One of those threads...Which would you buy - CPO BMW 335i 6-spd or new LGT 5-speed

[JoeFromPA]

Hey Ctat - Yes, my appliances will cost me about $2100-2400 for a new stainless steel fridge, oven/range, sink, and dishwasher. Microwave might add a little to that.

 

I'm using ikea cabinets (actually one of the top-rated cabinets), granite TILE (1/8th of the expense of a granite slab) countertops, and that's the major stuff.

 

I've priced it out around $5000-5500 and I am expecting to go up to $6000 once I get into it.

 

I'm also doing all the work myself...or near enough.

 

Joe

[Guest]

Consumer bragging galore

 

America at it's best!

[rocket]

I would say go for the 335i.

 

It is a great car as well as a good looker. The B is nice but in a MUCH different league.

 

I have already pre-ordered a 135i with a sport package 36 out the door plus tax

[twisted]

Not that I am a 335 owner but i did tk one for a nice long test drive. It was the 335i coupe. with red/blk leather interior.

I came out with the following conclusions:

-The external looks and sound of that exhaust on the 335 were awsome.

-The transmission was good too and so was suspension

-The interior compared to the legacy was a DISAPPOINTMENT FOR ME. Seat leather was sup-bar compared to the LGT and so was the dash color scheme, materials and layout. Granted the seats were supportive and there was solid build quality.

-However nothing on that car justified the 45K+ price tag.

 

Now if u want to compare the 2 cars then a fair comparision would be

STOCK vs STOCK or NEW vs NEW or MODDED vs MODDED or USED vs USED.

 

Pereformance ('>' equals better/faster)

Stock 335 > Stock LGT (AP Agt 1 fixes that lack of low end on the LGT)

Modified LGT > Modified 335 (bang for buck considered)

 

Price (the bmw owns the legacy on this one)

New 335 > New LGT

Used 335 > Used LGT (with lots of money left to mod)

 

So if ur considering a used car, then compare the used BMW with a used LGT. The LGT makes a better used car. U can pick one up for 18-20k and spend 2K in performance mods, 3K in suspension tires &wheels and hv urself a 335 killer for under 25K.

 

And if u hv another 3-5 K to spend, then for 30K you will have a beast of a subaru WHICH IS ALSO RELIABLE.

 

And a new BMW 335 starts at 45K decently optioned with less rear seat room than the LGT. A used 335 one will cost u about 34K and another 2K in mods brings it to 36K.

 

Value for money the LGT wins hands down..... POSEUR FACTOR the BMW wins.

 

If ur gonna keep the car for a while get the subie but if ur likely to trade it in 2-3 years treat urself to a bmw purchase or better yet a lease.

[JoeFromPA]

Hi twisted - Thank you for your contribution but you kind of lost me on the poseur factor. You didn't care for the interior, otherwise it seems like a great car.

 

From what I've read, Ap stage 1 won't really bring the LGT's low-end anywhere near the 335. It seems like good low-end smoothness and power are one of the sacrifices to be made when looking at LGT vs 335.

 

It's great that you made your own comparisons, but I'm not. I'm comparing a used 335 ~$35k for a CPO warranty and full maintenance to 100k (this includes items like clutch, which you can expect to replace on an LGT under 100k...) to a new LGT going for ~25-26k.

 

Neither car is a poseur. They are what they are: sports sedans. Both make compromises. One is more luxury oriented than the other, but both are luxury oriented.

 

People think of BMWs as snobby and poseur-related partly because people buy them because they are BMWs, and people buy them despite their high price. But Honda inflates their prices too, compared to their competitors. Value is in the eyes of the purchaser.

 

Anyway....BMW, Honda, and Subaru all have their share of foolish people stating how their mfr of choice is the best. All I'm looking for is automotive bliss

 

Anyway....at the end of the day, it'll probably be the Subaru. But we'll see.

 

Joe

[smokinduc]

I was looking at a 335Xi before I got my 08 SpecB. Althought I like the SpecB, I regret not going for the few extra $$ on a lease and getting the 335.

[JoeFromPA]

Smokinduc - Why? What is it that you regret?

[smokinduc]

Smokinduc - Why? What is it that you regret?

