Engine and Turbo Blew

[blackfang]

Per SOA manual it is 7500 miles for 2005. I do not recall getting a letter from SOA changing it.

 

Krzys

Subaru recommends that in severe service, and moderate to hard acceleration frequently that the oil be changed every 3750. Refer to your owners manual for what falls under severe service.

 

New for 2008: All turbocharged models are considered to be operated under severe driving conditions and require the oil interval of 3,750 miles or 3.75 months.

 

I know it's not clear, but the service interval being 3750 is intended to be retroactive to all the other turbo subaru's

[SSpeed]

Locked up bearings are a pretty good sign of lack of maintenance...

 

Wow Opie, I really appreciate all you've done for the Subaru community, but in this thread the whole Subaru dealer mentality just really disappoints me... Catastrophic turbo shaft failure is going to put a ton of shavings back through the oil, metal shavings circulating through the oil and getting in to the bearings are never what would be considered a good thing...

 

Why is Subaru's first line of defense to blame the owner rather than looking at all possible situations?

[SunburnNYC]

Wow Opie, I really appreciate all you've done for the Subaru community, but in this thread the whole Subaru dealer mentality just really disappoints me... Catastrophic turbo shaft failure is going to put a ton of shavings back through the oil, metal shavings circulating through the oil and getting in to the bearings are never what would be considered a good thing...

 

Why is Subaru's first line of defense to blame the owner rather than looking at all possible situations?

 

because the owner is at fault a good bit of the time.

[blackfang]

Also this thread may be of some info

 

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1259545

 

From the May2007 TechTIPS bulletin:

 

We have received several inquires into the engine oil requirements for 2005MY and later vehicles. The owners’ manual refers to ILSAC and API oil grades, but you may ask “what are they”?

 

There are several organizations that develop, categorize, and license oil grades. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) and the American Society of Testing Materials (ASTM) are involved in the performance parameters of oil development, but we will limit this discussion to the ILSAC and API organizations.

 

1) ILSAC – International Lubricant Standardization and Approval Committee. This committee is made up of American and Foreign Automotive Manufacturers that develop the standards/requirements for oil grades.

 

2) API – American Petroleum Institute. This organization licenses the approved oil with an API certification mark (‘starburst’ mark) which identifies the oil as meeting the current requirements set forth by ILSAC. The API also has a symbol of the ‘donut’ which contains their own API category identification, oil viscosity, and energy conserving designation, if applicable. The API has their own set of categories to identify oil grades. Prior to ILSAC’s inception, the API was the only organization to develop oil grade standards.

 

Since ILSAC’s existence in 1992, they have developed 4 different categories of oil grades, they are:

GF-1 first appeared in 1996

GF-2 first appeared in 1997

GF-3 first appeared in 2001

GF-4 first appeared in 2004

 

The categories are backwards-compatible with all previous categories, however they are not cross-compatible. For instance, GF-4 can be used in-lieu of GF-3, but GF-3 cannot be used when GF-4 is required.

 

API has a total of 11 gasoline engine categories in their history, starting with SA through SM (SI and SK have been omitted from the sequence).

 

Since the new GF-1 category, the API has worked to standardize their categories with the ILSAC standards. Although the categories are not entirely similar, they are compatible up to the current category. API has a separate energy conserving designation “Energy Conserving” which must be present for compatibility with the ILSAC categories.

 

Compatibility Chart

GF-1 / SH (Energy Conserving)

GF-2 / SJ (Energy Conserving)

GF-3 / SL (Energy Conserving)

GF-4 / SM (Energy Conserving)

 

All 2005MY:

Oil grade: ILSAC: GF-3 - or - API: SL (Energy Conserving) if not available SJ (Energy Conserving) may be used, SL is still the preferred grade.

 

All 2006MY and later:

Oil grade: ILSAC: GF-4 - or - API: SM (Energy Conserving)

 

GF-3 cannot be used in any 2006MY or later Subaru vehicles. The GF-4 category oil has the lowest phosphorus content of any oil preceding it. Phosphorus has been found to reduce the effectiveness and longevity of the emission system. There are several other important changes that were implemented to increase fuel economy and overall longevity of the engine.

Although most oils will contain both the GF-4 and SM (Energy Conserving) designation, it only needs to meet “GF-4” OR “SM”.

 

Currently the FHI/SIA factory fill oil is 0W-20 mineral oil for the H4 SOHC(w/o VVL) and 5W-30 mineral oil for all others. The oil is designated as SM and GF-4 and is manufactured by Shin-Nihon Petroleum (FHI) and Shell (SIA).

 

Clarifications:

1) Synthetic oil can be safely used provided the viscosity and oil grade classifications as noted in the Owners Manual are used. The oil change interval noted in the maintenance schedule must still be adhered to.

2) Severe Driving Conditions will require the oil change interval to be increased to 3,750 miles or 3.75 months. New for 2008: All turbocharged models are considered to be operated under severe driving conditions and require the oil interval of 3,750 miles or 3.75 months.

