October 2004 Car & Driver Comparo - 3RD Place?!?!

[D-2.5-GT]

I think those could all be grouped into the sport sedan department. Maybe the lower priced ones / smaller, but still there none the less.

[TAckhouse1]

[quote name='Driver72']Well of course, but I was just pointing out and correcting him when he said the Volvo passed the LGT by 120 mph. He didn't take into account time to distance...like a 1/4 mile time of 14.0 @ 97 mph compared to another car with a 14.1 @ 100 mph. If one were to look at the 0-100 times of these cars, they would say, "car B passes car A by the time it hits 100 mph" When, of course, that would NOT be the case, since car A gets to the 1/4 mile stripe .1 second sooner, it's still ahead of car B, even though car B is travelling faster. I would hope nobody would race to 120 mph on the street too.[/quote] Thanks for pointing that out. -Nick

[TAckhouse1]

[quote name='Limeydriver']and is much quieter than the Outback. [/quote] Some one double check, But I believe the Subbie was rated quietest of the 4, in all but one category. -Nick

[tallguylehigh]

Ok, heres how I look at the ranking for this test. It is a disappointment that the Legacy got third. But ya know what, the Legacy just isnt a mainstream car, it is for a special kind of buyer- its for a car guy, they dont care about badges or plastics or anything, they want the performance. Yesterday after class, as I was getting into my car, I hear a shout across the parking lot of "No way!!" from a guy I was sitting next to in class. He was wondering who had the Legacy and said he was asking everybody during break who's it was. He loved the car, and then sure enough another guy came over and for the next 20 minutes I pretty much told them everything about the car- the performance, the ride, they were impressed with the looks and the interior. The guy was looking at a TSX but now hes really interested in a Legacy- for some reason I doubt that when you are in a TSX or the Volvo, people will be flocking to see and talk to you about you car. The Legacy name will spread in the US, and its the owners who will have to do it. As a matter of fact at 11 I am showing another friend who is interested in the Legacy. The gauge sweep gets them every time :lol: So, to Car and Driver: take your TSX, I will be over here showing 3 or 4 people the engine to my Legacy GT. :wink:

[BoxerGT2.5]

Here is the Rx-8 OEM tire specs: 225/45R18 91W W BW 018-913 7.0-8.5 (7.5) 25.9 9.2 7.9 12.1 10 804 26 140 A A This is our OEM tire: 215/45ZR17 87Z Z BW 034-961 7.0-8.0 (7.0) 24.6 8.6 7.1 11.4 10 847 23 N/A N/A 140 A A Subaru Legacy GT Turbo They are pretty close. Ask any Rx-8'er or S2000....they suck.

[Ken S]

Well, this is the first and only comparo in the US so far. It would be interesting to see if Automobile, R&T or even Motortrend would have something different to say. Anyone care to craft a carefully worded reply (ie. no whining) to the editors to appear in the November issue of C&D? Ken

[godwhomismike]

[quote name='Ken S']Could you let us know how C&D weighted the rankings other than the usual power, acceleration, handling? A lot of us can't figure out how the S40 took second even if you factor in creature features. Ken[/quote] What do you expect when they are bankrolled by Honda? - Mike

[scubie02]

Man, this is getting embarrassing. I hope nobody comes from other forums and reads this...

[SC GT]

[quote name='GTCanada'][quote]Paul/apexjapan always saying how tossable it is and how it can catch more powerful cars on the track. What gives? Can't blame it all on the tires.[/quote] Chalk it up to the sportier Japanese spec suspension tuning. Tom[/quote] From what I understand, the JDM Leg GT (non Spec B) gets a Bilstein set up with the same RE050 rubber that the spec B gets (but in 215/45/17 instead of the 18" size). I haven't read the article, but it sound like a lot of where the USDM GT got dinged is where the suspension has been "Americanized." Interesting that the car that won is essentially the JDM version of the Accord, with all the bells and whistles.

