05+ Driving on thin ice/snow

[NSFW]

Going 70+ on snow, with ice underneath, is not a good feeling when gassing it, or braking. When braking moderately or hard, on the ice/snow, the rear, for me at least, tends to want to slide forward, and when pressing the gas moderately to hard, the rear wants to lead instead of the front.

All this is stock suspension with RE-92's.

 

Dude, you're gonna need these:

 

http://www.labsafety.com/store/Safety_Supplies/Protective_Clothing/Flame-Resistant_Clothing/53240/

 

 

[STG]

Regarding the STIFFER Swaybar, It wasn't put in to correct this condition, it was put in the elminate the tail wagging with the stock Swaybar that's installed in the cars that are built in the USA (20mm is the standard everywhere elso I'm told). This condition is pre-oversteer, it's dynamic rear suspension based in my view/experence. I installed it last spring so this is the first winter driving it with it installed. All I can tell you is that the condition is greatly reduced (but it always hard to compare winter driving conditions from one day to the other).

 

This is my third AWD car I have owned (88 Pontiac STE AWD - 98 Legacy (which doesn't have the issue) and the 05 OB Sedan). I live in Michigan and travel 40 to 50K a year for my work (Company supplies front wheel drive/non Subaru). I was an Instructer for 19 months for USMC at the Military Defensive Drive School in Quantico Virginia, so I'm pretty confident in my winter driving skills. I also owned a 76 Jeep CJ5 back when I was in the Marines in the 70's, which was the worst winter vehicle I ever owned (monster mud tires and a short wheel-base and snow don't make it).

 

The concerning aspect is this vehicle can't be driven at a speed that the other traffic is traveling at when these conditions are in-place. I've made the car better (the Dunlop M3's have helped also) but I would say it no where as good in these conditions as my 98 Legacy.

 

If your car is wagging its tail, the last thing you need is more rear sway bar. The other AWD vehicles you've owned all exhibit far more understeer than your Subaru.

 

A stiffer rear sway bar and/or stiffer rear springs and/or increased rear tire pressures all increase oversteer.

 

I learned this when I was sixteen from a guy named Kas Kastner (look him up). It was later reinforced at the Bob Bondurant school.

 

Current Legacys and Outbacks handle fine in winter conditions. I can and have hung the tail out on ice in corners and held it there with throttle and opposite lock. The handling is benign and repeatable. You can do it all day. :spin:

 

If you can't keep up with winter traffic in your car, I strongly suggest ditching that after market sway bar and taking a refresher winter driving class.

 

 

To the poster who claims there is a law mandating understeer:

 

QUIT MAKING STUFF UP.

[Garandman]

//There are certain US laws that require a car to understeer at the limit and folks upgrading the rear sways is not gonna help their winter driving confidence in this car; everything else being equal.

Citation needed.

[Garandman]

BTW, here's the thread the OP referenced from subaruoutback.org. It was posted by Boxxerace, a Moderator there.

It's titled, "05' Outback and newer, DANGEROUS ON ICE!"

 

I think this "problem" will rank right up there with Audi's "Unintended Acceleration."

 

Ok, now that we got beyond the bold subject line, let's address the issue that a number of us have experienced.

 

I personally have experienced "rear steer" like effects while driving on ice covered roads. This specifically happens only while driving on very compact ice, like the kind you find on any given paved road or highway in the winter.

 

Now, I have driven our 2005 Outback XT in the snow plenty and safely. Ice, on the other hand, is quite dangerous. Let me add one more caveat, I am no slouch or total newb on the slippery stuff. I spent years driving two or three times weekly up to the ski hill in the winter and I am one to spend hours out driving for fun come the first snow fall. I have a perfect driving record and I know the difference between off-throttle oversteer and throttle induced oversteer.

 

All that said, my experience with our 05' Outback is that something in the rear suspension alignment, results in wacky driving results on ice. While rolling on flat icy pavement at safe speeds and not even in gear, the rear end of the Outback will step out and attempt an end-switcheroo on you. The correction requires some countersteering and some throttle application. Our exact load consisted of one pair of skis on top, some recovery gear some food and cold weather clothing. I was the driver, accompanied by my wife and two children sitting in the rear seats (both three or under).

 

E-questions that I know you are going to ask:

 

1) Yes, I have new tires. Kuhmo Ecsta ASX's. No, not ice tires but continue reading.

2) No, the brakes were not applied to make this phenomenon occur. Nor the throttle.

