Subaru Sales Slump, December and Year

[IwannaSportSedan]

That matrix is FUGLY. The Impreza is better looking, and more cohesive. Forester MUCH more so.

 

It looks like it has melted in the direct sun, or something. truly a sad state of car design, and management that would approve it.

[SLegacy99]

To be honest, if I had to choose between a new Impreza 2.5i or a 1st gen RS, I'd choose the latter. At under 3000 lbs and the fact that its not an eyesore I prefer it to the ugly thing we have now. I can't believe its setting sales records.

[whobaru]

...just wait 'til the new Forester shows up.

 

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x312/kagenmateer/foz_chop.jpg

[Natheya]

Seems there are many factors to consider when looking at those numbers.. So I will try to sum it all up. First there is fuel economy which is huge right now. Then there is the supposed recessive state of the economy. Another thing to factor in is that Subaru vehicles are quite reliable over many years so people will be upgrading less. The biggest buyers of new Subarus are probably past Subaru owners. Also, of course they lose out on the sporty wagon look with limiting the Legacy in the US. Finally as was mentioned there is now a lot of new competition in the AWD sedan field that once was virtually dominated by Subaru.. After looking these numbers and considering what has been mentioned I would hardly consider these numbers a slump but rather a consequence of the ever changing market..

 

Someone also mentioned 26k for a base LGT. I got my 5EAT 08 in May 07 with some options for a tad over 26.. Eventually a dealer will give in.. They can go that low..

[D_J]

That matrix is FUGLY. The Impreza is better looking, and more cohesive. Forester MUCH more so.

 

It looks like it has melted in the direct sun, or something. truly a sad state of car design, and management that would approve it.

 

Toyota makes some of the most durable, reliable engines in the world...but the designs of cars like the Matrix and Prius are just horrible.

 

The Matrix is one of the ugliest designs I have ever seen. Plus it is just way too small in comarison to the Legacy/Outback wagons. Toyota use to make the CAMRY wagon which was comparable in cargo space...but has been discontinued for over 10 years now.

[SLegacy99]

The whole point of the Prius is to be bold and noticed. And still provide a considerable a mount of cargo space despite the large battery pack.

[D_J]

Yeah I'm not knocking Toyota's vision, leadership as the #1 hybrid, or engines...

 

Just really think that they really need a lot of work to improve the body designs especially on the Prius and Matrix

[IwannaSportSedan]

Toyota makes some of the most durable, reliable engines in the world...but the designs of cars like the Matrix and Prius are just horrible.

 

The Matrix is one of the ugliest designs I have ever seen. Plus it is just way too small in comarison to the Legacy/Outback wagons. Toyota use to make the CAMRY wagon which was comparable in cargo space...but has been discontinued for over 10 years now.

 

Didn't toyota have some trouble recently with their truck engines, and previous camrys with oiling or sludging trouble?

 

Give me a subaru boxer over a toyota anything in small displacements. And in the V8 realm... Ford and GM have some well developed OHV and OHC engines, and maybe even Nissan/Infiniti's VQ engines for big V6s, but maybe that is because they put them into sportier RWD cars, though... And before you bring up Lexus... I'll bring up Jag/Aston Martin's V8, AMG V8s and V12s, and BMW V8s, V10s, and V12s...

 

Toyota may make some reliable engines, and that is fine. They should, considering their revenue base, and the number of cars they sell. But none of them since the Supra's Turbo I6 have been very passionate. A-to-B appliances hardly seem noteworthy, considering how universal they are becoming, both engines and cars.

 

And their current lineup is boring to downright ugly.

Avalon - boring

Camry - ugly

Corolla - boring

Highlander - extremely boring

Solara - very ugly

Yaris - boring, but at least not ugly. Beggars can't be choosers.

Matrix - went from boring to HORRIFICALLY Ugly.

Their SUVS are pretty mundane, as well, but I don't care about SUVs, and they all look mundane, except maybe Range Rovers and older BMW X5.

