Subaru, Toyota will build small sports car

[BernardP]

...and still not a word about a hybrid or diesel powertrain. Refreshing...

[IwannaSportSedan]

Not bad.

 

Not feeling the quarter windows, nor the blacked out a-pillar. (I don't like that on any car...)

 

Not feeling the mutton-chop side-burns on the front bumper, or the odd-shaped maw on the front. The front edge of the hoodline is knife edged, as is the tail light band on the back... but remarkably little else is that sharp on the car.

 

But it is trying to be sleek. It is small, and likely will be light. Those are good things.

 

The front overhang suggests that the H4 might be entirely behind the front axle centerline. Great for handling... not great for prospects of AWD the way Subaru currently does it.

 

Hopefully if Subaru does a version, it will be a bit better looking in the details department, if they take some of the Hybrid Tourer's sharper aesthetic cues perhaps.

[Beanboy]

The flat 4 really makes sense if you want to design a front mid-engine design with RWD.

 

Only two cylinders long so you can have a short hood, and the whole thing is low and shoved right against the firewall. With electronic accessories being the rage, could probably throw a bunch of the mechanics away from the front of the car and place it on top of the engine.

 

Also thought it would be neat to have exhaust exiting on top of engine. Use similar setup as the 2010 LGT, but flip it around. Have the exhaust go out one side (where exhaust is now on most turbo subarus), then send compressed air on other side through a air-to-water intercooler along firewall down to intake on bottom of engine.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I have imagined a reverse flow pressurized Subaru boxer...

 

Exhaust ports up. right into a turbo. (or two, if we are talking 6 or 8 cylinders...)

 

The turbo blows through either a top mount intercooler, and two intake tracts that wrap down behind the cylinder block, and underneath or through a front mount intercooler that returns to two front-facing under-side intakes.

 

It would be hard, and not real worthwhile for a naturally aspirated engine... it would be hard to get the right intake lengths on the under-side of the engine. A turbo is easier, because forced induction relies less on intake runner lengths for efficient vacuum.

 

And the hot-components up, with heat rising away from the engine (theoretically through heat extraction aerodynamics through the hood...), the turbo would benefit from thermal management, which is less of an effect on an NA engine unless it is tightly packed, and lacks airflow.

 

BMW is using reverse flow on their new TT-V8, and supposedly Chevy is using reverse-flow on their turbo-diesel V8 for their upcoming trucks.

[Spoonwacker]

I rike it.

 

I rike it a rot.

 

[DukeTrout]

I have imagined a reverse flow pressurized Subaru boxer...

 

Exhaust ports up. right into a turbo. (or two, if we are talking 6 or 8 cylinders...)

 

The turbo blows through either a top mount intercooler, and two intake tracts that wrap down behind the cylinder block, and underneath or through a front mount intercooler that returns to two front-facing under-side intakes.

 

It would be hard, and not real worthwhile for a naturally aspirated engine... it would be hard to get the right intake lengths on the under-side of the engine. A turbo is easier, because forced induction relies less on intake runner lengths for efficient vacuum.

 

And the hot-components up, with heat rising away from the engine (theoretically through heat extraction aerodynamics through the hood...), the turbo would benefit from thermal management, which is less of an effect on an NA engine unless it is tightly packed, and lacks airflow.

 

BMW is using reverse flow on their new TT-V8, and supposedly Chevy is using reverse-flow on their turbo-diesel V8 for their upcoming trucks.

 

Nice. I've had a similar thought about a 2-turbo H6. Instead of sequential turbos, mount one small turbo for each exhaust bank, outboard and below the engine. Run the cool side of each into a front mount, then up to the top of the engine to a common intake manifold. Very compact, short exhaust and intake tracts, and also allows you to mount the engine right up against the firewall.

[Viber]

I really wanted to focus on the fact that they are keeping it light and hopefully without any of those luxury features which weight the car down and over-complicate things.

 

If you want cheap, low rent thrills, just get an impreza WRX.

 

I simply do not understand why some insist Subaru should makes cars as well featured as a Coney Island bumper car.

 

It's 2009. The Ford Fiesta, and Mazda 3 now come with better equipment than a 2010 flagship Subaru 3.6 Legacy.

 

Subaru, stop making cheap shit already. Bring over the JDM equipment. Grown up cars for grown up paychecks. Let the kiddies rice around in 5 year old imprezas with glued on jet wings and flame paint.

[Guest]

Wow! The Toyota looks sharp. I really like it. Exterior is good looking and likable right away! (aka no "will grow on you" rubbish). The interior is crap, but it looks like it's concept only design, so that should change.

