Opinion's on 08 Legacy 3.0R

[Garandman]

Lol just because they dont have a 5eat on there dyno doesnt mean a 5eat has never been dynoed. ///

Great, find one, then we can overlay the curves and stop the BS. That's one reason I did it in the first place. I meant to do it again (using 93 Octane, and with a bunch of miles on the car) so if anyone with a stock 2.5T 5EAT wants to meet me at TDC we can do them back to back for all the world to see.

 

Hopefully this time he'll go above 6,000 rpm, since the redline is 7,000.

[spraay]

All,

 

I may be a bit late to this thread, as it seems to have degenerated into a Turbo vs. NA argument. I'll offer my observations as the owner of a new 3.0R, in response to the original post.

 

I've got an '08 3.0R Limited in Obsidian Black Pearl, and I've been driving it for about three weeks. I really like this car. It is a daily driver, not a race car, and will not be modified in any serious way. I've had no problems with it, even the interior trim seems relatively tight and quiet. I get about 24MPG average at 40% City and 60% highway driving. If I'm just running on the highway I get about 27MPG.

 

It's been pretty cold here in Michigan since I got the car, so I expect the mileage will pick up a bit when it gets warmer. The car handles quite well in snow, but be warned, with the rear-wheel bias in the AWD, the back end will come around if you do something silly, even with the VDC turned on. The car does recover nicely once the nanny figures out you're getting loose.

 

I do have one minor criticism. I would have preferred an option for 17" wheels and higher profile tires. The rough roads here in Michigan seem to be hard on the low profile tires. I know I could remedy this after-market, but I'm not sure it's a huge problem yet.

 

If you are looking for a daily driver that looks sharp, handles well, and has a bit of 'get-up-and-go' when you want to get on it, this model delivers, and does so very smoothly. I'd also submit that it's a bargain given what you pay for the feature list and product quality. If you want all-out performance, and an MT, the SpecB may well be the way to go. There have always been horses for courses, and this one suits me just fine.

 

SP

[...YKW]

You turbo guys think that the only reason that people buy these cars is for performance. I bought my 3.0 because it's a lot nicer inside, it came with the nav and I like the 18" wheels. I don't have the option to not get to work on a snow day so I like the all wheel drive (and that has been amazing for me). I have always had manual tranny cars but now I drive the capitol beltway every day (read: I sit in a lot of traffic) so an auto is even better for me. I've had my car for 6 months now and it has about 12k miles on it so using regular gas is a huge plus for me. I have been extremely happy with my 3.0 and I would tell all you turbo guys to open your minds to the idea that performance isn't the only reason that people buy cars.

 

So if your criterion for purchasing the 3.0R was:

-Automatic Transmission

-Leather Interior

-Navigation

-Being able to use regular fuel (which isn't recommended on the 3.0R... even though you still use it on yours)

-18" Rims

-Nothing performance oriented

Then why didn't you purchase the 2.5i Limited and add Navigation (which we can do at the dealership) and 18" rims... this would have saved you tons of money and you would have gotten everything that you wanted.

[edekba]

3.0r handles better than a 2.5i i think.

 

so performance shoudlnt just be straight hp/power numbers

[...YKW]

No tuning options?!? Whoa, let's go back to the old school.....Headers, COA, bigger injectors, throttle body spacers, bigger fuel pumps, water injection, porting and polishing, does anyone remember NoS?

Seriously!?!?! Do that with your Legacy and let me know how long till it takes a big shit on the highway.

[...YKW]

3.0r handles better than a 2.5i i think.

 

so performance shoudlnt just be straight hp/power numbers

Legacy 2.5i:

Front Suspension-

Fully independent, Struts with coil springs, steel tower L-arms and stabilizer bar. Anti Dive Geometry

Rear Suspensioin-

Fully independent, steel multi-link, coil springs and stabilizer bar

 

Legacy 3.0R:

Front Suspension-

Fully independent, Struts with coil springs, steel tower L-arms and stabilizer bar. Anti Dive Geometry

Rear Suspensioin-

Fully independent, steel multi-link, coil springs and stabilizer bar

 

From the product specifications guide sitting on my desk they have the exact same suspension and the 3.0R weight 297lbs more than the 2.5i.

[edekba]

w/Blistiens shocks...

[Garandman]

I think after reading this thread I've discovered another advantage of the 3.0R over the 2.5T. Owning a turbo seems to make the owner immature.

[spraay]

[From the product specifications guide sitting on my desk they have the exact same suspension and the 3.0R weight 297lbs more than the 2.5i.]

 

I had this same thought process. Why not get the less expensive car, and add the options? I drove the 2.5i and th 3.0R, in order, one right after the other, and this is what I came up with.

