Pinks in GT wagon (dissenting opinion)

[gtguy]

Interestingly, Mach V Dan's extensive post on suspension bits contains this passage, which sums up my opinion of the STi pink springs on a USDM (wagon, manual transmission) car: [b]Pros of spring upgrades: Improved handling, appearance; affordable Cons: Potentially worse ride comfort; Reduced utility from lowered ride height; possibly mis-matched spring/dampening rates.[/b] This, of course, with some caveats from the old man side of the room. Yes, the "Hallelujah" chorus prompted me to see what the deal was about. All raves and no negatives makes the journalist in me skeptical, so on they went. Pros: 1. They look cool, if you like the looks of a lowered car. I don't, at least not one that is as lowered as the STi pink springs leave a USDM Legacy GT. Speculation is that the increased weight and softer strut damping over the JDM car accounts for the ride height variance. Whatever it is, the wagon is about an inch down all the way 'round. We measured clearance at the midpoint of the car, at the side skirt, between my wagon and a sedan with identical wheels and tires. There was only a half-inch less ground clearance compared to the sedan, at the center of the car. 2. If the road is smooth, they handle quite well. Confidence level goes up, and the car seems to carve the arc somewhat better, percentage-wise, maybe a 10% improvement over the same car with the 20mm JDM swaybar and Cusco front lower brace. 3. Body roll is diminished to a slight degree. Yes, the car flattens out, but not like a go-kart. This makes sense, given that the ride quality doesn't diminish all that much from stock. Again, we drove my car, and a stock sedan back to back. Ride quality was all but identical between the two cars. 4. Bump compliance improves over certain bumps, most of my reason for undertaking this experiment in the first place. The USDM car has a slightly overdamped quality. Now that the pink springs are on the car, I see why this compromise was made (more about that in the "Cons" section). My hope was that a slightly stiffer spring would bring the strut and spring into better compliance. This seems to happen over certain bumps, which the car deals with better than stock. 5. Dive and squat are marginally reduced. Cons: 1. The most significant con is that the ride is jittery over bumpy roads. Further, potholes and bumps that the stock car just soaked up, the STi sprung car delivers a nice slam for your money, unless you roll over those gradual, more hump-like bumps that the springs/struts like. Over a rather bad road, the car bucks, with a hobbyhorse effect that is characteristic of lowered cars. 2. Because of the lowering, the strut begins life compressed at least an inch. Hit a bump, and rather that getting the full travel, you get a significantly compressed travel. As a ride and handling artifact, the car is actually softer over certain bumps, and depressions in the road than the stock car. So the tradeoff for the diminished highway float at high speeds is some rather unsettling lift, coming out of those truck-made depressions in the road, at roughly the same speeds. If you hit one of those same depressions at speed, you get an unsettled "Slam, bounce, bounce." Not cool. 3. Sharper bumps are a pain in the butt, and you lose the smooth, composed ride of the stock car. 4. If you live in an area with particularly bad roads, as do I, you will find the unsettled ride quality bothersome to a great degree. Essentially, if you don't have bad roads, you'll think everything is just fine, and what is this cranky old S.O.B. talking about. :lol: You'll live with these springs happily ever after, and it will be all good. So, there are the pros and cons as I see them. They are coming off of my car the first day it's warm enough to break out the tools. After that, they will find their way to the Classifieds, for a happy number, something like $350 to someone's door. Kevin p.s. Apologies for the length.

[GTCanada]

Nicely done. I don't disagree with any of the above and aligns pretty well with my feelings and comments on the springs. I would be more pro on some (#3) and less con on others (#1) but overall the springs are a performance / ride quality compromise. The importance of each of the listed pros and cons will vary somewhat by individual situation (example, the roads here are quite good). Tom

[rao]

I should have known...... The tools are standing by :D

[hal9e3]

Kevin, your comments are The Economist's version of my Reader's Digest post on a similar thread regarding my car, that is to say, dead on. I don't know how old you are but our butts appear to be about the same age:D I'll probably keep my springs on until the shocks wear out, then change them both. I'd like to find a good integrated setup, either separate springs/shocks or a coilover setup. B4_Maniac mentioned the HKS Hipermax LS as a good streeet setup. I'm going to check it out.