3) Other cars, trucks and semi's were going faster than I was on the freeway, I was not driving excessively. No, I was not in a different lane than the other drivers.

 

I view this issue as an important problem SOA will need to address. I believe it stems from an issue of toe in or caster change when slightly loaded in the rear. Nipp's, Porc, Random, etc. Looking forward to your ideas!

 

For reference, it is a stock 2005 Outback XT with the winter package, Kuhmo ASX tires (newish) and a manual transmission. I encountered this while driving around 40-50 miles per hour.

[rjundi]

BTW, here's the thread the OP referenced from subaruoutback.org.

 

It's titled, "05' Outback and newer, DANGEROUS ON ICE!"

 

I think this "problem" will rank right up there with Audi's "Unintended Acceleration."

 

 

 

I like the start Kumho ASX tires and 40-50MPH on icy conditions......

[f1anatic]

To the poster who claims there is a law mandating understeer:

 

QUIT MAKING STUFF UP.

 

Oho...slow down champ. I think you need to be a little more respectful.

 

I will dig it up. Patience. I actually tried to use the citation when I posted this but all I could find is NHTSA mandating ESC. But trust me, there are such laws dictating how a car should behave at the limit. Understeer is safer than oversteer and last thing a car should do is spin around its axle into the incoming traffic. Imagine taking an exit ramp off the highway ? What is safer - you slowing down because the car cannot take the turn at high speed ? or your back end coming loose and doing an 180 ?

 

You want me to dig up the law that in effect translates into our Subarus having different bumpers than the JDM ones as well ?

[f1anatic]

Here...if you have more time to waste than I do

 

do a search on

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

for

SAE J266

 

and i am sure you will come up with a final ruling which was listed in the Code of Federal Regulations.

 

And I am sure it is listed in here

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/index.html

part 571 Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

 

[STG]

The Federal Government has a bumper height requirement.

 

It has nothing to do with a law requiring cars to understeer. You haven't provided a citation because it does not exist. You tried searching and found nothing.

 

Perhaps at the very least you could give me the legal definition of understeer. :lol:

 

Like I stated earlier, you are just making this crap up and should be ashamed of yourself for doing so. The late jazz drummer Buddy Rich had a name for guys like you: B.S. High School Jive Artists.:spin:

[f1anatic]

He he STG, I would be careful with how you phrase your statements. Your personal attacks prove nothing but a young age.

 

Just because I have no time to waste searching online for that one claim does not mean you are right. Prove me wrong with your citation since you apparently have the time to waste. If you search this forum about the JDM sway bar being thicker than the OEM US one you will come across the reference as well. Go back to 2005 conversations/threads. There are a number of things that DOT and NHTSA do different for imported cars - be that bumper height and dimensions, headlights, etc.

 

NHTSA understeering = "plowing out" - the first to references Mr. Google showed me.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated%20Files/ESC_NPRM.pdf

http://www.safercar.gov/BASC2007/pages/SafetyFeatures.htm

[DukeTrout]

If your car is wagging its tail, the last thing you need is more rear sway bar. The other AWD vehicles you've owned all exhibit far more understeer than your Subaru.

 

A stiffer rear sway bar and/or stiffer rear springs and/or increased rear tire pressures all increase oversteer.

 

I learned this when I was sixteen from a guy named Kas Kastner (look him up). It was later reinforced at the Bob Bondurant school.

 

Current Legacys and Outbacks handle fine in winter conditions. I can and have hung the tail out on ice in corners and held it there with throttle and opposite lock. The handling is benign and repeatable. You can do it all day. :spin:

 

If you can't keep up with winter traffic in your car, I strongly suggest ditching that after market sway bar and taking a refresher winter driving class.

 

 

To the poster who claims there is a law mandating understeer:

 

QUIT MAKING STUFF UP.

 

Bold emphasis mine. These statements are right on. I drive hundreds of hours on snow and ice. Unlike Michigan (where I grew up, and learned to drive on snow), the roads I drive in Oregon are never straight. They are all curves. In the OBXT, I'm the one doing all the passing. The only modifications I have on it are Dean Wintercat studded tires and a second set of 17 x 7 wheels to mount them on. On sweeping curves, I never have a problem with the rear stepping out. On tighter turns, SLOW DOWN BEFORE the turn, then feed throttle on the way out. You'll get some oversteer, but it is nice and predictable (not to mention, rather fun).