 

The SpecB is a very nice car and well equipped. It just doesn't stir the soul - or should I say MY soul as I thought it would. Hopefully by the time I get done will all the mods I have planned (wheels/tires, exhaust, sway bars, short throw shifter, ECU flash, etc) that will change. Should a car that is supposedly biased toward the sporting crowd require another 5K or so to begin to get it to perform? Add that to the 34K paid, and we are just about 40K. The 335Xi coupe starts at 42K.

 

Second guessing oneself is a real bitch.

[SWP-LegacyGT]

You have an LGT, correct?

 

well my name doesn't say SWP_LegacySpecB does it?

[kkerley33]

Hi Joe,

 

I am a first time poster, but am going through a similar situation right now. My first AWD vehicle was a 2002 Audi A6 bought as a CPO in 2003. It had 13,000 miles on it and paid $32,000. Now 4 years (and 100,000 miles later) I am debating between a 2006 A4 Quattro and a LGT Limited. (the new A6's are not sports sedans anymore)

 

Here is really where my debate ended. CPO Audi A4 (tech, S-Line, Premium, Cold Weather Packages) is $27,000 with 20,000 miles. CPO LGT Limited is $18,500 off the lot with 25,000 miles.

 

For $300.00 I am adding a Parrot CK3300 Bluetooth Kit. For under $600.00 there are more than a handful of forum members that would build you a Xenon Retro Headlight Kit and for $4000.00 you can do a Crap Load of engine mods that will push you close to 450 HP and take Corvettes, Porsches, and Vipers on the quarter mile (not that you are going to do that). And for those prices that is installed at a shop.

 

If you want some of the Nicesities you find in the BMW, you should look at buying a Legacy GT (non-limited) and go to a custom shop. Since the Seat Heaters are standard, you could have a custom Napanee Leather interior installed for around $1500. They could also do some pretty serious audio upgrades that would blow that stock system in the BMW's away.

 

In My opinion with the Audi vs Suby situation I am in, the Suby was the best price out the door and gave me a lot of room to play with for upgrades, etc which I have done with every car I own. Realistically by having an aftermarket Bluetooth (which most work better than OEM anyways) you are only losing memory seats, and stereo mounted audio controls over the BMW (features wise). Heck, even an upgraded bilstien suspension can be put in for $500 or so if you have a good shop mechanic that knows how to source parts.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I have driven the 335ix and the A4 and the LGT. They are all great cars. Pure Value though, the LGT wins hands down. (which is sad because the GM at the VW/Audi/Porsche Dealership is one of my best friends and this will be my first car purchase out of 3 that didn't come through his dealership).

 

KAK

[Vimy101]

I would say go for the 335i.

 

It is a great car as well as a good looker. The B is nice but in a MUCH different league.

 

I have already pre-ordered a 135i with a sport package 36 out the door plus tax

 

I would say the Spec.B does more things better than the 335i. Inclement weather? Spec. Bad roads? Spec. The 335i is quite, nay!, very good but it isn't an all weather GT.

[spicytuna]

The 335i is an awesome vehicle but I never really considered it since it's in a different category in terms of pricing. Sure, you could compare a new LGT with a used 335i but if you do that, the variables start to expand to the point where it's apples and oranges.

 

Perhaps you should compare a BMW which is a few years old to an LGT which is a few years old for a more well-rounded comparison.

 

In any event, I'm sure I would have stuck with my LGT even I had the disposable income for a BMW. I really need the AWD out here in the mountains and I'm sure I'd be extremely hesitant about taking a new BMW on a gravel/logging road.

[SubLo]

The SpecB is a very nice car and well equipped. It just doesn't stir the soul - or should I say MY soul as I thought it would. Hopefully by the time I get done will all the mods I have planned (wheels/tires, exhaust, sway bars, short throw shifter, ECU flash, etc) that will change. Should a car that is supposedly biased toward the sporting crowd require another 5K or so to begin to get it to perform? Add that to the 34K paid, and we are just about 40K. The 335Xi coupe starts at 42K.

 

Second guessing oneself is a real bitch.

 

...and somehow your couldn't figure this out before you bought the Spec, before your lurked this board, before you a test drive???. If you feel that way and regret your choice so much, nothing is preventing you from selling/trading for what you really want to "stir your soul."

 

The 335i/xi is a stupendous car - no doubt. I drool over it every time I see one (which is literally about 10 times a day in my neighborhood). I did not want to be one of the sheep. I'm overrun here with Bimmers especially the 335. I hate the snob factor. If I lived somewhere else, I might think differently.