 

Very nice. Now if Toyota is not coming to the U.S, we could worry how Subaru will look like. If the Hybrid Tourer concept is any indication, Subaru can still design something decent looking despite the 2010 Legacy/Outback atrocities (and to an lesser extent 08+ Impreza).

 

Also judging by the short front overhang, it's RWD only. No AWD thankfully for this car. Questions are what is the weight and what will be the engine options. A 200hp NA wouldn't be bad, but I'd like to see a turbo 2.5L in it or maybe even cranked up 3.6L H6. That engine could be tuned for close to 300 hp and with an MT it would be a screamer.

 

Also the big question will be transmission options. Chances are to keep weight low they could have used the 5MT or the 2010 legacy 6MT as opposed to STI's based 6MT unit.

[nemo]

^ the pic shows a 6MT. dunno which, though :shrug:

 

i do like it a lot, however. it's very sexy. not to sure about the rear lights, but overall i'd buy one. definitely.

[Gasaraki]

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/ap/06869846-6845-4077-8ffd-170f82412f20.hmedium.jpghttp://blogs.cars.com/.a/6a00d83451b3c669e20120a61a5828970c-pi

 

They will show the car at the Tokyo Auto Show.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Also judging by the short front overhang, it's RWD only. No AWD thankfully for this car. Questions are what is the weight and what will be the engine options. A 200hp NA wouldn't be bad, but I'd like to see a turbo 2.5L in it or maybe even cranked up 3.6L H6. That engine could be tuned for close to 300 hp and with an MT it would be a screamer.

 

Also the big question will be transmission options. Chances are to keep weight low they could have used the 5MT or the 2010 legacy 6MT as opposed to STI's based 6MT unit.

 

If the car is RWD only, they are not bound to use Subaru's transaxles.

 

Rumor is that it could use an Aisin unit, like the ones that I think the NC Miata, and the Caddy CTS use... they may not be the same gearbox, but I think they both use an aisin gearbox. I think Aisin is a Toyota supplier, possibly owned by Toyota. Otherwise, it could use a Jatco 6MT, like the ones in the Nissan Z and G-series Infiniti/Skyline.

 

There isn't a huge reason to modify a Subaru/Jatco gearbox back to RWD-only, if the car is different enough to not allow AWD.

[Guest]

A very good point. That's right, Subaru gearbox doesn't lend itself to RWD only layout very well.

 

That's a good news, I guess. Except the heavy STI 6MT, Subaru gearboxes are rather crappy.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I don't mean any offense, but I'm not sure so many of you favor the H6. The Subaru is a front-engined car already and the H6 makes the problem worse. At least with the H4 + turbo, the engine is lighter.

 

Front-engined cars don't handle particularly well by nature; symmetrical AWD requires this configuration (think Subaru and Audi). Although Subarus and Audis can be made to handle well, they can never be mid-engined (FMR) like BMWs due to the AWD.

 

So I ask my question. Why do you want a front-engined AWD sports car? I know that that rally cars are sports cars, so I mean pavement-type sports cars. I don't get it. Wouldn't you want a sports car (again, pavement-type, not rally) to be mid-engined (either FMR or RMR)? I sure would.

 

The Mark IV Supra was one of the best handling production cars. Why add AWD into the mix? If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Well, in Toyota's case, bring back the Mark IV.

 

I agree with most of what you say here.

 

I think you over-state the difference between front engined (engine center over, or slightly ahead of the front axle) versus front-mid engined (engine center aft of the front axle line.

 

The heavier the engine, and the further forward, the more the car will tend to understeer, and weight-bias to the front, that is true... but it is a matter of degree.

 

A low, flat, short-length boxer is basically on the front axle, rather than above it, or forward of it. The H6 is not that much longer, and what it gains in block weight, it loses in ancillary weight. No turbo, no coolant and oil lines, no pressurized intake tract, no intercooler, etc... It used to be a bit bigger of an issue with the EG33 in the SVX, which was based off of the EJ boxer 4. The EZ 6-cylinders are smaller, lighter, more compact engines, with thinner bore walls, and lighter components... Especially the EZ36, which is the same outward dimensions as the EZ30R, through very careful bore and stroke enlargement, but the same deck height. That is possible because none of them are factory turbocharged, where EJ blocks are, and newer designs take advantage of newer metallurgy, manufacturing, and design capabilities. The EZ engines are not that much bigger than the EJ engines, and probably not THAT much heavier. But they are smoother than an H4, and much more powerful than Subaru's current non-turbo 4-cylinders.

