TimGinCentralNJ

MS- Out of curiosity, is this something you're planning on following-up on through your contacts in Germany? If we could find out what changes (if any) need exist between the Germany parts and your existing parts list, it would be interesting to see if the dealership in Germany would be willing to build a "kit" for us here in the U.S. If it helps any, I have a very good friend in Netherlands who's a die-hard "car guy" and does some reselling of BMW parts (he's in Germany a lot). He'd be willing to speak with the dealer and see if something could be worked out. I'd also trust him to arrange shipping, as well if something does come of this. I'm just not sure what the "next steps" should be.... Thoughts? Tim

Definitely interested. At 76k miles, the suspension which was just "quirky" when the car was new has gotten much worse with age...worse to the point where I'm starting not to want this car any more--especially since I'll soon be faced with spending in the neighborhood of $800+ (just a guess) to replace the crappy OEM springs and struts with another crappy set of the same. I'd rather spent a little more and get some thing which addresses this awful suspension, and keep the car.

....boy, I sure hope so!! Anyone have any updates? Tim

Love it!!! How funny is it that this was the sketch which came up on my Monty Python calendar yesterday? Thanks for the laugh.... Tim

Agreed. Clutch or viscous type LSDs don't "hunt" for traction, but when wheel spin is detected intermittently on each wheel, the act of engaging internal clutches to bind both wheels together does technically result in the transfer of torque from the wheel with the most wheel spin (because torque cannot exist where traction does not exist) to the wheel with the least wheel spin. On a slippery surface where both wheels have poor traction, the act of an LSD locking and unlocking will often cause both rear wheels to lose traction at the same time. Hopefully that clarifies my comment a little better. Yeah, I can't say that I've run across this on my manual trans 2005 OBXT either. Yes, I've had the rear slide out before, but only in turns on slipper surfaces where I've applied throttle and shouldn't have.

Perhaps the overall "design" hasn't changed significantly from 2000 to the current gen OBs, but the "execution" of that design on MY 2005 and newer cars is a whole different story. Being both under-sprung and under-dampened are not characteristics of any of the pre-2005 models I've ever driven. Tim

Bingo! I think you've got it.... It's the rear LSD becoming "confused" and shifting torque from side to side because it can't find enough traction on either wheel. The result is, the rear wheel which is receiving the majority of torque at that moment briefly loses what little traction it has making it feel like the rear of the car wants to break loose. Now imagine this happening from side to side every few seconds....it would feel like your rear end can't stick to the road. This is one of the reasons why most hard-core off-roaders won't use traction differentials which they cannot fully engage or disengage manually. Sometimes having a rear wheel spin will allow the vehicle to maintain its direction whereas a traction differential--because it's designed to automatically try and find a wheel with traction to move the torque to--can cause both rear wheels to lose traction, causing the vehical's rear end to spin out....possibly at a really bad time...say when you're on the edge of a cliff Tim Tim

Finally, someone agrees with me! I know this board never came to a definitive answer on this issue, but personally I believe it's the LSD shifting torque from side to side on slippery surfaces--and possibly (at least on auto trans) compounded by the shifting of torque from front to rear, too. Having driving a buddy's old bmw on packed snow once, I remember feeling the rear lsd shifting power from wheel to wheel back and forth making the tail want to flip out in either direction even though I was driving with a steady foot, in a straight line on a flat surface. Based on my experience at least, this is the most plausible explanation. Tim

+1. IMO, they've got "nowhere to go but up" on their suspension design on the current gen OB. I've driven older OBs and the design introduced with the MY 2005 OB was a definite step in the wrong direction...most likely in a feeble attempt to do what Audi did with pneumatic suspension on the Allroad only without the cost and complication. Hopefully they'll get it right this time. Tim

Wow, just realized this is an old post...I thought I was subscribed to this thread, but maybe not! Not sure exactly what the F/R weight ratio is in the OB, but I'm wondering if what you felt might've also been the result of the poorly matched suspension combined with typical behavior of many AWD systems. I know when I do any hard cornering in my OBXT (which I don't do often because it's not pleasurable), the rear end definitely sways big time....that along with the rear wheels pushing at the same time feels like your arse is about to pass your front! Tim

Many years ago, I had the predecessor to the 240...the 200sx (the V6 model with a whopping 160 hp... woo hoo!). Was a great car, but I'd agree with your wife's assessment in the snow...until I put snow tires on it, and about 100 lbs of weight in the rear hatch. That turned it into a tank. If I can't have AWD I've always preferred RWD with snows and weight over FWD personally. Tim

I'll take it one step further and go on record as saying "a rear LSD can help cause the rear end to come loose" on a slippery surface because it's constantly shifting power back and forth between the left and right wheels in an attempt to reduce slippage. If the road is slippery enough, the transfer of torque between sides can actually cause the back end to lose all traction, e.g., become "tail happy". And after thinking about this a while, I'll betcha' over-inflated tires would amplify this situation. If you talk to any hard core off-roaders, they'll tell you an open differential is the best thing to have on icy surfaces because there is no transfer of torque which can cause the vehicle's stability to shift suddenly. Tim

Good question...I was wondering that myself. Although not an AWD or a Subaru, I used to borrow my old roommate's bmw 320i which had a rear LSD and that's exactly how it behaved in snowy conditions--even on flat road surfaces. Even when driving at slower speeds, you could feel the LSD shifting power between the rear wheels which had a tendency to make the rear want to kick out. I haven't taken note how many of the people who belive they've experienced this problem had a rear LSD in their Subarus, but it does sound plausible. Another possibility: I'm running WinterForce M+S (studded) tires, and I have noticed the rear in my OBXT has seemed a little more tail-happy than normal this season (even on snowy roads) since I began running higher-than-recommended tire pressure in an attempt to have slightly better dry handling and better gas mileage. Although the higher tire pressure reduces the contact patch, it also makes the tire harder and less able to grip a slippery surface. Combined with the rear LSD and the fact the rear of the car has less of the vehicle's weight than the front....sounds like a recipe for 'slippage', eh? Thoughts anyone? Tim