 

If you're getting passed on the highway with a truly icy surface, please let the idiots go the speed they want to crash at. Stay safe. If you think you really have some kind of problem, get your alignment checked. It's not the design of the car, dude.

[spongemonster]

I find it odd that so many of you have this problem. I haven't received my winter tires yet so I'm driving an 08 outback on stock tires in deep snow, compact snow, slush, and ice. I haven't noticed any problems other than issues stopping because all seasons aren't meant for snow and ice. Maybe the problem is I come from a highly modified rear drive volvo with a detroit ez-locker that is extremely tail happy but very controllable.

 

My suggestion for all of you is go to a parking lot that is clear of obstacles and try some emergency avoidance maneuvers. I've heard it said many a time that the problem is not with a piece of equipment but instead with the loose nut attached to the controls.

[Garandman]

He he STG, I would be careful with how you phrase your statements. Your personal attacks prove nothing but a young age.

 

Just because I have no time to waste searching online for that one claim does not mean you are right. Prove me wrong with your citation since you apparently have the time to waste. If you search this forum about the JDM sway bar being thicker than the OEM US one you will come across the reference as well. Go back to 2005 conversations/threads. There are a number of things that DOT and NHTSA do different for imported cars - be that bumper height and dimensions, headlights, etc.

 

NHTSA understeering = "plowing out" - the first to references Mr. Google showed me.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated%20Files/ESC_NPRM.pdf

http://www.safercar.gov/BASC2007/pages/SafetyFeatures.htm

He is not the only one to ask you for the specific citation. Your claim that it is referenced in another thread is not convincing. And I have not been accused of being young for around 35 years.

[STG]

He he STG, I would be careful with how you phrase your statements. Your personal attacks prove nothing but a young age.

 

Just because I have no time to waste searching online for that one claim does not mean you are right. Prove me wrong with your citation since you apparently have the time to waste. If you search this forum about the JDM sway bar being thicker than the OEM US one you will come across the reference as well. Go back to 2005 conversations/threads. There are a number of things that DOT and NHTSA do different for imported cars - be that bumper height and dimensions, headlights, etc.

 

NHTSA understeering = "plowing out" - the first to references Mr. Google showed me.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated%20Files/ESC_NPRM.pdf

http://www.safercar.gov/BASC2007/pages/SafetyFeatures.htm

 

You claimed there is existing law that prohibits oversteer in automobiles and/or oversteering automobiles. All you have provided are references to ESC, which can moderate understeer and/or oversteer. You obviously can't comprehend the difference.

 

You challenge me to provide a citation? I maintain YOUR CLAIM IS NON EXISTENT, therefore no citation is possible. Your references to bumper height and lighting are irrelevant.

 

Your claim that "there are a number of things that DOT and NHTSA do different for imported cars" proves just how limited your knowledge is. All manufacturers, whether foreign or domestic, must meet the same standand in each vehicle class. There are NO special rules for Japanese, English, German, Korean or any other cars.

 

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to vehicle handling dynamics, NHTSA, or how old I am.

 

I'll give you a clue as to my age: I first met Kas Kastner when I was in high school and he was the head of the Competition Department at British Leyand in the United States.

 

I do not suffer fools gladly are you are one huge fool about to have a one car fatal accident.:lol:

 

Oh, by the way. I find your claim of not having time to waste looking up a citation preposterous coming from someone who has the time to waste putting up 4,137 posts on this website.

[SLegacy99]

Who's Kas Kastner?

[STG]

This is who I got my suspension technical information from.

 

 

R. W. "Kas" Kastner was a well known production car driver in the late 1950's and class Champion of the California Sports Car Club in 1959 as well as winner of the Championship for the SCCA during that same year. The Championships were won driving a 1958 TR3A Triumph . He was the Chief Instructor for the California Sports Car Club at the Riverside Raceway for several years and also the National Licensing Chairman for the SCCA . Kas was winner of the Sports Car Club of America's annual award for the Best Technical Article (1963). Kas has also participated in sailboat racing for twenty years and was the National Champion in two classes along with many regional and divisional titles.

 

 

Automotive Experience

R.W.'s experience in the automotive industry spans over 50 years. He has particular experience in the field of performance vehicles and automotive racing and racing team management.

He designed various automotive performance parts, systems and methods of increasing the performance of standard production cars.