 

If traction becomes an issue, the added traction of AWD greatly outweighs the weight location of the engine, which the Subaru boxer is about as good as it gets for front-engine use, and the transaxle is also well behind the line.

 

*It ALL boils down to usage. Is it a fair-weather weekend sports car? Or is it a daily use rain-or-shine machine? *

 

A weekend sports car will always benefit from less compromise. Less weight, less complexity, more robustness, and more direct functionality.

 

A daily driver that needs to get home each and every time, outright purity has less priority over pragmatic traction advantage.

 

And I would greatly agree with you, that for a weekend sports car, an aft mid-engined car would be ideal. I have long wanted to put a boxer and a VW/Porsche style transaxle in an SW20 MR2, longitudinally. Or just buy a nice used Cayman S eventually.

 

But sometimes, tens of thousands of dollars means that you can only buy one car for several purposes... and one would want a daily driver that has to get through weather, but want it to be fun, and efficient, and pragmatic all at the same time. Some purity is lost... but versatility is gained.

 

Subaru tends to be really good at that, mechanically. I wish they were as good at the aesthetics and the options and features lists.

[LongHiway]

I wonder if Subaru somewhat tipped their hand with the 2010 Legacy - let's not go down the entire rat hole but, the Toyota concept has (nice looking) large front fender flares.

[IwannaSportSedan]

I noticed those, don't particularly think they fit well, and really don't like the mutton-chop side-burns on the front apron.

 

The headlights and hood line are ok. Below the break on the front, and down the sides of the car... not so wonderful. could have been better.

[Guest]

Agree here a lightweight RWD coupe with a wrung H6 would totally work. But an H4 turbo would be sweet as well.

[FX35B4]

I like last part.

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QZacNDd6vI]YouTube - Gran Turismo 5 - Toyota FT-86 Concept Video[/ame]

[IwannaSportSedan]

RE-rumored sketches.

 

We've seen this one, and it is one of my favorites:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/toyobaru1.jpg

 

Here are some others that maybe we haven't seen...

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/toyobaru2.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/toyobaru3.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/toyobaru4.jpg

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2009/10/toyobaru5.jpg

 

 

However, I think these may be old... this has a similar grille to the B9 Scrambler. I would think the grille would be 6-sided, something like Legacy or Hybrid Tourer concept, which seems to be their current family resemblance trend.

[HarryN]

Hey Iwannasportsedan, those images were proven false.

 

Source: http://www.worldcarfans.com/109100722291/subaru-sports-coupe-design-sketches-leaked-update

 

They are not factory leaks.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Just putting up what Autoblog is reporting this morning.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/08/purported-renderings-of-subarus-ft-86-sports-coupe-emerge/

 

Never said it was anything more than a rumor, or that I liked the first one... but thanks for the link. Every bit helps.

 

And if it is false, I hope they do better than that, not worse.

[HarryN]

Just putting up what Autoblog is reporting this morning.

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/08/purported-renderings-of-subarus-ft-86-sports-coupe-emerge/

 

Never said it was anything more than a rumor, or that I liked the first one... but thanks for the link. Every bit helps.

 

And if it is false, I hope they do better than that, not worse.

 

Amen to that!

[nemo]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/12/2009/10/500x_FT-86_Tokyo_Motor_Show-TOP.jpg

http://cache-06.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/12/2009/10/500x_Toyota_FT86_2.jpg

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0iGSfc9Erw]YouTube - æ±äº¬ãƒ¢ãƒ¼ã‚¿ãƒ¼ã‚·ãƒ§ãƒ¼2009 出展車両紹介 ダイジェスト編[/ame]

 

sexy.,

[LongHiway]

I noticed those, don't particularly think they fit well, and really don't like the mutton-chop side-burns on the front apron.

 

The headlights and hood line are ok. Below the break on the front, and down the sides of the car... not so wonderful. could have been better.

 

Keeping on the theme, the headlights are similar as well.

 

Ya know, connecting far too many dots, you could say the economy screwed Subaru's plans by delaying the sports coupe. Announcing this, even if only available much later would have taken a lot of heat off of the 2010 Legacy.

[fishbone]

So this thing will be marketed here under the Subaru badge and as a Toyota in Japan? I find that an odd choice. I would have expected it to be the other way around. Isn't Subaru dilluting their brand image (awd) by doing this?

[IwannaSportSedan]

One would think so. But who knows why Subaru makes some of the decisions that they make.

 

I don't know why Toyota would be willing to sit back and NOT sell a compact RWD sport coupe in the US... where they badly need an injection of some excitement.