[racerdave]

Thanks for the 0.02. So -- and I realize this would be a total guess -- would this spring change improve with a JDM Bilstein (stiffer, meant for a lower spring)? Regardless, I'll probably start with tires and bars as first mods... and take it from there.

[gtguy]

[quote name='racerdave']Thanks for the 0.02. So -- and I realize this would be a total guess -- would this spring change improve with a JDM Bilstein (stiffer, meant for a lower spring)? Regardless, I'll probably start with tires and bars as first mods... and take it from there.[/QUOTE] I would guess that it would, Dave. Also, as I said, if the roads around you don't suck, all is well. :lol: Kevin

[Opie]

[quote name='racerdave']Thanks for the 0.02. So -- and I realize this would be a total guess -- would this spring change improve with a JDM Bilstein (stiffer, meant for a lower spring)? Regardless, I'll probably start with tires and bars as first mods... and take it from there.[/QUOTE] I'll let you know soon...I've been riding on the stock struts with pink springs for about a month now, as soon as the JDM front struts mounts arrive (any day now) I'll install the Bilsteins that are sitting in my garage and be able to make a comparison. :D

[racerdave]

[quote name='gtguy']I would guess that it would, Dave. Also, as I said, if the roads around you don't suck, all is well. :lol: Kevin[/QUOTE] Um, I live in Wisconsin... with frequent trips to IL. Roads suck? You tell me. ;)

[racerdave]

[quote name='Opie']I'll let you know soon...I've been riding on the stock struts with pink springs for about a month now, as soon as the JDM front struts mounts arrive (any day now) I'll install the Bilsteins that are sitting in my garage and be able to make a comparison. :D[/QUOTE] Very cool Opie. I'm sure we'll all be interested in that comparo. :cool:

[gtguy]

[quote name='racerdave']Um, I live in Wisconsin... with frequent trips to IL. Roads suck? You tell me. ;)[/QUOTE] :lol: Wisconsin seems to spend even less tax dollars on road improvements than Illinois. I live on the North Shore, where the roads (except for Sheridan Road, through Wilmette) are lovely. I had to go down into the city to find some bad road. :lol: Kevin

[Edvig]

Kevin, how different did you find the pink spring set up to the SPT set up you had on your REX?

[gtguy]

[quote name='Edvig']Kevin, how different did you find the pink spring set up to the SPT set up you had on your REX?[/QUOTE] Absolutely no comparison. The damping and ride control of the SPT setup was light years ahead of the STi pinks/stock struts. This is because, in my opinion, the 1" drop moves the strut past the stiffer, initial part of the damping curve. But the ride quality wasn't anywhere near as nice, either. The SPT stuff was definitely on the "sport" side of the equation. With the STi springs/stock struts, you could drive around normally. You wouldn't think "Man, this car is stiff!" As I said, it feels like stock, but works better in many situations. Frankly, if they lowered the car the specified 15mm, they would probably still be on the car. An inch is a bit much for this old man, though people who saw the car and knew cars were quite complimentary. :lol: The SPT stuff also had better overall handling, because it was designed as a package. But I wouldn't drive cross-country on the SPT stuff. No way. On the other hand, I definitely would on the STi springs. Handling-wise, I'd give it a push, but the Legacy, stock, handles much better than the stock WRX, IMHO. It's when the going gets bumpy that the SPT kit came into its own. You could go flying over speed bumps at 30-40 mph with the SPT kit. This just isn't the case with the STi spring kit, because you still have the stock struts and their softer damping, which accounts for the fine ride quality. Kevin

[Edvig]

Thanks Kevin. :) I have the SPT kit on my WRX and love the ride. I'm playing around with ideas on how to make my 2.5i wagon handle better without compromising the ride quality. Edvig

[sandwood]

I'd agree with Kevin's pros and cons, though I still need more wheel time with the pinks on to get a better sense of handling closer to the limits. Ride quality on bad roads is, of course, a very subjective thing. I find the ride with the pinks to still be more than acceptable - quite similar to my wife's mini cooper (which has the stock 15" rims) - and DC has very bad roads as well. I also agree that damping and control are compromised at high speed - I took a high speed entrance ramp the other day which has a very bad bump/seam, and the car did not control it's bounce all that well - it did not "bounce, bounce" as Kevin said, nor would I say that it floated, but it was nonetheless poorly controlled though not downright unsafe. I've taken that corner at the same or higher speeds in an 04 s4 and that car - which otherwise had similar ride quality to the legacy with pinks - exhibited a tightly controlled body motion in distinct contrast to the legacy. I will stay with the pinks for a while yet, but later next year I will probably want to change the struts or sell the pinks and go with a packaged setup. I still think (subjective, of course), that the pinks and stock struts represent a net improvement over stock. thanks for the write up Kevin.