 

Handling - About the Same. The 2.5i is softer and doesn't feel as low, so there is something different. Someone mentioned the shocks. They might have something there. The wheels and lower profile tires on the 3.0R probably have something to do with it. The geometry might be subtly different.

 

Acceleration - No contest. The 3.0R is all there. The 2.5i sounded like it was going to blow up when I stuck my foot in it to merge with traffic. Definitely not enough engine for the body. I'm sure the turbo helps on the GTs, but displacement is a great thing.

 

Features - I wanted all of the toys, Nav, paddle shifters, upgraded trim, leather, all of it. The 3.0R had them all, basically standard. There were three things on the options list on my car: spoiler, all-weather rubber mats, shock sensor.

 

Overall Impression - The 3.0R seemed quieter and smoother, particularly under acceleration. It still handled like a Legacy should, and was outfitted with everything I wanted.

 

SP

[05GT Guru]

I agree the 3.0r is a nice ass car, but i dont know why you kids try to comapre its perfromance to the 2.5gt, like i said even in the power is close stock, with a couple little mods you can pick up 60whp with a stage 2 setup. You cant do that with a 3.0r, so compareing them performance wise doesnt make sense. Yes you can put bolt ons on a 3.0r whats the point if you want a v6 with some power go with a maxima or something, the new ones have 300hp, alot more than the 245 the 3.0r is pushing. Yes displacement is nice, but so are turbos lol. People have hit high 12s with the stock turbo, i havent seen a 3.0r with nothing major done to it even hitting 13s.

[TweeterDan]

So if your criterion for purchasing the 3.0R was:

-Automatic Transmission

-Leather Interior

-Navigation

-Being able to use regular fuel (which isn't recommended on the 3.0R... even though you still use it on yours)

-18" Rims

-Nothing performance oriented

Then why didn't you purchase the 2.5i Limited and add Navigation (which we can do at the dealership) and 18" rims... this would have saved you tons of money and you would have gotten everything that you wanted.

 

I didn't say that performance had nothing to do with my purchasing decision. Nobody argues here that stock to stock, performance is similar between the GT and the 3.0. I drove both cars when I was looking and didn't notice a tremendous difference aside from the 3.0 being a bit smoother. Also, I'm not arguing the fact that it's easier to extract more power from the turbo engine. Engine mods are not what I'm into. Both the 3.0 and the GT have plenty of power for me in their stock form.

 

I mentioned a nicer interior, which isn't only about the leather. It's also about the nice rosewood (looking) inserts that aren't available on a GT or a 2.5i. Nav isn't an option for the 2.5i. Nor are 18" wheels. I know I could add wheels aftermarket but I'm happy to buy them with the car. Good luck integrating an aftermarket nav into my dash. I've worked in car audio shops since I was 17. I know what it would take to get an aftermarket nav into our dash (assuming you have the automatic climate control, which is another reason I went with the 3.0). I would rather have a factory nav than a dead radio under my aftermarket nav.

 

About the regular fuel, I don't know if it was this thread or another where someone had posted a letter from SOA saying that it's fine to use regular fuel. My dealership told me the same.

 

Here's how I look at it:

 

If you buy cars for what they are then you buy a 3.0R.

 

If you buy cars for what you can turn them into, you buy a GT.

[...YKW]

I didn't say that performance had nothing to do with my purchasing decision.

Wait a second, didn't you just say this?

You turbo guys think that the only reason that people buy these cars is for performance...performance isn't the only reason that people buy cars.

 

I mentioned a nicer interior, which isn't only about the leather. It's also about the nice rosewood (looking) inserts that aren't available on a GT or a 2.5i. Nav isn't an option for the 2.5i. Nor are 18" wheels. I know I could add wheels aftermarket but I'm happy to buy them with the car. Good luck integrating an aftermarket nav into my dash. I've worked in car audio shops since I was 17. I know what it would take to get an aftermarket nav into our dash (assuming you have the automatic climate control, which is another reason I went with the 3.0). I would rather have a factory nav than a dead radio under my aftermarket nav.

I'm going to say the exact same thing that I stated before:

-The 2.5i Limited and 3.0R has the exact same interior

-You can add the exact same navigation system through your dealership (=not aftermarket) into a 2.5i Limited

-The dash is exactly the same (sans the fake wood inserts), so why do you think that they can add the Navigation into the 3.0R's dash and not the 2.5i Limiteds?

-2.5i Limited has Automatic Climate Control and Dual Climate Control... just like the 3.0R's

 

You can accuse the "turbo-freaks" of being "immature" but I haven't seen them stating anything other than facts in this thread. Like I stated on one of the first pages of this thread, when it comes to the longevity and maintenace of the vehicles the 3.0R is going to be more expensive due to head gasket problems and leaking seals (things they are notorious for).

