This wasn't the handling i was expecting when I bought the legacy...

[Guest]

for a wagon, get the AVO 20mm one. don't go JDM 20mm because its too flexible for the wagon rear.

 

With stock suspension it's okay. But, yes, with Bilsteins get something stiffer.

 

Indeed a good idea would be to buy something stiffer (and adjustable) right away.

[itsme]

Tires first.

Then sways.

Then more if you desire (springs and struts or coilover)

 

that's the order I went. I went with a wheel and tire upgrade. Then f&r whiteline adj. sway bars($310 for both). That is the biggest improvement in handling. The ride is the same but, all of the roll is gone. then I got h-tech spring($170 shipped) to get rid of the squat and dive. The ride is very smooth and I can out corner most cars with no drama.

[emlevins]

No, they are NOT great for normal driving. RE92s are downright dangerous in wet (hydroplane pretty badly) and don't stop the car quite well...

 

Agree...and agree with everyone else who suggests tires first (GY F1 GSD3s are terrific in the summer - recommend Nokian WRs otherwise) then RSB then springs. Transforms the car.

 

Good luck.

[gfxdave99]

+1 on the hydroplaning, i unfortunatly had the re92s on during my 3000mi road trip in sept and during heavy rains on the way back they would like to dance around a lil if i got too close to the groove where the water was

[mcsquish]

+1 on getting new tyers! I hydroplaned turning after a stopsign and bairly threadded my wagon between a telephone pole and guide wire. I drove VERY slow after that and got rid of the RE's.

________

Hair problems forums

[LRegvall]

A change in tires has made a big difference, even without any other changes. I put 225/45-17 G-Force KDWs on my wagon and I feel much more confident with the handling. They are also incredible in the rain. The RE92s enhanced all the stock imbalances in the chassis - going from terminal understeer to whip oversteer in a flash. It was like driving on ice. Now the new tires compensate for some of the imbalance. But I am planning to add sway bar(s) and probably wait on struts and springs. I thought of starting with the rear only (either JDM or whiteline) to see how it feels. Does anyone know if the 20mm whiteline bar needs bracket bracing? I presume the JDM 20mm doesn't. By the way, my other car is a Contour SVT and the handling is incredibly well balanced. I think the European Fords are pretty well dialed in for handling.

[itsme]

Whitelines don't have bracing. Mine are fine so far and I do hard canyon runs once a month in my wagon.

[wukindada]

After tires & sways def. Bilsteins!!

 

That was the single best handling mod I have done to the car:)

[Guest]

After tires & sways def. Bilsteins!!

 

Words of wisdom.

[edkwon]

Everything your describing is characteristic of factory tires and factory suspension, clearly you are a suby newb because previous owners all know to upgrade tires, springs and sways ASAP for biggest improvements in handling. They have the car tuned for ordinary ppl, not ppl who like to drive.

 

Ed

[Guest]

I have been messing with the handling of my car since the first month I got it. My experience is that one should do it in following order:

 

1) TIRES TIRES TIRES

2) dampers and springs BEFORE sways

3) rear sway or both sways

4) any other auxilary mods - bushings, control arms, etc.

 

I don't think one should even bother putting aftermarket springs on the stock dampers, because it will kill them in no time and will yield crappy ride anyway. The only exception might be JDM GT or JDM SpecB springs as they (mostly, small drop in front) retain ride height and firm up things.

 

Now with SpecB Bilsteins and SpecB Pinks and JDM GT rsb I don't feel I need full set of sways - the body roll is gone, and the car goes like on rails. Adding full set of stiff bars might be too much and may make the ride unnecessarily harsher.

 

I am going to get full bars just to experiment (just bought a set of Swift bars), but mostly really because I am getting another LGT which I will not be lowering (JDM GT Bilsteins with JDM GT springs will go on that car) and in that case stiffer bars will be beneficial to remove body roll.

[Guest]

turbodave, I still regret I haven't bought your car!

[pdw]

My experience has been that better tires just highlight how bad the stock springs and especially dampers are. I agree that the RE92's aren't great. However, if somebody is cost constrained, I think putting the $600 or so new tires would cost towards dampers and springs is a better plan.

 

I think it's more fun to have limited but controlled grip.

[Guest]

My experience has been that better tires just highlight how bad the stock springs and especially dampers are. I agree that the RE92's aren't great but if somebody is cost constrained, I think putting the $600 or so new tires would cost would be better served by getting dampers and springs.

 

Well, agree, on second thought. Stock dampers perhaps suck more than tires. Reality is if one wants to have good handling on LGT, both dampers and tires need to go.

[LRegvall]

I hadn't really focused on the dampers. For me it feels like when I go into a turn, the rear falls away, pulls weight off the front and the front doesn't want to rotate (which feels like it has enough roll stiffness). It seems to me that the way to fix that is to jack more force/weight to the front with more rear roll stifffness. I guess if the rear damper is giving up too easily that would also contribute to loosening the front in a turn. Sounds like I'll need to look into some new dampers as well. And the Bilsteins are the consensus favorite?

[whitetiger]

the front wont turn due to lack of front end grip. tires and proper dampers will fix this. the reason why the back will break away on stock tires is because you will usually enter in to a turn too quickly and have to let up which puts all the weight to the front and removes traction from the rear breaking it loose. a good set of tires will make the grip and handling characteristics more predictable so you can go through a turn smoother. if you just get sways, then the back end will just breack loose even more during weight transfer. This si why its alwsy best to get dampers and tires first.

 

somepeople like the bilsteins but i am partial to coilovers. they are the best match for spring and shock and you can adjust every thing to your liking. I dont like having to dael with ride height differentials between front and rear. and not ebing able to set camber back to spec because the car is too low and there is not enoguh adjustment on the stock camber bolts.

