Window Closes on SOA LegSti Sedan

[w_country14]

Honestly, the legacy spec b really isn't needed. What SOA should have done, is added more power (not too much, but some) to the Spec B, or scratched the spec B all together and called it the legacy sti. How many fing models do we want? Legacy sti, legacy gt, legacy spec b, legacy non gt, legacy superman. Freak, The easy way to fix this is drop the stupid spec b crap and and add sti to the car. Shouldn't be that difficult Heck, Chevy added an SS model to alot of its cars, why can't there be a STI Impreza, Legacy and Forrester? Or even a tribeca? That is what they should be doing. The STI name automatically is atributed to performance, and they should market that as much as they can.

 

Change the spec b. to STI. 99.9% of drivers don't even know about the legacy, let alone the "spec b" but I am sure more know about the STI.

 

+ 1 Billion. The SS line for Chevy and the SRT line for Dodge should be used as exemplars. The Impreza STI has set the stage, now Subaru needs to follow up.

[akm3]

Well thought out, but one problem, SOA did NOT try to capture the BMW/Audi market - The didn't ever advertise the Legacy GT.

 

Second, the Spec B is not a WAGON.

 

The height of stupidity . . .

 

The Spec B is a WAGON everywhere else in the world.

 

-Allen

[IwannaSportSedan]

Heck, there are TWO different spec Bs in other markets, the 3.0R Spec B, and the GT Spec B. And the Blitzen. And the Legacy Tuned by STI. All are now offered as either sedan or wagon, with transmission AND color choices.

 

WE don't see a fifth of that stuff.

 

I would agree with Barrok, though, and to simplify things in the NorAm markets, where the Legacy is not as well known as the pac-rim, to keep the trim levels to a minimum.

 

Make the current Spec B into the Legacy STI. Add DCCD and a front LSD back into the 6MT, and add the WRX STI's Turbo and an intercooler to mate that to the Legacy GT's intake, or use the WRX STI's red intake. Tune the car for the same sort of horsepower that the WRX STI makes, or maybe slightly less, like an even 300... Add gold or black brembos, and proper springs and swaybars to the bilstein struts. Offer it in the Legacy GT's colors, with the black/blue or black/black interior. Maybe paint it WRB or San Remo or Solid Red, to really set it off. More aggressive bumper cover, and STI rear lip spoiler. Delete the chrome, or darken it to hyper-black. Wider 18" wheels. Done, even if it would have to add a thousand or two to the Spec.b's price. They would probably sell enough of these to leave the price as is, and make margins on better sales volume than the current Spec.b could hope for.

 

Re-set the Spec.B moniker as an LGT sport option package, as it should have been from day one. BMW 3-series has ZHP, Audi has S-line, Merc has AMG tuning parts for non-AMG models... Even Infiniti makes the sport package mandatory for the manual trans cars... If they can, Subaru can. Here's how:

 

Add the Legacy STI's agressive bumper cover, or a different one with the OB/JDM Spec B size grille,

Keep Spec B's current 18" (widened to 7.5" would be really nice of them...) wheels and tires,

Adds bilsteins/springs/sways, STI Gauge pack installed, and black perf'd leather-only interior regardless of paint color. No standard NAV. Wouldn't necessarily need 6MT, even. $2k option package on any Legacy GT configuration, including WAGON (to which it would allow a manual to be installed as standard equipment, auto BTO optional on both body styles, but leave most of the autos for the GT limited sans Spec.b in the dealer lots...)

 

IF they had that as a package that I could add to a Newport Blue Legacy GT Limited, and I couldn't swing payments on the Legacy STI, I'd jump at a "Spec B package" on a NBP LGT. I'd so choose that over paying 2k for the NAV. Nav would be a different option to choose or not.

 

How many people here would be much more satisfied with that? I probably would be mostly satisified. (always a few little niggles, but right now there are some very BIG issues.) If Spec B were a way to get the suspension, a little visual flair, and black interior on a new (blue) Legacy GT, it would be a no-brainer!

 

Legacy 2.5i (SE, Ltd. pkgs), -> Legacy GT Limited (spec.B sport package) -> Legacy STI (optional NAV. that is about all it would need...)