Prius - odd, and famous for being odd, by being a badge of honor for environmentalists. (this car is the most popular hybrid because it is identifiable, regardless of it's technology. The revenue simply has allowed toyota to improve it. Honda lost out because it didn't cause excessive amounts of smug, and the Civic and Accord hybrids looked too normal)

 

The old camry wagon was ugly as sin, too, with a weird rear quarter window treatment. Legacy has never been that ugly, throughout it's generations, and there are more old legacys on the road than old camrys, by a percentage of how many were sold. I see several first and second generation legacys regularly driving around as daily drivers, from the late 80s and early 90s, nearly 20 years old.

 

Toyota is toyota. and lately, they haven't been impressing me. Not to say that they are horrible, they just aren't that impressive. They cancelled the MR2, tried the just-too-impractical MR2 Spyder, cancelled the Supra without revival, and later the Celica that actually looked good, after looking bad for so long. The Scion Tc respectable looking, but hardly can hold up the performance car market for Toyota entirely.

 

The upcoming AE86 successor should be interesting, especially if it has subaru chassis elements. But Subaru really needs to take the reigns of their performance vehicles, and make them work for them, instead of being just a foot-note to the rest of the brand lineup. Toyota isn't going to help them with that, and can't even do it for themselves.

[SLegacy99]

I dont overly care for the Matrix either, but I guess Toyota is doing something right. People buy them.

[SLegacy99]

Didn't toyota have some trouble recently with their truck engines, and camrys with sludging trouble?

My mom got a letter from Lexus in 2000 about oil gelling in cold temps. Is this what you are reffering to? They said that they wouldn't be responsible or only for a portion or something like that. A month later she got another letter from Lexus stating that they would be entirely responsible if this problem should occur. Guess they got alot complaints.

[IwannaSportSedan]

That could be related, if it was a Lexus ES.

 

I just remember something about Toyota's main line FWD engines in the Camry (and probably Lexus ES by similarity) having trouble with engine wear or failure to to inadequate oiling for some sort of reason.

 

I remember thinking that it was similar to the Volks/Audi I4 being cited for too small of an oil sump pickup or something that caused inadequate oiling on those engines...

 

...and wondering why companies like VAG and Toyota would be skimping on that, of all things.

 

And the recent tundra problems with camshaft casting quality also brings up questions. Toyota's recall rate has been increasing for the last few years, along with a lot of european manufacturers. Nobody seems to be going down in recalls and TSBs... but some bigger companies seem to be going up fairly quickly.

 

Luckily Subaru is pretty low on their number of TSBs and Recalls for their model lines, have very good long term reliability, (albeit not ultra-high initial quality numbers, just above average.) and their cars continue to stay on the road for a very long time, statistically. Sounds good to me.

[SLegacy99]

Hmmm, well the Camry V6 the ES, and the RX all had the same 3.0L along with the Avalon, IS, and GS. Could be related.

 

My mom's 99 RX300 had the same kind of repairs (oil leaks, starter replacement) as I have had on my '99 Legacy. Up until we got rid of the RX, I believe they were dead even in the amount of money we had spend reparing each. Therefore, I don't trust either brand over the other. We had our Toyota Previa for 12 years. Still worked when we got rid of it.

[chenc544]

Toyota makes some of the most durable, reliable engines in the world...but the designs of cars like the Matrix and Prius are just horrible.

 

The Matrix is one of the ugliest designs I have ever seen. Plus it is just way too small in comarison to the Legacy/Outback wagons. Toyota use to make the CAMRY wagon which was comparable in cargo space...but has been discontinued for over 10 years now.

 

Obviously beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I like the new designs that Toyota is coming out with. I like the Matrix, Camry and the Yaris exterior design, I certainly like them better than what Subaru is putting out. Of all the major car makers, I think Mazda has the best exterior designs right now.

Matrix is not mean to compete with the Legacy/Outback. It's competition is the Impreza wagon and Outback Sport and they are all about the same size. I'm sure Toyota stop making the Camry wagons because it wasn't selling, same reason SOA stop selling Legacy wagon.