[Boostjunkie]

[quote name='BoxerGT2.5']Here is the Rx-8 OEM tire specs: 225/45R18 91W W BW 018-913 7.0-8.5 (7.5) 25.9 9.2 7.9 12.1 10 804 26 140 A A This is our OEM tire: 215/45ZR17 87Z Z BW 034-961 7.0-8.0 (7.0) 24.6 8.6 7.1 11.4 10 847 23 N/A N/A 140 A A Subaru Legacy GT Turbo They are pretty close. Ask any Rx-8'er or S2000....they suck.[/quote] I shouldn't need to be arguing about this with you, but just because some of the dimensions are similar, doesn't mean they are the same tire. Here is a description of the RE040 form the Tirerack: [i]The Potenza RE040 is an Ultra High Performance Summer Original Equipment tire designed to complement the performance of sports coupes and sports cars including the Acura NSX, Audi TT, BMW 3-Series, Lexus SC430, Nissan 350Z and Toyota MR2. The Potenza RE040 was developed to provide good traction along with responsive and predictable dry and wet road handling. It is not intended to be driven in the snow. [/i] Here is a user comment on the RE040's from an IS300 owner: [i]These tires came stock on my IS300. So far so good. I have just over 10,000 miles and the treads are still in excellent life. I corner them pretty hard once in a while, and they do the job. They can be better, but thats why there are higher performance tires at higher costs. These tires are not meant for snow, which is okay because they are not designed for it in the first place...that is why there are winter tires. Reading some of the comments about these tires makes me laugh. People expect them to be awesome in every catergories. -- Review Submitted 2004-08-10[/i] Here is one of the RE92: [i]The Potenza RE92 is a High Performance All-Season tire designed for sports coupes and sports sedans. It was developed to provide responsive handling and year round traction, even in light snow.[/i] And a review from another IS300 owner (just chose it to keep the car consistent): [i]This tire is nice and quiet, and has decent responsiveness, but straight-line traction has proven to be horrible. Dry traction is acceptable for an "all season" high performance OEM tire.... but wet traction is a nightmare. Snow traction was even worse last season, and I live in Ohio, not a horribly threatening place for snow. 4-6" is all we get at once. My vehicle has been nearly incapacitated at the end of my driveway, unable to make the rise of just a few inches and get in the garage. For their comfort, wear, and quiet, I would buy them again. Currently 35k on them and theyll easily go another 10+k... but Im going to look into some Contis, Yokos or Michelins next time. -- Review Submitted 2004-08-26[/i] The biggest thing to understand is that when a tire is designed for all-season use, the rubber compound is formulated very differently. All tires have a "glass-point" or a temperature where the rubber basically freezes and offers little to no grip. All season tires, by virtue of having to work reasonably well in sub freezing temperature have their compound biased to a lower temperature range than summer tires. Of course there is no free lunch. By expanding towards the lower end of the temp spectrum, you have to give up some of the high end. This is what makes an all-season tire greasier feeling and more suspectible to chunking when you get on it. In hard driving you end up overheating the rubber. Of course, since tire designers know that most people choosing all season tires will not be pushing the envelope as hard, they usually modify the carcass design as well, and bias it towards comfort. In turn some responsiveness and crispness is lost, but for most folks out there, a quiet smooth ride is more important than razor sharp steering response. Ultimately it's all about compromises. Performance summer tires like the RE040 just has a different set of compromises versus an all season like the RE92.

[Drift Monkey]

Uproar as expected. :roll:

[SUBE555]

I agree scubie02, it is sort of embarrassing if they do come on here and look, but like people have mentioned around here, it's one of those cars people don't see often and generally people are mystified by it. I'll tell people I have a Subaru, they write it off until they see it, sit in it, watch the gauge sweep ;), and go for a ride in it. Then they're off to gaga land. :P For the average person I know, it's exciting, well enough trimmed out, and on and on. I know my dad won't drive it or ride in it. He really likes it. I asked him why he won't, he said because he'll want one then! ;)

[chimp]

If it means less Legacy GT's on the road, it's fine with me :D does anyone even notice another gray TSX?

[GBY]

[quote name='chimp']does anyone even notice another gray TSX?[/quote] Or is it a TL :?