 

I love my Leggy and the absolute joy and relatively inexpensive mod experience it's been. I've been able to craft a beyond kick ass performer and add subtle uniqueness to an already impressive little sh#!-eating grin mobile per my desire and am extremely happy with the result. I've loved every single one of the "stare" or "gasp" moments (and sometimes nods/grins/drools) of puzzlement from other drivers at the appearance, sound and performance of my ride! Beyond that, I just love looking at, working on, cleaning, maintaining and most of all driving the car. If you don't feel that way and think the Bimmer would cause you to feel this way, heck... again, sell the car and get what you think will make you happy

[camber]

I drove a 6MT 335 sedan and coupe before getting the spec. B. It was about $10k more for a similary equipped 335.

 

These are the big things the disuaded me from the 335

 

1. Sports suspension was too harsh for street driving or for a true GT

2. Steering in the latest 3 series is the numbest it's ever been(although it does take out road irregularities quite nicely).

3. Cheap interior materials compared to the Legacy. Tap the plastic on the dash and you'll get the feeling of playschool palstic

4. I did not like the Interior design

5. Gearbox and clutch wasn't as nice as the spec. B 6MT

6. I knew that everyone and their grandmother would have one in a couple

months(was I right on that one!)

7. Insurance

8. small rear seats

9. electric fuel pump(when I was looking at the 335 three cars were waiting for fuel pumps) issues and overheating issues

10. expensive parts and services.

11. no real rear OEM lsd

12. No manual oil dipstick(They have a wacky electric oil sensor that takes half an hour to register a proper reading)

 

Things that I liked

 

1. Good low end response or "street start" capabilities for a turbo engine(Still not as good as a naturally aspirated 3.5L Nissan or Toyota V6 in this regard though)

2. very nice brakes

3. RWD

4. Engine smoothness

5. decent tuning potential

6. low ride height

7. adjustability of the seats

8. nice handling

9. decent aftermarket

[camber]

The SpecB is a very nice car and well equipped. It just doesn't stir the soul - or should I say MY soul as I thought it would.

 

Well... From driving past XI's I can tell you they aren't as involving to drive as their RWD counterparts or the spec. B.

 

Actually, the new generation of 3 series is probably the most numb feeling out of all the 3 series that I've driven. However, I've notice that trend in BMW for a while now. They seem to be trading driving feeling for speed with their most recent cars.

[JoeFromPA]

Hey guys,

 

Bunch of responses:

 

Vimy - The Spec.B. is not an all-weather performer out of the box. It's a 3-season performer in my area. Neither in the 335 an all-weather performer out of the box; both require either a new set of wheels/tires or just tires depending on your needs.

 

kkerley - Great post. Your point is very well taken. Bright, clear headlights are important to me (the rotating function is less-so), and it looks like the LGT is setup for that already for a minor cost. I may add an aftermarket navi system w/ bluetooth if my wife gets a bluetooth enabled phone; something I might do anyway, so I shouldn't count bluetooth in the BMW's camp. I think the LGT is really the best platform of all mentioned for tuning, as it offers cheap(er) replacement parts and an easier ability to work on the car. And I think this might be the first time in my life that I can afford a good tuning car, and afford the tuning.

 

On a side note: if you don't HAVE to have all-wheel drive, test drive a 335i sedan with the sport package and the 6-speed transmission. Much like Porsche is able to make each 911 substantially different in character (i.e. Carrera, Carrera S, Carrera 4S, Etc.). The suspension on the 335i sport is much, much different than the XI suspension (even with sport package), and it provides a much more engaging drive...from steering, to suspension, to road feel. The transmission is smoother to drive as well, and there is more power NOW due to less parasitic drivetrain loss from only RWD. Overall, it's a very different driving experience. I don't think alot of people realize how wide the range of driving experience is between something like a BMW 328i automatic, non-sport (the most commonly sold version), a 335i coupe 6-speed, and a 335xi automatic, sport or not.

 

Camber - All BMW 3-series XI's have non-sport suspensions, even the sport package equipped versions. Definitely makes them less involving to drive.

 

Regarding the rest of your post, I definitely have to disagree with you on a number of things. I do agree that the latest 3-series is the most numb of all the 3-series, but it's still a driver's masterpiece in this years offerings (i.e. the sedan is the best feeling of the current sport sedan's on the market, short of say the RS4).

