using the limited traction of the front tires to both turn and accelerate. Not good for track activities! Nissan even went so far as to experiment with rear-wheel steering (Super HICAS!)...partially I suspect to try and gain some advantage trail-braking into a corner. Front tires brake, rear tires start the car turning...more traction where it's needed FTW! What front-drive nissans had Super-HICAS?? I can only remember the 240sx and 300zx having super-HICAS. I don't think any Sentra SE-R's or 200SX SE-R's had it. Obviously the Skyline had it too, but it was AWD or RWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chubien Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I can give first hand advise on this comparison since I currently own both an 01 Acura CL-S and the 08 LGT, the CL is simply a sportier 2 door TL. My Acura is basically stock except for Short Intake, Vtech Controller (that doesn't add much if anything), Mufflers, AEM pulley kit, Tein Basics Coilovers and Wheels. Also my CLS is automatic. At first I was on the fence with which car performed better as they are so different, the Acura has endless gears and a top-end that just never ends (I think the short RAM has alot to do with this). But now that my LGT is stage1 it is definately faster all around except maybe for top speed. It is much easier to go fast in the Acura, the power is everywhere with the Extra kick of the VTECH at 4800 that is quite significant, problem is that the car is geared to go 300mph and VTEC is almost unusable apart from short busts in second and early in third by then you are way over the speed limit. Second gear hits 80mph and third 110mph, top speed is in 4'th and 5'th is good for cruising on the highway at 80mph at 2000RPM and the car then achieves 40mpg (imperial gallons) ... quite remarkable and a good 10mpg or more better than the LGT. The handling of the Acura is good but only because I have a coilover suspension setup with bigger sways, the car still suffers tremendously from that super heavy front end and FWD. Handling is nowhere comparable to even a stock LGT I can just imagine a heavier TL with stock suspension!! I had a 0-90mph run with a 2005-2006 LGT wagon once, he took one car length on me initially and I slowly gained it back, I would have likely passed him if we kept going. My car probably makes 30-40HP more than stock (that would make my car around 300HP), he was probably stock at 250HP, we probably weigh the same but he had a stick. I will agree with Legend that the finish of the Acura is by far better than the LGT, but the reliability of the big acura is not has good as one would expect from a Honda. On these motors you will likely need to change the crank seal on the tranny side, went twice on my CL and once on my Odyssey (same motor), big job. I'm on tranny #4 on the CL in 90K miles (yes that is not a typo). Automatics in Honda V6s suck. Brakes are also garbage, I never go one year before having to change front and rear rotors because they are warped, and no I am not hard on brakes. It seems you have to change a motor mount every year, by the time you make it around it's time to start all over again and they aren't cheap. Anyhow I am hoping to get more reliability from the Suby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerMan Posted March 23, 2008 Author Share Posted March 23, 2008 I have to agree. The Acura from an overall, non-enthusiast viewpoint is a nicer car. Fit and finish on the Hondas are what every automaker on the planet should strive for. However, as they say the proof is in the pudding and that car was downright slow on the track. After driving on a track I also determined that I would never want a FWD. Out of 100s of cars at this event, I think I counted under 10 FWD cars, possibly less. The fastest cars were all RWD. This track event more of less solidified how much I like the Legacy and that I made the right choice 3 years ago. Like many on the board I cross shopped the Acura TL, but it was more expensive and FWD...fine for the street, terrible at the track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reason22 Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 What front-drive nissans had Super-HICAS?? I can only remember the 240sx and 300zx having super-HICAS. I don't think any Sentra SE-R's or 200SX SE-R's had it. Obviously the Skyline had it too, but it was AWD or RWD. Oooooohhh...yeah I see your point. Yeah Super-HICAS with a RWD car doesn't make much sense for my argument, does it? No more sense than a FWD track car, heh heh. My apologies. On a side note, I thought the 200SX was RWD? Not that it has anything to do with this thread. And I believe the Japanese market Silvia (200SX) on the S13 platform in 88-89 had HICASII, which later morphed into Super-HICAS. Datsun trivia. Still RWD, still no bearing on this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reason22 Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 Whoops, I confused myself. Super HICAS in RWD cars make sense...because you're braking with the fronts, steering with the rears. Doesn't help much on corner exit, but I mentioned in my post it was for late-entry trail braking. Actually I think Nissan tried it to improve lane-change feel and general agility on the street. Probably not a track-oriented thing at all. My overall point was just to emphasize that using a contact patch for multiple purposes is always a trade-off. Brake/turn, accelerate/turn, whatever. That's why GP Moto racing is so exciting. They're always using the tire for two jobs, and right on the edge, so the bikes are always squirming around on the edge of catastrophic traction loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommypenguin Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 The new SH-AWD turbo TSX FTW. But as for the FWD acura's, I love the interior, it is much better made, no rattles. As for the crappy auto's dyno, it is an epidemic and it sucks. On my v6 accord, I also would have to replace rotors once a year from warping even with upgraded rotors. Honda made the front brakes way to small with all that weight in the front. My car handled very well on 18's with sticky tires and my comptech springs I had. But if I put comparable mods on the lgt, it would handle better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 There is no SH-AWD Turbocharged TSX. It is non-turbo, 210hp, and FWD only. and styling-wise, it is uglier than previous, just like the recently shown RL upgrade. Acura has fallen off the wagon, and it is getting worse, not better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLegacy99 Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 You mean 201 hp with the redesign and 205 hp currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garandman Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 /// I will agree with Legend that the finish of the Acura is by far better than the LGT, but the reliability of the big acura is not has good as one would expect from a Honda. On these motors you will likely need to change the crank seal on the tranny side, went twice on my CL and once on my Odyssey (same motor), big job. I'm on tranny #4 on the CL in 90K miles (yes that is not a typo). Automatics in Honda V6s suck. Brakes are also garbage, I never go one year before having to change front and rear rotors because they are