 

Not that difficult. Neither should it be to actually have some available. Now they can't even feild a Legacy GT in the entire upper midwest region. I've looked, and asked dealers. None. Get on the stick, SOA! I can't buy your product if you don't offer it, and within bounds of appropriate configurability.

[Barrok]

^+1, I agree turning the spec b. into a sports package OPTION is better than having it as a car and then have a legacy sti to finish it off. That would be perfect. Lets call up SOA.

[w_country14]

^+1, I agree turning the spec b. into a sports package OPTION is better than having it as a car and then have a legacy sti to finish it off. That would be perfect. Lets call up SOA.

 

++1

 

A conference call is in order.

[suds2250]

They should make the Spec B suspension an option package, just the struts/shocks and not the alum. arms. If Subaru would ever want to sell a Legacy Sti, the main thing would have to be price. I don't think they would sell more than 1000 cars if the price was more than 33k. Once above that number, and you get into Audi/BMW/infiniti territory where subaru cannot compete.

[IwannaSportSedan]

How would a Legacy STI, as I describe it above, and a few nice touches like factory recaros (like S4's seats, in black/blue alcantara or black/black alcantara) retained acc power, and auto-up-down windows from the factory With 300hp, DCCD (I think it is cool to be able to manage the bias from locked 50-50, to full RWD in manual mode, with a 65% rear bias in normal auto mode) and 300 horsepower not compete?

 

The only additional thing would be a 350hp+ 6-cyl. (3.6 NA at near 100hp/L, or turbocharged 3.0-3.6) to really clobber the competition.

 

With full color choices, and an 5EAT/Sport Shift BTO option and a standard 6MT/DCCD, I think SOA would sell far more Legacy STIs than they have sold Spec Bs; with less choice and less equipment and power, at ~34k MSRP. Even if such an STI would cost ~$36-40k.

 

It would clobber the G35 and G35x performance-wise. (manual trans and variable AWD together, which G35x/G35 Sport doesn't offer, similar HP, and lighter weight.) Acura has nothing at that level. RL is not as sporty, and TL is not as technically capable. BMW won't have that until the 335xi twin turbo sedan arrives, IF it ever does, and it would undercut the V8 S4, and obliterate the A4 V6 Quattro.

Lexus GS350 AWD probably doesn't get close, either. I doubt it has a manual trans. Volvo S60R, again, short on performance.

 

They just better be sure, that if they offer something like that killer for $36k+, they had better offer a legitimate sport option package on the LGT, because the price gap is already pretty large to step above the LGT Limited to a current/real spec B.

 

If the rumors are true, and the 3.0R Legacy is coming to the US, then I can see them carbon copying the current Legacy GT specification to the 3.0R, difference being the engine. I think then, that the GT should get bilsteins, springs, sways, 18"s, and most of the Spec B's suspension package (and what I list above as a "sport package") as STANDARD EQUIPMENT! The 3.0R can take care of the boulevard cruiser crowd, and let the Legacy GT focus on performance, as it should.

 

if SOA can offer the WRX, WRX limited, WRX STI and WRX STI Limited, they can do what I suggest. And if they offer it the way people want, and with a bit of a media push on the performance front (like MG used to, "Safety FAST!") It could sell pretty darn well.

 

As I have said before. The bones of the car is not the problem. the problem is in the details, and the moron bureaucratic-bean-counter-think that is limiting the Legacy's appeal.

[MtnSub]

IwanaSportSedan, your words are so painfully true for those of us that appreciate what the Subaru engineers have delivered. You have made this point so clear numerous times.

 

We cannot influence SOA and we will get what we will get, regardless of the unique opoortunity that has been provided by Subaru engineers and manufacturing people.

 

I would deliver a check today, for the car you have speced (in wagon form of course), but I doubt SOA will deliver the car.

 

Since I am not a weekend track guy, I'm thinking RDX or LR2 in late 2007. I will keep my very special Silver Leg/GT/MT wagon for ski trip runs and mod it slightly.

 

IwanaSportSedan, your message is a loud and clear expression of what so many on this board think/feel and we get it, but SOA is not a believer.