[Guest]

Certainly coilovers give more control and are a great option for demanding driver, especially when cost is no object. Apparently Tein coilovers can be rebuilt for reasonable price ($300), but they will need more frequent rebuilds than Bilstein struts/shocks.

 

As far as front camber is concerened. Stock bolt with Bilsteins and Pinks is good for -1 deg camber. More camber can be gotten with an aftermarket bolt - franz posted a thread with link to it (like $25).

 

Whitetiger, there was no time for a ride in your car , so I am not yet swayed into coilovers But the more I drive on my current JDM SpecB setup the more happy I am, especailly after ditching concrete hard RE070s.

[LRegvall]

In my FWD Contour I would throw the car into a turn hard on the brakes. The weight would jack into the fronts lightening the rear and allow the front to rotate. This generated the lift throttle oversteer that was balanced by the front wheel drive. This was improved and made less dramatic when I fattened the rear bar. Unfortunately the rear bar kept popping its mounts until, with the help of my dealer mechanic, it broke my subframe. But essentially the fatter rear bar improved the turn in and didn't require as much turn-on-the-brakes driving - lift throttle was enough to rotate the car. The AWD changes the equation a bit and I appreciate your collective insights on improving the Sube's balance.

[OhBe1]

for a wagon, get the AVO 20mm one. don't go JDM 20mm because its too flexible for the wagon rear.

 

IIRC, the JDM 20mm is hollow, about the equivalent of an 18mm solid bar, or about 65% as stiff as the AVO or other solid 20mm's.

 

If I were changing only the rear, I'd go JDM. And an alignment, trying to pick up some negative camber.

[Guest]

for a wagon, get the AVO 20mm one. don't go JDM 20mm because its too flexible for the wagon rear.

 

That depends. I also thought so when I was running on JDM GT Bilsteins/springs, now on JDM SpecB Bilsteins/SpecB Pinks, I think it's alright - the springs removed the body roll and the car is actually balanced.

 

I have set of Swift bars coming, so I'll experiment, but it's not given I won't go back to JDM GT bar.

[Garandman]

I have been messing with the handling of my car since the first month I got it. My experience is that one should do it in following order:

 

1) TIRES TIRES TIRES

2) dampers and springs BEFORE sways

3) rear sway or both sways

4) any other auxilary mods - bushings, control arms, etc./////

What he said....

[LRegvall]

How much are the Bilsteins? Are you using the SpecB Bilsteins or are there others that are cheaper? Where's a good place to get them? Thanks.

[turbodave]

Ok, guys, everyone is saying tyres, tyres tyres...

 

From my experience of driving many FWD and in my younger years many RWD cars, although tyres allowed for greater cornering G's, the inherrent handling characteristics remained. I've had my 1970 mini nearly a decade, and around more tracks and twisty UK roads than I can think, yet the one thing I haven't changed in all those years is the suspension geometry. Going from Falken road-biased, to Yoko A008's, then AO32R's, makes a HUGE difference to my track times, but the inherrent handling has always been the same.

 

Are things soooooo different on a 4wd car???

 

Don't get me wrong - I know it will make an 'improvement' - and I can understand the difference a decent set of covers would make - but these alone wont change the understeer characteristics surely?

 

That said - I guess any tyre that comes on a 'road car' is aimed at doing 30k miles, not having fun!!!

 

I really, REALLY REALLY like the appearance of the factory wheels, so want like to retain those - which I guess narrows the range of rubber available.

 

What do folks reccomend? I'd like something that is usable in all weathers. I'm a VERY cautious driver in the winter, so not too worried about snow performance. Dry performance is the target area, but something that aquaplanes / tramlines is not what i want from my daily driver.

 

Equally - If i want a harsh ride like a go-cart, I'll go out in the mini

[rexster]

you're right that better tires aren't going to change how the car behaves. you'll just have to push it slightly harder to get the understeer. I recently added a whiteline adjustable rear sway bar and set it to 20mm, the same as the JDM rear bar in terms of stiffness. i have 225/45/17 Eagle F1 GSD3 tires on 17x7.5 Volk rims which are much lighter than the stock rims. The tires are great - but they're not all season tires. The car is better behaved with the rear bar. If you go into a corner too fast it will still understeer. But on throttle through a corner and out of the corner it will actually oversteer a little. The back end feels a little better connected overall. Next spring I'm going to upgrade the shocks/springs and throw on the matching whiteline front bar and increase the back to 22mm.

[LRegvall]

I like the effect of my 225 BFG G-Force KDWs (on the stock rims which I also like). I have used the earlier version exclusively on my SVT Contour. While they haven't eliminated the inherent imbalance in the LGT's stock suspension they have smoothed it out significantly until I replace the rear sway bar (and progressively other things). They make the car feel less treacherous when pushed. They also have worn very well for a very sticky tire (been getting 40-45,000 miles on my Contour with a 300 treadwear rating) and they have been incredible in the rain. They are very resistant to hydroplaning (70+ in driving rain with almost no float) . I am less worried about snow because I don't drive in much and even the stock M&S RE90s weren't that great in the snow. I guess chains may be needed at some point (if the car takes chains). The thumping from the tires was noticeably less with the BFGs relative to RE90s but they do howl a bit (I think that is the result of being a sticky tire that lasts a long time). The howl is not all that bothersome though. I also looked at the Kumho ECSTA SPTs and the Avon M500s in the same size but picked the BFGs based on my experience with them and the Tire Rack comparison tests. I do like the existing aspect ratio as a compromise for good handling on roads with crater sized pot holes.