[BoxerGT2.5]

[quote name='Boostjunkie'][quote name='BoxerGT2.5']Here is the Rx-8 OEM tire specs: 225/45R18 91W W BW 018-913 7.0-8.5 (7.5) 25.9 9.2 7.9 12.1 10 804 26 140 A A This is our OEM tire: 215/45ZR17 87Z Z BW 034-961 7.0-8.0 (7.0) 24.6 8.6 7.1 11.4 10 847 23 N/A N/A 140 A A Subaru Legacy GT Turbo They are pretty close. Ask any Rx-8'er or S2000....they suck.[/quote] I shouldn't need to be arguing about this with you, but just because some of the dimensions are similar, doesn't mean they are the same tire. Here is a description of the RE040 form the Tirerack: [i]The Potenza RE040 is an Ultra High Performance Summer Original Equipment tire designed to complement the performance of sports coupes and sports cars including the Acura NSX, Audi TT, BMW 3-Series, Lexus SC430, Nissan 350Z and Toyota MR2. The Potenza RE040 was developed to provide good traction along with responsive and predictable dry and wet road handling. It is not intended to be driven in the snow. [/i] Here is a user comment on the RE040's from an IS300 owner: [i]These tires came stock on my IS300. So far so good. I have just over 10,000 miles and the treads are still in excellent life. I corner them pretty hard once in a while, and they do the job. They can be better, but thats why there are higher performance tires at higher costs. These tires are not meant for snow, which is okay because they are not designed for it in the first place...that is why there are winter tires. Reading some of the comments about these tires makes me laugh. People expect them to be awesome in every catergories. -- Review Submitted 2004-08-10[/i] Here is one of the RE92: [i]The Potenza RE92 is a High Performance All-Season tire designed for sports coupes and sports sedans. It was developed to provide responsive handling and year round traction, even in light snow.[/i] And a review from another IS300 owner (just chose it to keep the car consistent): [i]This tire is nice and quiet, and has decent responsiveness, but straight-line traction has proven to be horrible. Dry traction is acceptable for an "all season" high performance OEM tire.... but wet traction is a nightmare. Snow traction was even worse last season, and I live in Ohio, not a horribly threatening place for snow. 4-6" is all we get at once. My vehicle has been nearly incapacitated at the end of my driveway, unable to make the rise of just a few inches and get in the garage. For their comfort, wear, and quiet, I would buy them again. Currently 35k on them and theyll easily go another 10+k... but Im going to look into some Contis, Yokos or Michelins next time. -- Review Submitted 2004-08-26[/i] The biggest thing to understand is that when a tire is designed for all-season use, the rubber compound is formulated very differently. All tires have a "glass-point" or a temperature where the rubber basically freezes and offers little to no grip. All season tires, by virtue of having to work reasonably well in sub freezing temperature have their compound biased to a lower temperature range than summer tires. Of course there is no free lunch. By expanding towards the lower end of the temp spectrum, you have to give up some of the high end. This is what makes an all-season tire greasier feeling and more suspectible to chunking when you get on it. In hard driving you end up overheating the rubber. Of course, since tire designers know that most people choosing all season tires will not be pushing the envelope as hard, they usually modify the carcass design as well, and bias it towards comfort. In turn some responsiveness and crispness is lost, but for most folks out there, a quiet smooth ride is more important than razor sharp steering response. Ultimately it's all about compromises. Performance summer tires like the RE040 just has a different set of compromises versus an all season like the RE92.[/quote] Dude, I own both...I drive them....they both suck. You can post a glorious review from tirerack but look at the response to whether they would buy the tire again....probably not. From a 350Z owner: One of the worst factory tires I have ever driven on. Even on a dry cold day after tire has warmed up they will still not hold under hard Acceleration. BMW 330I: Worst straight line stability Ive ever seen in a tire. Wanders the full lane width when there are traffic wear depressions in the highway. Purchasing a set of Goodyear F1 GS-D3s to replace them. -- Review Submitted 2004-07-12 And one from a fellow Subie owner: WRX These are absolutly the worst tires Ive ever owned! They are very noisy and wore out very quickly! (and it wasnt due to my driving! These tires would have worn out on an 80 year old lady!) I would definitly stay away from these tires at all costs! -- Review Submitted 2004-06-07 Face it the RE040 are a POS...wear fast, cup like crazy, noise as all hell...and unstable. They are not good tires whatsoever. And considering they can get more expensive than the S-03 Pole...tells you how much of a joke these tires are.