[sde]

WRX_LGT has pinks on his 5EAT wagon too .. i wonder if he's seen this thread.

[racerdave]

Opie got the top hats for his JDM Bilsteins that he'll be using with Pinks, so we'll get a good before/after comparo with pink/stock and pink/bilstein pretty soon.

[Opie]

[quote name='racerdave']Opie got the top hats for his JDM Bilsteins that he'll be using with Pinks, so we'll get a good before/after comparo with pink/stock and pink/bilstein pretty soon.[/QUOTE] Yep, just trying to find some time to get them in with the holidays now!

[2Simpletons]

gtguy, Thanks for the great writeup-The roads really suck bad where I'm at (My STi drives me nuts) but my Legacy is very forgiving and gentle. I was thinking about getting the pinks, but you've made my mind up as I (and definitely my wife) don't want this thing to takes ruts and bumps like the STi. So, if I wanted to improve body roll/oversteer etc., would thicker f/r bars be a good idea? Maybe just new endlinks? These won't negatively affect the ride will they? Thanks.

[gtguy]

[quote name='2Simpletons']gtguy, Thanks for the great writeup-The roads really suck bad where I'm at (My STi drives me nuts) but my Legacy is very forgiving and gentle. I was thinking about getting the pinks, but you've made my mind up as I (and definitely my wife) don't want this thing to takes ruts and bumps like the STi. So, if I wanted to improve body roll/oversteer etc., would thicker f/r bars be a good idea? Maybe just new endlinks? These won't negatively affect the ride will they? Thanks.[/QUOTE] If you want to size-match rear bar to front, go for it. I have yet to see a valid reason why anyone would ever touch a front swaybar, unless someone with a WRX wants to go full-on with the SPT kit, which has a smaller front swaybar for the sedan. No ride quality diminution will come from adding sways, unless you go 30mm, or just weld some hunks of rebar down there. :lol: Kevin

[SC GT]

gtguy, How do you think progressive springs like the Tein High Techs would work with stock struts? The High Tech specs are: 3.1-4.7 front, 4.1-6.5 rear, with a 15mm drop front and rear on JDM Bilstein struts. SC

[gtguy]

[quote name='SC GT']gtguy, How do you think progressive springs like the Tein High Techs would work with stock struts? The High Tech specs are: 3.1-4.7 front, 4.1-6.5 rear, with a 15mm drop front and rear on JDM Bilstein struts. SC[/QUOTE] First off, I don't like Tein springs. Period. I have never heard anything good about their lowering springs, nor have I experienced anything good. Having said that, I like the higher rate at the rear. All things being equal, you wind up with a more neutral car. I would guess that, like the STi springs, a 15mm drop on the firmer JDM Bilsteins would mean something around an inch drop on the USDM struts, which, speculation has it, are from the normally aspirated Legacy GT in the JDM. Were it I, no way would I put anything intended for Bilstein struts on the stock USDM struts. The valving differences are almost certainly (we don't know for sure, but can sure guess) huge. Kevin

[SC GT]

[quote name='gtguy']Were it I, no way would I put anything intended for Bilstein struts on the stock USDM struts. . . .[/QUOTE] You mean, no way would you [b][i]ever again[/i][/b] put anything intended for the Bilstein struts on the stock USDM struts . . . ;)

[SUBE555]

So here's the big question, I know I'm a n00b and all by not using the search, but is there any good pics of GT Wagons with the pinks? I've been looking around and all I seem to find is sedans. Me wanna see wagons!

[racerdave]

Yeah, a newb with 4,753 posts

 

Search!

 

Heck, you don't even have to do that! Just go to the bottom of this post where "similar" posts are listed... (copied and pasted from below...)

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5571

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5640

[SUBE555]

Yeah, I know, cal me lazy.

 

I really want to see one with the Bilsteins now! After seeing the setup on Opie's car, that looks pretty slick! Handling should be spec-on for what I'm looking for too.