If you want good gas mileage, the ability to use regular fuel (call my old fashioned but I wouldn't chance running anything but premium in my H-6) and you don't care about performance I would get the 2.5i Limited.

If you actually do care about performance (even a tad) quite lying to yourself (and us for that matter) and just admit that you got the 3.0R because you feel that (to steal a phrase from some of the country bumpkins driving pick'em-up trucks and Camaros) "there is no replacement for displacement".

[05GT Guru]

I would have gone with a 3.0r if i was gonna leave the car stock. Also as far as the smooth trq curve, with a stage 1 tune and even more so with a stage 2 the curve is smoothed out for turbo cars

[TweeterDan]

I'm reading over my posts and I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I have no interest in performance. If that was the case then I would've bought a 2.5i. Read a little closer and you'll see that I said that performance is not the ONLY reason that people buy our cars. I like the power that my car has, the 2.5 wasn't enough for me. What I'm getting at is that I don't feel the need for any more power, so mod possibilities don't make any difference to me.

 

I was wrong about the climate control. My bad.

 

I agree that they could install the factory nav in a 2.5. MSRP on the 2.5i is $24,095 I would bet that the factory nav costs ~2k plus labor to install it. Add that to the 18" wheels and tires that I would need to get closer to everything I have in the 3.0 and I'm also getting a lot closer to the cost of the 3.0.

 

I never accused anybody of being a "turbo-freak" or being immature. I see lots of facts from the turbo guys too. A bunch of facts about what kind of performance can be extracted from the turbo engine. I don't argue with that. The OP wasn't asking which car would go faster with XYZ mods. He was asking what PEOPLE WHO OWN 3.0s think of them.

[Viber]

The 3.0 is a great ride all around. I hope Subaru continues to offer the engine after the next Legacy update.

 

Between the two, and I test drove both quite a bit, the 3.0 felt like the better driver...more refined. And with the price of fuel, not being forced to drink premium is very nice indeed.

 

Don’t get caught up in the poseur import "tuning" movement. Like Jay-Z said: "No Chrome on the wheels, I’m a grown-up for real." Drive both and see what fits your driving style better

[laurajwi]

You are correct. That's why I had it run on a dyno at TDC with regular, to see if there's any evidence of detonation, or ignition timing or other factors that would indicate that higher octane would yield improved performance. There wasn't. I've also logged every gallon of fuel used, 93, 89, and regular octane, to see if there's any difference in MPG - there wasn't. The car has 48,000 miles on it.

 

I did use 93 octane when I took it to a Skip Barber course, for the high-speed autocross at Devens, and towing. I'm not cheap, just don't see any need to waste money.

 

So, if there was not change in performance or fuel mileage between using regular and premium fuel, why did you bother using 93 octane when taking the car to the track? Based on your independent testing it gave you absolutely no performance advantage and cost you more money.

 

Just wondering.

[Robyrdt]

What does the "R" in 3.0R stand for?

[05GT Guru]

Regular fuel apparently, even though in the letter from SOA it states, if you develop a knock that you should switch back to premium, so why risk developing a knock and not just stick with premium?

[spraay]

Based on your independent testing it gave you absolutely no performance advantage and cost you more money.

 

Just wondering.

 

I'm surprised that there was not even a hint of knock running on regular. But the fact that the car already had 48,000 miles on may indicate a slight drop in compression. I would expect a moderate difference in horsepower and torque output on average. An engine with relatively high compression (or a turbo or supercharger) may knock (prematurely detonate the fuel/air charge) under hard acceleration, with lower octane fuel. The 3.0R compression spec is 10:1 IIRC, which is around the level I expect that fuel octane can be become an issue.

 

Fuel octane doesn't really give you more performance other than the fact that it is slightly harder to burn, resists pre-detonation, and allows the ignition timing to advance more quickly on a higher compression engine, producing higher engine output. If I read into the remarks from SOA, I suspect the 3.0R ECU has a detonation sensor to detect knock under hard acceleration, and it would, I suspect, retard the timing slightly to prevent it, thus reducing performance. This shouldn't be a long term reduction in performance, only at that instant. Unless detonation were to go on for extended periods, then the engine would be damaged. That's what the knock sensor is designed to avoid. It appears (presumption on my part) that there is no such sensor in the turbo engine, thus the absolute requirement run premium.

 

If there are any mechanics on this thread that can confirm my suspicion, I would welcome it. I'm an engineer of a different stripe, but have tinkered with cars most of my life. I don't believe that the electronic bits that do the timing in a modern engine change how they work at a fundamental level (timing, acceleration, knock etc...).