 

Fight On,

[suds2250]

How would a Legacy STI, as I describe it above, and a few nice touches like factory recaros (like S4's seats, in black/blue alcantara or black/black alcantara) retained acc power, and auto-up-down windows from the factory With 300hp, DCCD (I think it is cool to be able to manage the bias from locked 50-50, to full RWD in manual mode, with a 65% rear bias in normal auto mode) and 300 horsepower not compete?

 

I would buy that car in a second. But i don't think that there are enough of us to warrent production. Subaru's biggest problem I think is a lack of brand identity, and when people are going to spend 35k plus for a car they are going to identify with BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Acuras and the like. To them, they want to be seen as driving a expensive car, and Subaru is not that.

[IwannaSportSedan]

Infinity can build the G35x AND separate G35 MT sport.

Acura is coming to the plate with the TL-type S, which this thread is ABOUT.

BMW is known for sport sedans.

Mercedes has a reputation for no real reason. They offer no manual transmissions, and the AMG C-class is quite expensive for not much other than power.

Volvos, Lexus, and on and on...

 

So you and I can agree that there is a market for sporting sedans. I contend that it is growing, with the corresponding waning of the SUV for any number of reasons. People are moving back to traditional cars, coupes, sedans, and even a couple of wagons. Dodge does see it's way to building the Magnum, after all. Last I heard, it isn't an albatross.

 

On the face, I agree with you. People are expecting something for their $35k. I certainly would. I am not sure that it depends on the name as much as everyone thinks, though. If we were talking about the 5 or 7 series BMWs, or cars over 45k, I might think moreso on the brand snobbishness.

 

In the 25-35k Sport sedan segment, I think the real enthusiasm is such that a product can sell on it's merits, and depend slightly less on the brand badge, although there will always be some of that.

 

STI has a name. The WRX STI rocked some pre-conceived notions, and performance enthusiasts know that, and have heard that name, even if they don't cognitively associate that with the same company that produces their cousin's Outback or new Tribeca.

 

Three steps to make a Legacy STI sell.

1. Performance. Without this, the rest is moot. 300hp minimum, more is better. GOOD brakes, not merely adequate. Good performance suspension. No complaints about too much body roll, but also none about harsh response. This isn't a WRX on a rally stage. This is a Legacy on the highway.

 

2. Amenities and choice. Auto up and down windows, and retained accessory power aren't too much to ask. Memory seats, folding rear seats, and aux in are already here. A separate audio system (even if it is a solid console faceplate and looks identical to current, if the faceplate can be replaced with a double-din opening, and the OE stereo core removed, that would be enough. All it needs is circuit separation from ACC behind the face.) A workable ACC system, and I still think the Tribeca's three dial system is nice. A little programming for intuitive operation and it is there.

 

Color and option choice. No one wants to be limited on that when laying down this kind of cash. No one but a Subaru Legacy buyer is as restricted in that way. No excuse. NAV optional. HID optional. Make everything else standard. But offer what people want, and people will respond to it.

 

3. Marketing. This is the big no-show on SOA's part. The legacy sells less than any other model on the subaru dealer lot, since the Baja is bye-bye. Why is it not the most marketed? Is it not Marketing 101 to advertize your least selling product? Considering that the better sellers need less marketing help? I have full confidence that if the cars are on dealer lots, and the ads are on TV, and in the magazines, that actually TELL people that the Legacy is a FAST as well as SAFE car, in all four seasons, how can that backfire? The product is solid at the core. Steps two and three here will sell more Legacy GTs right now, without an STI model.

 

The thing is, that we may say there isn't enough demand. How many LGT listers are selling off their Legacys for other vehicles now? Seems like a rash lately. How many other people who AREN'T subaru drivers might want a car like the Legacy, if they knew about it, and were able to see it?

 

I would venture quite a few. But most don't know about the car. They just don't. Those who do can't find one. Like ME. I talked to a dealer last weekend, and they had another guy come in and did a dealer search for a MT Legacy GT Sedan, which I was also looking for, and they couldn't find a single new 06 or 07, nor a used MT Legacy GT in a five state radius. Sold out.

 

Subaru of America has no idea what Legacy GT demand is. They don't market the car, and lose sales to all the cars you mentioned.

They don't stock the car, and lose more sales.