 

You say the sport suspension is too harsh? That's really odd. The one I drove would never, ever be called harsh except by people who drive Lexii or a 7-series...

 

The steering in the current 3-series is, actually, one of the better systems in the past 7 years outside of the e46 ZHP (m-suspension package 2003-2006). Did you drive an active-steering version? Again, your comments on the steering and the harsh ride make me wonder if something else was going on...

 

Cheap interior materials compared to the Legacy GT? Cheap plastic on the dash? Huh? The dash on the 3-series is texturized rubber, and it's thick. Below that is wood trim or aluminum (and both are real). And below that is a variety of rich plastic, texturized rubber, more trim. I dislike the spartaness of the interior of the 335, and the lack of ergonomics, but it has very few cheap pieces (the headliner is cheap, and a few other spots). I know some people disagree on the interior of a car, but referring to it as playschool plastic seems a little out there.

 

Electric fuel pump and heating issues - As addressed earlier in this thread, this is accurate. The first few thousand 335's had some fuel pump issues. It was corrected and I haven't seen a 335, made in the last 9 months, require one.

 

The first 6 months of 335's equipped with either automatic or not equipped with the sport package did not have external oil coolers. A major gaffe on BMW's part (I imagine it was cost-saving as they thought those equipped as such would not be driven hard enough to need one). This has since been rectified.

 

Lastly, you comment on good low end but not as good as a 3.5 V6 from Nissan or Toyota. Huh? If you imagine low-end to be 1500-3000rpms, as I think most people do, then the 335 has substantially more low-end than any other sub 4.0 liter engine on the market. It has 300 lb/ft at 1400 rpms, which then stays at 300 lb/ft until 5000 rpms. It has no lag either. It's always on.

 

The one thing I'll say here is that people who aren't familar with an inline six engine might not realize how much thrust is available. The engine is so smooth, and so linear, that you don't realize the speed you are gathering.

 

I understand and can agree with some of your comments, but those I addressed above make me wonder about your point of reference and your experiences. If you seemed less explicit on the fact that you did test drive one, I'd wonder if you had.

[krzyss]

I would say the Spec.B does more things better than the 335i. Inclement weather? Spec. Bad roads? Spec. The 335i is quite, nay!, very good but it isn't an all weather GT.

 

If you use proper tires both cars can handle wet roads, ice or snow.

 

Krzys

[Vimy101]

Hey guys,

 

Bunch of responses:

 

Vimy - The Spec.B. is not an all-weather performer out of the box. It's a 3-season performer in my area. Neither in the 335 an all-weather performer out of the box; both require either a new set of wheels/tires or just tires depending on your needs.

 

 

True. A winter rubber set up is required.

 

We must also be aware that we are comparing a 6 cylinder I engine with a flat 4 banger. That is a significant difference "right out of the box".

[JoeFromPA]

Yes...but that's a ridiculous analogy. Your comment was that the spec.b. could handle all weather...inferring the 335 could not. Well, both are 3 season cars in stock format.

 

Their engines being different out of the box has nothing to do with your original comment. That's like saying "Yes, but one has a 3" longer wheelbase". Huh?

 

Joe

[SubLo]

If you use proper tires both cars can handle wet roads, ice or snow.

 

Krzys

 

Sorry, but I call BS. The RWD 335, VDC, TC, "snow" tires or not, cannot get through the same roads when compared to a similarly equipped AWD LGT or OB. No way.

[Vimy101]

Yes...but that's a ridiculous analogy. Your comment was that the spec.b. could handle all weather...inferring the 335 could not. Well, both are 3 season cars in stock format.

 

Their engines being different out of the box has nothing to do with your original comment. That's like saying "Yes, but one has a 3" longer wheelbase". Huh?

 

Joe

 

Ridiculous?

 

Symetrical AWD vs RWD? C'mon.

 

The notable difference of the different engine sizes and configurations hadn't been mentioned previously but they are germane to the conversation.

[JoeFromPA]

Sublo - Sure; just like the outback can't handle some of the articulation needed in bouldering ....but a RWD 335i with good snow tires can handle steep icy inclines, unplowed snow, hard packed snow, and icy conditions. Just like, well, any car can with the right tires.

 

Vimy - Your germane point is a rather mundane fact of comparisons They usually have different characteristics.