[SSpeed]

because the owner is at fault a good bit of the time.

 

That is a HUGE assumption...

[blackfang]

From my experience, half of the turbo failures we have seen are from lack of maintenance. I can't speak for the rest of the dealerships.

[SSpeed]

From my experience, half of the turbo failures we have seen are from lack of maintenance. I can't speak for the rest of the dealerships.

 

That's fair and I don't doubt that... Is that based on low oil levels? Lack of maintenance meaning going longer than the Subaru recommended 7500 mile oil changes? (which we can all argue is ok or too long for extreme conditions, but Subaru initially recommended it)

[blackfang]

That's fair and I don't doubt that... Is that based on low oil levels? Lack of maintenance meaning going longer than the Subaru recommended 7500 mile oil changes? (which we can all argue is ok or too long for extreme conditions, but Subaru initially recommended it)

From what I have seen, it was from the customers lack of maintenance. In fact one of them was, oil change intervals being "I can't remember when I changed it last or how often". The others never checking the oil and the oil levels being low.

[SSpeed]

From what I have seen, it was from the customers lack of maintenance. In fact one of them was, oil change intervals being "I can't remember when I changed it last or how often". The others never checking the oil and the oil levels being low.

 

Yeah, that's not good... in times like a shaft breaking, how honestly do you know if it was low on oil or if all the oil was lost with the shaft breaking? That is a lubricated part and if it is gone, then oil will go out where it used to be.

[blackfang]

Yeah, that's not good... in times like a shaft breaking, how honestly do you know if it was low on oil or if all the oil was lost with the shaft breaking? That is a lubricated part and if it is gone, then oil will go out where it used to be.

I can't say for sure. When you get a car coming in with a broken shaft, who is to say how much oil was lost. Then again, I do not see that many turbo failures where the shaft breaks. I do get some where the turbo isn't spinning or noisy ones(due to similar causes).

 

I will say that if you change the oil every 3750 and document it with receipts, and the turbo goes, it will be much easier to get covered under warranty assuming you are within it.

[SunburnNYC]

That is a HUGE assumption...

 

no it is experience!

[Guest]

I can't say for sure. When you get a car coming in with a broken shaft, who is to say how much oil was lost. Then again, I do not see that many turbo failures where the shaft breaks. I do get some where the turbo isn't spinning or noisy ones(due to similar causes).

 

I will say that if you change the oil every 3750 and document it with receipts, and the turbo goes, it will be much easier to get covered under warranty assuming you are within it.

 

Given that the turbo was revised for 2006 (different part #), and AFAIK all failures reported at this board are for 2005 (ok, this is not representative for all LGT/OBXT turbos, but a very large sample of them) - you should give 2005 owners benefit of doubt.

 

Clearly, SOA knows there was an issue with 2005 turbos. They should cover these failures (and without any goodwill bullcrap) unless there are absolutely obvious signs of user abuse or neglect.

[krzyss]

Subaru recommends that in severe service, and moderate to hard acceleration frequently that the oil be changed every 3750. Refer to your owners manual for what falls under severe service.

 

New for 2008: All turbocharged models are considered to be operated under severe driving conditions and require the oil interval of 3,750 miles or 3.75 months.

 

I know it's not clear, but the service interval being 3750 is intended to be retroactive to all the other turbo subaru's

 

I read and reread owner's manual. Servere service is only for very cold and short trips. Nothing about engine braking or hard acceleration.

 

How is it "service interval being 3750 is intended to be retroactive to all the other turbo subaru's" but Subaru explicitly mentions 2008 only?

Are they afraid of unhappy owners from 2005 to 2007?

 

Krzys

[blackfang]

Given that the turbo was revised for 2006 (different part #), and AFAIK all failures reported at this board are for 2005 (ok, this is not representative for all LGT/OBXT turbos, but a very large sample of them) - you should give 2005 owners benefit of doubt.

 

Clearly, SOA knows there was an issue with 2005 turbos. They should cover these failures (and without any goodwill bullcrap) unless there are absolutely obvious signs of user abuse or neglect.

Then talk to them about it.

 

I read and reread owner's manual. Servere service is only for very cold and short trips. Nothing about engine braking or hard acceleration.

That bold info is in addition to the severe service, I did not say it was a part of the severe service.

 

How is it "service interval being 3750 is intended to be retroactive to all the other turbo subaru's" but Subaru explicitly mentions 2008 only?

Are they afraid of unhappy owners from 2005 to 2007?

 

Krzys

 

You are barking up the wrong tree. If you disagree with changing your oil every 3750 then that is fine. Change it whenever you like.

[krzyss]

You miss the point.

When I was buying the car OCI stated in owner's manual was 7500. Well as far as I can tell 2005 Subaru Legacy GT still requires oil changes 7500 miles (non severe schedule).