[Guest]

Interesting thing is the Legacy sales numbers for 2006. A lot of people on the board complained about SOA canceling the wagon for MY08. Well they only sold about 4,200 wagons for MY07, compare to over 59,000 Outbacks. From a business point of view you can't really blame the SOA for stop making the Legacy wagon.

 

Quit beancounter mentality. For MY2007 SOA severely limited production of wagons, reduced trims (GT Limited Auto only), heck, they even hid existence of 2.5i MT wagon trim!! It was available for MY2007 but it was not listed on SOA webpage.

 

Point is it would cost them nil to allow special ordering of wagons, given they are still being manufactured in Indiana - so it's not plant/tooling issue. Plus they could easily charge above invoice, if not MSRP for these folks stubborn to buy a Legacy wagon.

 

It was nothing else but someone's pet idea of separating Legacy and Outback lines at SOA. So American customer is not confused anymore

 

Last, but not least for a manufacturer than barely sells 200k cars a year, 4k should not be something to forgo. Note, in 2005, where selection of Legacy wagon trims was much better (not entierly, since calendar year spans two model years, and MY2006 selection was limited), they sold 7k of them. That represents about 3.5% sales (total 196k). Again, not stellar numbers, but not bad.

 

Source:

 

http://vocuspr.vocus.com/vocuspr30/Temp/Sites/1571/caaf3cd5753a47ea93cb9795df6bdd1c/Subaru_YearEnd_%202006_Sales4Web%20.doc

[Jack ffr1846]

I was 99% ready to just buy another Mazda 6 before spending 20 minutes after the first big snow storm getting up my driveway. I bought the LGT having seen the reliability of Subaru go up in general and having driven both this and the speed 6 which wasn't continuing for 08. I drove the spec B, the LGT and a regular Legacy. After studying the brochure, and figuring out only the turbo models (and 3.0) had rear LSD, I made my choice. 3 wheels driving me guaranteed sure beats one in my Mazda.

 

A HUGE LGT advantage that Subaru says nothing about is SI drive. I knew nothing about it....had never even heard of it. When I saw the "SI Drive" in the car I thought "oh no.....I drive....aka BMW abortion. I absolutely love it. I run in I mode most of the time to get the gas mileage and click to S# only when I know I'll need it. I get the power of the LGT and a smidge over 27mpg!!! Nobody knows about this.....at least I knew nothing about it.

 

We're buying my wife a replacement for her outback (at least I plan to) in the spring and I'm seriously considering getting an outback XT for her.

 

jack

[chenc544]

Quit beancounter mentality. For MY2007 SOA severely limited production of wagons, reduced trims (GT Limited Auto only), heck, they even hid existence of 2.5i MT wagon trim!! It was available for MY2007 but it was not listed on SOA webpage.

 

Point is it would cost them nil to allow special ordering of wagons, given they are still being manufactured in Indiana - so it's not plant/tooling issue. Plus they could easily charge above invoice, if not MSRP for these folks stubborn to buy a Legacy wagon.

 

It was nothing else but someone's pet idea of separating Legacy and Outback lines at SOA. So American customer is not confused anymore

 

Last, but not least for a manufacturer than barely sells 200k cars a year, 4k should not be something to forgo. Note, in 2005, where selection of Legacy wagon trims was much better (not entierly, since calendar year spans two model years, and MY2006 selection was limited), they sold 7k of them. That represents about 3.5% sales (total 196k). Again, not stellar numbers, but not bad.

 

Source:

 

http://vocuspr.vocus.com/vocuspr30/Temp/Sites/1571/caaf3cd5753a47ea93cb9795df6bdd1c/Subaru_YearEnd_%202006_Sales4Web%20.doc

 

Bottom line, if SOA thinks they will be better off selling the Legacy wagon it will still be in the dealer lot. SOA obviously didn't think so for one reason or another. Maybe they figure people would just buy the Outback, which has a high profit margin for them. It's their money, their market share, they will do whatever they think is the best for their bottom line. If we as consumer don't like it, we can always buy from someone else. At the end of the day they make cars to make money. Sometimes that means making enthusiasts happy, sometimes it doesn't...