They refuse to option the car with some buyer choices, and the most limited AND simultaneously most expensive Legacys sit on dealer lots for far too long, and artificially give a false impression of low demand. Offer choices for the money, and tell people about it, and the Legacy would probably be one of SOA's biggest GROWTH models. Maybe it won't surpass outback or forester in outright sales, but i'll bet it will grow much faster, and get back to being a mainstay model.

[PGT]

....so many words

 

let's take a look at Subaru's 2005 results:

B9 Tribeca = 14,797

Legacy = 87,788

Outback = 59,570

Forester = 53,541

Impreza = 33,637

Baja = 6,239

 

The Legacy model alone (taking the sister OB out of the equation for a minute) sells nearly more than all other models combined. Tell me again, from a business perspective, what Subaru is doing wrong on the Legacy where they get it 'right' on the Impreza?

[IwannaSportSedan]

Subtract Outback Sales from Legacy Total. Outback sales are a subset built into the Legacy total. It shows up that way on all of SOA's monthly/quarterly sales reports, as well. I have no idea why they show it in that manner, either.

 

Legacy model sedan and wagon Sales would then show up as 28,218 units.

 

BTW, after 2005, FHI and SOA had the goal to sell 250 thousand units total for the brand in the north american market. Why would that be a goal, if the sales in 2005 were 255,572 units? That is the total of your posted numbers.

 

If you split the Legacy numbers and Outback numbers separately, without duplicating the outback sales in the Legacy column, the total comes out to 196,002 units, which seems a lot closer to what I remember hearing.

 

That way, Legacy model sales are lower than everything but the Tribeca, and the Baja. Baja was an old body style and now gone. Tribeca just came on the market, maybe not even for the full year, and was slow on the uptake, and is controversially styled, and again, SUV sales are down industry wide, something like 24%. Even with that, I'll bet Tribeca sales are higher now than Legacy-model sales, not counting outbacks. I guess we'll see when the 06 figures come out.

 

Do you see more 2005-2007 Legacys on the road than outbacks? I certainly don't. I see a different outback or two in a months time. I have seen THREE individual Legacy GTs on the street since I joined this forum, more than two years ago. I know that is anecdotal, but I am pretty sure that legacy nameplate cars, NOT counting outbacks, are not a big seller.

 

Another anecdotal example... Ramsey subaru, a different dealer than I talked to, and the major dealer in Iowa, has 5 outwardly identical silver outback 2.5i models on their lot, along with another 4 3.0R-powered Outbacks in varous colors. One of the silver, and all of the 3.0R outbacks are 2007, the other 4 silver ones are 2006 holdovers. They have at least 10 new foresters, and I saw two Tribecas. How many Legacys? NONE. Not even the one RBP 2.5i they had previously.

 

They haven't had a Legacy GT in months, let alone one with a manual transmission in probably 6 months now. The salesman said they had no outstanding orders for any, and weren't expecting any 07 Legacy GTs anytime soon. I drive through that lot about once a month or so, after hours (I try not to be a pest to the staff, but I like looking at new cars, and they have porsches too. More Caymans and 911s each than Legacys at any given time, usually.)

 

You tell me how Legacy is outselling everything else on the subaru lot by a large margin, when they aren't even on lots, and can't be found within a thousand miles. Very low production, and very slow replenishment after slow sales.

 

Neither I nor anyone else can add a sales figure to SOA's stats if the cars aren't available.

[Zrrbrrt]

Mercedes has a reputation for no real reason. They offer no manual transmissions,

 

For the record, a 6-spd manual is standard on the C230 and C350 (and SLK280/350)

[PGT]

Subtract Outback Sales from Legacy Total. Outback sales are a subset built into the Legacy total. It shows up that way on all of SOA's monthly/quarterly sales reports, as well. I have no idea why they show it in that manner, either.

 

 

you sure about that? it's not presented that way

[PGT]

 

Do you see more 2005-2007 Legacys on the road than outbacks?

 

yes, by a margin of at least 2:1.

[gargleblaster]

Let's face it... we simply aren't going to get a LegSTI here in any form in the near future.

 

Most of the rest of the world gets many variants of the Leg spec.B. We get only one, and they spend less money marketing that car than Al Sharpton sends to the KKK each year.

 

Most of the rest of the world gets variants of the Impreza WRX STi (spec C, s204, the new Aussie club spec, etc). Even though the STi is selling well in the US and enjoys a great enthusiast following, the only other version we get has leather and a moonroof.