warped, and no I am not hard on brakes. It seems you have to change a motor mount every year, by the time you make it around it's time to start all over again and they aren't cheap. Anyhow I am hoping to get more reliability from the Suby Do you think it is because of how hard you drive them? We have two Accord V6's with 65,000 and 60,000 miles. The OEM brakes lasted about the same as any other car, and we certainly haven't had any transmission problems. They are the ultimate blender. The TL interior is nice. They really seem to be long distance cruisers with good 8/10ths performance. Given the way the Hondas light up the front wheels in wet conditions, I wouldn't want to be driving a FWD car hard with any more power than they have. Who Dares Wins スバル Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chubien Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 ^^ I don't know about the Accord but the brakes on the CL aren't very good. It's a common problem with the second generation CL/TL and well documented on acurazine.com. Keep in mind that I did not replace my brakes with quality OEM or performance aftermarket since they did not seem to last any longer. What people have done is swap with NSX calipers or even 92-95 Legend Calipers but you're still stuck with the warping rotors. BBK seems to be the only good solution. The tranny was also a known defect with the CLS, has a matter of fact Honda extended the warranty twice on these cars and is now 110K miles/8 years. The problem with these trannys is third gear shifts that overheat the clutch materials and it starts disinterating into the fluid ... you know the rest .... people with tranny issues are usually people that do alot of city driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwannaSportSedan Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 You mean 201 hp with the redesign and 205 hp currently. either way, a hell of a lot less power than a Legacy GT, and no AWD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerMan Posted March 24, 2008 Author Share Posted March 24, 2008 I think that there is a fundamental buyer's perception difference between the Acura line and say a Legacy GT buyer. The Acura buyer is more concerned with fit/finish and Honda-ness. The LGT buyer is going to be more of an enthusiast looking at performance per dollar (this is based on my "un-limited" GRP LGT which cost about $7-8k less than a TL) and ability to upgrade. The Acura TL and its little brother TSX seem like nice daily drivers, but on the track they have everything going against them. The TL is too heavy. TSX is underpowered. Both have the wrong wheels doing all the work. The LGT already has a fairly poor weight/power ratio and those two Acuras are even worse. It all adds up to pushing into the corners, requiring you to scrub more speed, and then lacking the power to make it up on exit. I posted in general chat how going to the track has changed my whole perception on automobiles and this is no different. The LGT at least can be upgraded into a fairly serious track vehicle but still streetable for not a ton of money. The Acura vehicles simply have physics going against them and to turn one of them into a serious track car would be at an extreme detriment to the street. Now maybe next track day there will be a TL there again and I can make some more observations. FWIW there was not a single TSX at the track, and only 1 integra which was a 1st gen, with a VERY aftermarket suspension and a gutted interior driven by an expert driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawl Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 I was going through a rough patch with my ride and didn't enjoy it a whole lot. Just something about it bugged me. I had upgraded the brakes and tires and that helped a bit. I recently got it tinted with some nice metallic tint and that also helped. What really helped though was taking it to the track. I know that I wrote that in a couple other posts. I know that at the road course as a novice it is really driver skill instead of vehicle ability but the LGT handled very well. That said, the car (and I) were handily faster than an Acura TL. The Acura TL was just slow and always looked a little unsettled. Considering it weighs a couple hundred pounds more doesn't help. The Acura was also on stock tires. Still, they advertise the car as somewhat of a sports sedan and I know from people that have purchased the car that they like driving it in traffic. But when the chips are down, the car was terrible on the track, as a novice I almost lapped the Acura. Now a better driver in the Acura would have gone faster than me, but Novice vs. Novice there was no comparison. So if you want a well built large fancy Accord I would say Acura, but the Legacy after I started to get comfortable more than held it's own against the other cars out there. Now I am very happy with the Legacy...the driver still needs a lot of work though! i would say this really isnt a fair comparison. 1 car is a sports sedan. the other is a sports sedan in name only (if that. i doubt acura even calls it a sports sedan). the TL is a poser. it's an overgrown accord with little to no sporting intentions. if you buy a TL to track you should get your head checked. this is akin to a Gixxer guy bragging about how he lapped a vespa on the track. car for sale. PM me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerMan Posted March 27, 2008 Author Share Posted March 27, 2008 Acura certainly makes an impression that the TL is a sports sedan. TL owners that I know all seem to think of their car as a sport sedan. When you go to their website and hit "compare" two of the three cars it defaults to are a BMW 328i and a MB C230 Sport Sedan. (the third car was a very nice couch - Lexus ES 350) I won't deny that they are not very similar, but a lot of members, myself included, cross-shopped Acura before choosing a '05+ LGT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gire Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Ah, you should try driving the Honda Prelude. Greatest FWD vehicle ever. No, the Integra type R is the best FWD drive car ever. But nice to see we are both agreeing on the Honda aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawl Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 No, the Integra type R is the best FWD drive car ever. But nice to see we are both agreeing on the Honda aspect. i believe the mazdaspeed protege was up for consideration on this one also. car for sale. PM me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawl Posted March 27, 2008 Share Posted March 27, 2008 Acura certainly makes an impression that the TL is a sports sedan. TL owners that I know all seem to think of their car as a sport sedan. When you go to their website and hit "compare" two of the three cars it defaults to are a BMW 328i and a MB C230 Sport Sedan. (the third car was a very nice couch - Lexus ES 350) I won't deny that they are not very similar, but a lot of members, myself included, cross-shopped Acura before choosing a '05+ LGT. that's marketing. its how they get you to buy things you dont need, or dont want. either way you bought the right car if you're going to go to the track. car for sale. PM me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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