[IwannaSportSedan]

Bottom line, if SOA thinks they will be better off selling the Legacy wagon it will still be in the dealer lot. SOA obviously didn't think so for one reason or another. Maybe they figure people would just buy the Outback, which has a high profit margin for them. It's their money, their market share, they will do whatever they think is the best for their bottom line. If we as consumer don't like it, we can always buy from someone else. At the end of the day they make cars to make money. Sometimes that means making enthusiasts happy, sometimes it doesn't...

 

You are assuming that Subaru is operating perfectly and knowledgeably. You assume too much.

 

One problem is that when they were "trying" to sell Legacy wagons, THEY WEREN'T ON THE LOTS!!! I had to fly half way across the country, and buy used to find what I wanted, after Subaru didn't stock, and then cancelled the option package I wanted, and that was just a Garnet Red or Regal Blue GT sedan with black leather and a stick! I know that during that time, Legacy wagons were rare, and GTs, especially with manual transmissions, were pretty much unheard of. Even sedans with manual transmissions were extremely rare, and still are.

 

You can't sell cars that people can't see, and don't know that they want. It is even more important to have cars stocked for non-enthusiasts than it is for enthusiasts who seek out what they want.

 

That sort of thing is not perfect, and not all that knowledgeable. My local dealer, and no dealer for that matter, did not get my money, a fellow and now former subaru owner did. I have my Subaru, Subaru has less profit than if I had found a new one to buy, and it did not count again as a new sale would have. That is the consequence of not selling what I wanted and planned for two years to buy.

 

The Outback is fine, but it is not the same thing as the Legacy, and it is more than just the wagon bodystyle, which is why I still think there is room for a Legacy wagon, although the 3.0R Outback Sedan may only truly be missed by people who have owned one. You may be right about the Outback having a bigger profit margin, but that profit margin isn't worth the loss of sales of Legacys, not all of which automatically will buy an Outback instead.

 

It is their money to ignore, and their marketshare to lose, you are right about that. Although I don't think they are in a place to be able to comfortably afford much more of that loss. I really don't see how ignoring customers is good for ANY bottom line, let alone an already tight one. Hence a thread about sales down monthly and annually.

 

I contended before, and still do, that making consumers happy, especially enthusiast consumers, breeds the kind of advertising that money can't buy. Good word-of-mouth from knowledgeable (read: enthusiast) customers with first hand experience. They are barely surviving on the good word of mouth and cult following that they currently have. People would not have bought the original Tribeca if they didn't already know that Subaru is a good product. First impressions on that vehicle, and the new impreza, are not good ones. Previous Legacys, and more recently Outbacks and Imprezas have fostered that, some of which comes from the performance reputation of a car like the WRX STI, serving it's halo role well.

 

Assuming that people, like those decision makers at SOA automatically know, and perfectly do what is in their own best interest is an inaccurate assumption more often than most people think. Look at Ford. they don't want to be in the poor position they find themselves in. Look at the approval ratings of nearly the whole federal government... less than 15% in Congress' case, I am pretty sure they don't want that. But sometimes I really wonder if they actually don't care.

[SLegacy99]

Id be curious to know how many of the Legacies sold were the 3.0R.

[Hefyforme]

If Subaru builds concept Exiga wagon from the Tokyo auto show it would be a hit. I'd buy one if it comes with a manual.

Exiga Wagon Concept

 

the

[krzyss]

That could be related, if it was a Lexus ES.

 

I just remember something about Toyota's main line FWD engines in the Camry (and probably Lexus ES by similarity) having trouble with engine wear or failure to to inadequate oiling for some sort of reason.