 

FWIW, I've never experienced any obvious instance of pre-detonation in my 3.0R, and I've stomped on it a couple of times with 87 octane gas in it. Perhaps 10:1 isn't high enough to make this engine knock with decent quality gas. So much the better!

 

SP

[05GT Guru]

you are correct, most ECUs that have a high comp engine will have 2 different tables for different octane gas. when it senses a lower octane that will cause a knock it changes the timing and you will notice less power.

[spraay]

Regular fuel apparently, even though in the letter from SOA it states, if you develop a knock that you should switch back to premium, so why risk developing a knock and not just stick with premium?

 

It's been my observation that the letter 'R' is used by Japanese car brands to denote performance-oriented models. The term 'Limited' is used by many auto brands around the world to denote a model with higher trim levels and more standard features. Both would seem to apply to the 3.0R 'Limited'. It has slightly more horsepower than even the SpecB (in stock trim), and is as loaded with features as a Legacy seems to get.

 

SP

[Garandman]

So, if there was not change in performance or fuel mileage between using regular and premium fuel, why did you bother using 93 octane when taking the car to the track? Based on your independent testing it gave you absolutely no performance advantage and cost you more money.

 

Just wondering.

Because my logging did not include lapping a track (albeit a short test track) at full throttle for several sessions of 5-10 minutes at a time. A dyno session is a few minutes and the car doesn't heat soak. It was a three dollar bet.

 

I'm surprised that there was not even a hint of knock running on regular. But the fact that the car already had 48,000 miles on may indicate a slight drop in compression. //

The dyno run was at 7,000 miles. Most of the logging of the different grades was between 5,000 and 10,000. Sometimes I fill with 89 or 93 now, but while I log all fuel use, I don't usually log the grade.

 

I intended to take the car back to TDC for another run with 93 Octane. My goal was two-fold, as I was also paying for a co-worker to have his LGT 5EAT run back-to-back. That way we would have back-to-back runs of both 5EAT cars on the same dyno under the same atmospheric conditions. I was on my way up there when I got a call from him saying that they could not make the dyno work with his automatic for some reason, and that they would get back to us. TDC is closing up for good so until I find another dyno - and interest - that's all she wrote.

 

The torque peak on mine as shown was about 163 ft lbs at 4500 rpms, but it reached 140 ft lbs at 2200 rpms and 159 at 3000 rpm. Peak HP was 170.9 at 5950 rpms. The redline is 7000 but he stopped the test at 5950. As he professes never to have done a stock 5EAT 2.5T or another H6, there's no way of knowing how representative that is.

[RiffRat]

Seriously!?!?! Do that with your Legacy and let me know how long till it takes a big shit on the highway.

 

I didn't say I was planning to, but it wouldn't really cause the same type of strain as adding another 3-5 lbs of boost would. Bringing a turbo up to the types of compression many are talking about in this thread would put significantly more strain on an engine and, more importantly, drivetrain.

 

Anyone with a brain will tell you a turbo'ed unit has significantly more growth potential for less $$. That wasn't the point. The original comment was about the lack of mod's for a NA vehicle. I thought it would be good timing to point out what people did BEFORE turbos became prominent.

 

I also test drove the 2.5GT's before buying a 3.0r, so please, spare me your immature "my car is better than your car" innuendos. If you want to race, buy a turbo, PLEASE! I personally love the turbos....I get behind them while they flex their "muscles" and let them attract all the attention from the police, while I enjoy the ride.

 

Now, go beat up some other car brand and show some respect for fellow Scoobie owners. BTW, do you even own a Legacy?!? Your avatar says STi...unless you live in Europe or Japan, you're driving a WRX and should have little or nothing to contribute of value to a Legacy opinion forum. They kick you out of the WRX forums or something??

[...YKW]

Nope, haven't gotten kicked out of any forums and am a high ranking member of our local AWD forum. I have owned 2 Legacys, my roommate currently owns a 2.5i SE (that she got from me) and I currently work for Subaru. I probably know more about your car than you do, so pardon my contributions and please chalk me up as another "turbo freak" who just wants to flex his muscles.... it's not my car that your suggested mods are going to blow up.

 

The only reason that I asked if you were serious about putting NOS in your N/A engine (among a list of other things you recommended) is because it might have been a decent option when people were running around racing their small block carburated V8's. With the electronics that are in our cars now it's not a very smart thing to do that anymore.

 

You saying that "it won't really cause the same strain as adding 3-5 lbs of boost would" is like telling your kid to jump in front of the speeding Ford Focus instead of the F-350... either way it's not going to end pretty.

[Riggs]

What does the "R" in 3.0R stand for?

 

The "R" stands for Reggie. After the guy that designed the engine, Reginald Von Tuttenhausen.