 

Now. Subaru changes OCI for 2008 claiming that all turbocharged engines should use now "severe" schedule. What about 2005, 6 and 7? Are 2008 inferior or SOA is not willing to admit that original OCI was wrong (or oil spec is wrong as Subarus in Europe, even turbocharged ones, use 9000 miles OCI).

Admitting to putting improper maintenance in brochure is like opening Pandora's box. Subaru will be liable for may failures. Worse it may get sued by owners claiming that they were misled (remember Mazda, Ford, Hyundai forced to give checks or take cars back when engines did not deliver stated power?) as to maintenance requirements.

 

So SOA plays a game. If engine or engine part (like turbocharger) fails then blame owner. If owner proves that he/she was following maintenance and was for example checking oil levels then do "one time goodwill gesture". I suspect it looks better from financial point of view but...

Is SOA ready for black dot from Consumer Report for engine reliability?

 

Krzys

 

PS I do change oil each 7500 miles. As far as I can tell this is what manufacturer recommends. Dealer recommends 3750 but they would love to see me each 375 miles just to collect money so I trust more manufacturer than dealer.

[blackfang]

You miss the point.

When I was buying the car OCI stated in owner's manual was 7500. Well as far as I can tell 2005 Subaru Legacy GT still requires oil changes 7500 miles (non severe schedule).

 

Now. Subaru changes OCI for 2008 claiming that all turbocharged engines should use now "severe" schedule. What about 2005, 6 and 7? Are 2008 inferior or SOA is not willing to admit that original OCI was wrong (or oil spec is wrong as Subarus in Europe, even turbocharged ones, use 9000 miles OCI).

Admitting to putting improper maintenance in brochure is like opening Pandora's box. Subaru will be liable for may failures. Worse it may get sued by owners claiming that they were misled (remember Mazda, Ford, Hyundai forced to give checks or take cars back when engines did not deliver stated power?) as to maintenance requirements.

 

So SOA plays a game. If engine or engine part (like turbocharger) fails then blame owner. If owner proves that he/she was following maintenance and was for example checking oil levels then do "one time goodwill gesture". I suspect it looks better from financial point of view but...

Is SOA ready for black dot from Consumer Report for engine reliability?

 

Krzys

 

PS I do change oil each 7500 miles. As far as I can tell this is what manufacturer recommends. Dealer recommends 3750 but they would love to see me each 375 miles just to collect money so I trust more manufacturer than dealer.

 

So then keep changing it at 7500 then.

[SunburnNYC]

So then keep changing it at 7500 then.

 

[Guest]

Then talk to them about it.

 

I don't need to, have no issues with the turbo, but I will replace it at some point as a preventive maintenance

 

Point is that the way SOA and dealerships treat customers, even if they repair problems, but throw in the "goodwill bs", is not acceptable.

[krzyss]

I guess that if my engine does not fail then I will laugh last.

 

Krzys

[SunburnNYC]

I guess that if my engine does not fail then I will laugh last.

 

Krzys

 

If you keep changing your oil at 7500 OCI your engine WILL FAIL do yourself a favor and use 3500 OCI

 

-just sayin

[Guest]

If you keep changing your oil at 7500 OCI your engine WILL FAIL do yourself a favor and use 3500 OCI

 

-just sayin

 

<shakes head>

 

Not necessarily. Depends on oil and driving. I suggest krzys sends his oil for analysis (best place is dysonanalysis.com) and see himself.

 

Indeed such a long OCI might be problematic with a poor 5w30, not because of lack of additives (likely there will be plenty left at 7500), but because it will get sheared and also fuel diluted, which lower the viscosity. Also the OEM filter is said to not be great.

 

But with a good thicker synthetic oil and a good filter, and assuming relatively unstressful highway driving, 7500 OCI should be perfectly fine, if the engine does not have issues, like excessive blow-by.

 

All depends. Stop listening to silly Internet scaremongers, do UOA and you will know what's happening in your engine. .

[SunburnNYC]

I'm not trying to scare him... he was doing 7500 mile OCI and the engine failed... dealer suggests 3750 OCI

 

whats not clear here? you wanna continue 7500 OCI?

good luck.

 

 

http://i31.tinypic.com/2iatrhv.gif

[krzyss]

Fuel dillution should not be an issue. My engine is nice and warm at least 30 minutes when driving to work and another 30 minutes going back.

My current job is 50 miles away and it takes me 45 to 55 minutes to make it.

 

I guess I will fork 60 USD for UOA. Maybe go with http://www.blackstone-labs.com for 22.50. I am cheap, sometimes. If I know the shearing is possible problem then all I need is viscosity of the used oil sample.

 

Krzys

 

PS I switched recently (2 oil changes ago) from Mobil 1 5W30 to Castrol Syntec 0W30.

[Guest]

Go with Dyson for reliable results. I use both all the time and can tell the difference. German castol is a good oil, I can imagine doing 7.5k OCIs with it.

[ehsnils]

Go with Dyson for reliable results.

 

Dyson? : http://www.dyson.com