 

I remember thinking that it was similar to the Volks/Audi I4 being cited for too small of an oil sump pickup or something that caused inadequate oiling on those engines...

 

...and wondering why companies like VAG and Toyota would be skimping on that, of all things.

 

And the recent tundra problems with camshaft casting quality also brings up questions. Toyota's recall rate has been increasing for the last few years, along with a lot of european manufacturers. Nobody seems to be going down in recalls and TSBs... but some bigger companies seem to be going up fairly quickly.

 

Luckily Subaru is pretty low on their number of TSBs and Recalls for their model lines, have very good long term reliability, (albeit not ultra-high initial quality numbers, just above average.) and their cars continue to stay on the road for a very long time, statistically. Sounds good to me.

 

I think VAG and Toyota design engines having particular oils in mind. Then the spec goes through different departments and when it gets to marketing in USA they see "synthetic" and they think "we cannot force customers to do this, it is too expensive". So the way original VW user's manual was written oil meeting VW502.00 spec (only some synthetic oils were meeting this at the time of release) were only suggested. After surge in warranty charges and customer complaints VW issued a letter and addenum stating that oils meeting VW502.00 spec must be used.

I suspect Toyota had similar problem. Engine that is heavy on oil lubricated by substandart (for this particular engine) oil. The same oil in different application could have been good enough.

 

Krzys

 

PS I think Subaru is following VW and Toyota lead in this regard. Instead of specifying better oil they chose to decrease OCI for all turbocharged engines.

[Beanboy]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned too often is size and comfort. I know many feel the Legacy for example has crappy passenger footspace thanks to the ECM being under the kick plate. Same goes for seat comfort in the Outback versus the Volvo XC, as well as rear seat width with two large baby seats back there.

 

All cars are suffering from size bloat, but in the case of the Legacy versus the competition, the difference is large enough to make a difference.

 

Legacy should be able to fit three across in the back without the really tight squeeze it is today, and there should be decent clearance to fit any rear-facing baby seat without it being jammed up against the back of the front seats.

 

With that said, I think the Legacy should borrow the wheelbase, length and most of the width from the Tribeca. Sure it will add weight, but the Legacy is the large car offering from Subaru.

 

Splitting the width difference (68" versus 73") between the Legacy and Tribeca would put a new Legacy right in the middle in terms of size versus the competition (say around 71"). Going to the Tribeca wheebase would still make it the shortest of the competion at 108". Overall length it wouldn't be the longest, but it would be close at 191".

 

Shows you just how small the Legacy really is versus the competition when using the Tribeca specs, it still wouldn't be the largest call overall in the class.

[SLegacy99]

No complaints here if there were a bigger Legacy. Though I would want to see the Impreza move up a bit in size and have something smaller behind that.

[Beanboy]

I think the Impreza has moved up for 2008 now being based on the Legacy chassis. I think it may be on the small size verus the competition, but I think it is much closer than the Legacy is.

 

It does open up the bottom of the line though. Other makers have stepped up to fill in with their subcompacts from overseas, not sure if Subaru would be willing to try and compete in that market though, since a smaller engine would be needed from overseas market. Right now they are keeping things simple with 2.5L NA and turbo variations, along with two H6s engines, but both are in higher cost/margin vehicles.

[SLegacy99]

It wasn't all that long ago that we had the Impreza with the 2.0L. Why not bring it back in N/A form. Seems like it would be worth the investment for Subaru to offer a subcompact, given that I see more Fits and Yari everyday.

[chenc544]

Subaru already has subcompact cars for Japan. The R2 and R1e are Subaru's k-car entries in the JDM. Both of them have very small engines, less than 1 liter if IIRC. Of course they don't fit in the SOA's AWD only marketing pitch so until SOA changes that I don't think they will make it over to the USDM.

I don't think there will be a lot of MPG to be gain with the AWD system regardless of the engine size. Even the Suzuki's small SX4 only gets 21/28 with its 2.0L engine, not a whole lot better than Impreza 2.5i's 20/27.