[tommypenguin]

Lets clear the air on this, a lgt or spec b is a 4 season car right out of the box, you can make due with the re92's if you don't get a boat load of snow and you drive slow you should be fine. With the bimmer, right out of the box on z-rated tires, there is no way you will go more than a driveway's length w/o decent tires period. My brother had a z3 3.0 5mt that he sold a couple years ago, when it snowed and he was on stock tires, he literally couldn't drive anywhere even in an inch deep of snow, the car would get parked with any unpredicted snow storms until he coughed up the money for snows.

[Vimy101]

Sublo - Sure; just like the outback can't handle some of the articulation needed in bouldering ....but a RWD 335i with good snow tires can handle steep icy inclines, unplowed snow, hard packed snow, and icy conditions. Just like, well, any car can with the right tires.

 

Vimy - Your germane point is a rather mundane fact of comparisons They usually have different characteristics.

 

RWD with good snows is not a match for AWD with snows. Neither is it quite as good on wet roads.

 

The engine point may be mundane but it is germane nonetheless. Just in displacement alone we're talking close to one liter or a 33% difference.

[camber]

Camber - All BMW 3-series XI's have non-sport suspensions, even the sport package equipped versions. Definitely makes them less involving to drive.

 

The new three series are less involving to drive period.

 

Regarding the rest of your post, I definitely have to disagree with you on a number of things. I do agree that the latest 3-series is the most numb of all the 3-series, but it's still a driver's masterpiece in this years offerings (i.e. the sedan is the best feeling of the current sport sedan's on the market, short of say the RS4).

 

Err.. The RS4(I've acutally driven this)??

 

That thing is understeer monster. Numb is Numb... I find that BMW has been resting on its laurels lately.

You say the sport suspension is too harsh? That's really odd. The one I drove would never, ever be called harsh except by people who drive Lexii or a 7-series...

 

Ok... The sports suspension on the 335i is kidney punching hard on road irregularities. It actually made my GF feel sick during our test drives. It's less compliant then a Lamborghini Gallardo(which I drove back to back).

 

The steering in the current 3-series is, actually, one of the better systems in the past 7 years outside of the e46 ZHP (m-suspension package 2003-2006). Did you drive an active-steering version? Again, your comments on the steering and the harsh ride make me wonder if something else was going on...

 

I hate active steering. Ever wonder why the BMW M cars don't carry this invention?

 

Active steering takes away from steering feel compared to a standard rack and pinion setup.

 

Hmm.... Your comments are making me wonder, about how authoritative your opinion on reviewing a cars driving experience.

 

Cheap interior materials compared to the Legacy GT? Cheap plastic on the dash? Huh? The dash on the 3-series is texturized rubber, and it's thick. Below that is wood trim or aluminum (and both are real). And below that is a variety of rich plastic, texturized rubber, more trim. I dislike the spartaness of the interior of the 335, and the lack of ergonomics, but it has very few cheap pieces (the headliner is cheap, and a few other spots). I know some people disagree on the interior of a car, but referring to it as playschool plastic seems a little out there.

 

Nope... The interior of the new 3 series has been pretty much panned by hardcore Bimmer guys. Cheapest interior of all the new bimmers.

 

The first 6 months of 335's equipped with either automatic or not equipped with the sport package did not have external oil coolers. A major gaffe on BMW's part (I imagine it was cost-saving as they thought those equipped as such would not be driven hard enough to need one). This has since been rectified.

 

AT with cooler's still experince overheating issue.

 

Lastly, you comment on good low end but not as good as a 3.5 V6 from Nissan or Toyota. Huh? If you imagine low-end to be 1500-3000rpms, as I think most people do, then the 335 has substantially more low-end than any other sub 4.0 liter engine on the market. It has 300 lb/ft at 1400 rpms, which then stays at 300 lb/ft until 5000 rpms. It has no lag either. It's always on.

 

Errr....

 

Well take a look any comparison test with the 335 versus it's competitors where they have stats of 5-60 and 30-70 MPH. You'll be amazed that the 335 is a few ticks slowers then the better naturally aspirated rivals.

 

I understand and can agree with some of your comments, but those I addressed above make me wonder about your point of reference and your experiences. If you seemed less explicit on the fact that you did test drive one, I'd wonder if you had.

 

I can say the the same to you. Unless, you test drove the one of the super special edition 335s that no one else has driven.

 

Anyways, at the end of the day buy the car which you prefer and can afford. Although, that has been mentioned coutless times before in this thread.