 

My guess would be that last year's spec.B was a test of the waters for a higher-performance model. Many of the 500 units are still available for sale, due to lack of marketing, lack of configuration options, dealer asshattery, etc. So this year we get a non-limited version with some improvements in content. But there is still no marketing for the car, a single color choice, and dealers that turn away sales by gunning for MSRP. Not promising.

 

The last time Subaru had any kind of memorable/widespread marketing was with Crocodile Dundee and some bride in a muddy dress. The US doesn't care about international cycling, and Cheryl Crow is hardly exciting. SoA makes a half-assed attempt at an 'upscale' performance car in the 'any color as long as it's black' spec.B, doesn't tell anyone about it, and then wonders why they won't sell.

 

No, the window has not closed on the Leg STI; it was never opened by SoA to begin with, no matter what Acura/Audi/BMW/Infiniti/Volvo bring to market.

[Hyper Gear]

Hi,

[Hyper Gear]

For me I still love subaru and mitsubishi over acura(honda) any day.. Acura awd is crap, when do you see honda/acura in the WRC, didnt subaru developed their awd for rallying, aslo their boxer engine... To me. I owned a 2006 subaru legacy gt wagon, mazda3 gt sport, 2006 mitsu eclipse gt. my dad also own a 2004 subaru forester xt.. Every subaru lover knows that subaru devloped their cars, when you hit the gas theres no lag on the accelator, its instint, when you drive a honda(acura), or toyota when you hit the gas the rpm goes up, but you dont feel you are going fast..

 

Also, honda crv=real-time, on-damand wait for then it will come. Honda pilot, acura mdx, TL, accords have tranny problems.. The RDX reminds me of a mitsunishi outlander with a $35,000 worth of upgrades..

[Hyper Gear]

The only legacys i seen on dealer lots are 2.5i.. for the past 4-6 months. But outbacks 3.0r and 2.5 xt

[Barrok]

Man, I see about 10 outbacks, maybe even 20 to every legacy I see (mostly 2.5i's). You honestly see 2 legacys for every 1 outback? Maybe utah is just jacked

[fzanetti]

TL-s nice looking car and stuff..

 

.

.

.

 

But it's WRONG wheel drive...

 

Sorry not for me, ACURA the only things that raises my interest is the RL, however not for 50K, and the Ayrton Senna designed NSX, but too difficult to find a good condition/price one on the market...

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[fzanetti]

 

Saw one on the Newburry St in Boston this past weekend, really sexy Bimmer!!!!!

 

Flavio Zanetti

Boston, MA

[tantal]

I easily see 10 outbacks to a GT, not including my GT, of course.

 

A friend of mine is buying a car now, doesn't like wagons, at all. mention the Leg GT to him, and the response - If I'm spending $27 k on a car, I'm not buying a Nissan or a Subaru - I'll get a Saab (9-3) or Acura (TL).

 

Don't know about TL pricing but the Saab is easily doable. People need to be marketed to. They have to feel that others will look at their car and think of the cool, sexy commercial they saw. High school human nature, simple stuff.

 

FWIW

[PGT]

Man, I see about 10 outbacks, maybe even 20 to every legacy I see (mostly 2.5i's). You honestly see 2 legacys for every 1 outback? Maybe utah is just jacked

 

I see a ton of older Outbacks vs Legacy's, but of the BL/BP variant, all Leg's and no OB's. Weird. I see so many Legacy's, I stop caring, whereas when I see a new OB I'm like 'ooh, shiny and body cladding :drool: '

[PGT]

I easily see 10 outbacks to a GT, not including my GT, of course.

 

A friend of mine is buying a car now, doesn't like wagons, at all. mention the Leg GT to him, and the response - If I'm spending $27 k on a car, I'm not buying a Nissan or a Subaru - I'll get a Saab (9-3) or Acura (TL).

 

Don't know about TL pricing but the Saab is easily doable. People need to be marketed to. They have to feel that others will look at their car and think of the cool, sexy commercial they saw. High school human nature, simple stuff.

 

FWIW

 

I'll add that your friend needs to buck up and get some self confidence. What other people think of your choice of car is not important.