Racing

 

R. W. "Kas" Kastner is an acknowledged expert in racing team management with a winning history of National and International racing events. He has wins in various classes and prototype competitions for many well known automotive manufacturers and privately owned racing teams. R.W. was the past owner/manager of independent companies such as Arkay Inc., Kastner-Brophy Inc., Kastner Brophy Racing and Roy Woods Racing. Under the flag of these companies he was the team manager of the Formula 5000, Can Am and Indy car teams. These teams were raced under the Kastner Brophy Racing & Roy Woods Racing names, and sponsored by Carling Black Label Beer, Goodyear, Champion and others.

He was also involved with the design, manufacturing and sale of performance components and systems such as; engine high performance parts, suspension parts, turbocharger systems, brakes, and aerodynamic improvement of body parts and design.

 

(Kas used my then new 1983 VW GTI to prototype a few of those parts.)

 

Author

R.W. started the USA Triumph Competition Department for the Triumph factory in the early 1960's. He authored the Triumph Preparation manuals distributed by the Triumph factory in the 1960 - 1972 era of production car racing. R.W. is well-known for his pursuit of power increases for the Triumph cars with long experience in engine dynamometer testing.

He then authored and published two new books starting in 2003 on Triumph racing and historical information on racing when he was the Triumph Competition Manager for the USA.

 

Kas & The NISSAN YEARS

R. W. "Kas" Kastner was the Motorsports National Manager for Nissan of North America from 1986 thru 1990. He then moved on to be Vice President, Operations, of the new Nissan research and development facility Nissan Performance Technology Inc (NPTI) in Vista, California. At this facility Kas and his team of over 225 experts were responsible for the design, development, construction and racing of the Nissan prototype cars predominate in the International Motorsports Association (IMSA) series of road racing events. During this period he lead the team of Nissan Prototype cars to four consecutive Drivers Championships for Geoff Brabham and three consecutive Manufacturers championships for Nissan. The 12 hours of Sebring, 24 hours of Daytona and 24 hours of Le Mans were all on the long schedule of events.

[NSFW]

Here...if you have more time to waste than I do

 

do a search on

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

for

SAE J266

 

and i am sure you will come up with a final ruling which was listed in the Code of Federal Regulations.

 

And I am sure it is listed in here

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/cfr/index.html

part 571 Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

 

 

SAE J266 is a test procedure, not a law.

 

I think the following link returns Part 571 in its entirety, there's no mention of oversteer, understeer, or J266:

 

http://frwebgate1.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=768480446641+1+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

 

Sorry man, but I think you were misinformed.

[VXCL]

should have bought the LGT it is king of cars!!!

[f1anatic]

There is a beautiful IGNORE feature. Do not worry, I will not be reading your reply since the site automatically hides it for me. I did a quick check and all your answers are "smart ass" comments.

 

So I may be misinformed and claimed something that may not exist. SO WHAT ? Did anyone get hurt ? Did I insult anyone ? Nope... So I may have been misinformed and may have misunderstood something. Well ...where is the tragedy in that ?

 

 

I really could care less who you are and who you shook hands in your life time or what your real age is or what your level of expertise and education is. Judging from your answers you gave in all your posts on this website...biological age and level of education is irrelevant. Your answers in whatever threads you participates tell the story.

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/search.php?searchid=3728308

 

 

Have a nice life and drive safely and make sure you do not spin out on thin ice/snow.

 

As I said

This message is hidden because STG is on your ignore list.

I will not be reading your answers. Call it whatever, but there is no point in any further conversation with you.

 

Aeternum Vale !

[STG]

So I may be misinformed and claimed something that may not exist. SO WHAT ? Did anyone get hurt ? Did I insult anyone ? Nope... So I may have been misinformed and may have misunderstood something. Well ...where is the tragedy in that ?

 

 

:lol::spin:

[one69chev]

[BigBad]

:munch:wow this thread went south.

[one69chev]

a lot of threads seem to heading that general direction around here lately.

[imstillatwork]

yep, another classic crap-fest. Can I be a moderator? Threads like this get locked on most forums worth reading

[dga]

My '07 Nismo Frontier over steered. It died at 9812 miles from stepping the rear end out, at 60 MPH on the freeway, in the wet and kissing the median with its a**. I can usually control a sideways sliding vehicle (Had a Nissan 240SX that loved to fish tail even in the dry.), but it becomes really hard to control a 4700 lbs. 4x4 at 60 MPH, going sideways. I was hoping that the LGT was better, so far no problems.

[Garandman]

yep, another classic crap-fest. Can I be a moderator? Threads like this get locked on most forums worth reading

Did you know that you cannot put a Moderator on Ignore?