[godwhomismike]

[quote name='Drift Monkey']Uproar as expected. :roll:[/quote] What do you expect when a major publication states that a glorified honda accord is better than your Legacy? I could see if it was the Volvo, then the Legacy, followed by the Audi A4. Everyone seems to have a boner for these front drive hondas. :roll: I guess I can't blame them, if my pockets were being lined with money, I'd start singing Honda's praises too. - Mike

[Boostjunkie]

[quote name='BoxerGT2.5'][quote name='Boostjunkie'][quote name='BoxerGT2.5']Here is the Rx-8 OEM tire specs: 225/45R18 91W W BW 018-913 7.0-8.5 (7.5) 25.9 9.2 7.9 12.1 10 804 26 140 A A This is our OEM tire: 215/45ZR17 87Z Z BW 034-961 7.0-8.0 (7.0) 24.6 8.6 7.1 11.4 10 847 23 N/A N/A 140 A A Subaru Legacy GT Turbo They are pretty close. Ask any Rx-8'er or S2000....they suck.[/quote] I shouldn't need to be arguing about this with you, but just because some of the dimensions are similar, doesn't mean they are the same tire. Here is a description of the RE040 form the Tirerack: [i]The Potenza RE040 is an Ultra High Performance Summer Original Equipment tire designed to complement the performance of sports coupes and sports cars including the Acura NSX, Audi TT, BMW 3-Series, Lexus SC430, Nissan 350Z and Toyota MR2. The Potenza RE040 was developed to provide good traction along with responsive and predictable dry and wet road handling. It is not intended to be driven in the snow. [/i] Here is a user comment on the RE040's from an IS300 owner: [i]These tires came stock on my IS300. So far so good. I have just over 10,000 miles and the treads are still in excellent life. I corner them pretty hard once in a while, and they do the job. They can be better, but thats why there are higher performance tires at higher costs. These tires are not meant for snow, which is okay because they are not designed for it in the first place...that is why there are winter tires. Reading some of the comments about these tires makes me laugh. People expect them to be awesome in every catergories. -- Review Submitted 2004-08-10[/i] Here is one of the RE92: [i]The Potenza RE92 is a High Performance All-Season tire designed for sports coupes and sports sedans. It was developed to provide responsive handling and year round traction, even in light snow.[/i] And a review from another IS300 owner (just chose it to keep the car consistent): [i]This tire is nice and quiet, and has decent responsiveness, but straight-line traction has proven to be horrible. Dry traction is acceptable for an "all season" high performance OEM tire.... but wet traction is a nightmare. Snow traction was even worse last season, and I live in Ohio, not a horribly threatening place for snow. 4-6" is all we get at once. My vehicle has been nearly incapacitated at the end of my driveway, unable to make the rise of just a few inches and get in the garage. For their comfort, wear, and quiet, I would buy them again. Currently 35k on them and theyll easily go another 10+k... but Im going to look into some Contis, Yokos or Michelins next time. -- Review Submitted 2004-08-26[/i] The biggest thing to understand is that when a tire is designed for all-season use, the rubber compound is formulated very differently. All tires have a "glass-point" or a temperature where the rubber basically freezes and offers little to no grip. All season tires, by virtue of having to work reasonably well in sub freezing temperature have their compound biased to a lower temperature range than summer tires. Of course there is no free lunch. By expanding towards the lower end of the temp spectrum, you have to give up some of the high end. This is what makes an all-season tire greasier feeling and more suspectible to chunking when you get on it. In hard driving you end up overheating the rubber. Of course, since tire designers know that most people choosing all season tires will not be pushing the envelope as hard, they usually modify the carcass design as well, and bias it towards comfort. In turn some responsiveness and crispness is lost, but for most folks out there, a quiet smooth ride is more important than razor sharp steering response. Ultimately it's all about compromises. Performance summer tires like the RE040 just has a different set of compromises versus an all season like the RE92.[/quote] Dude, I own both...I drive them....they both suck. You can post a glorious review from tirerack but look at the response to whether they would buy the tire again....probably not. From a 350Z owner: One of the worst factory tires I have ever driven on. Even on a dry cold day after tire has warmed up they will still not hold under hard Acceleration. BMW 330I: Worst straight line stability Ive ever seen in a tire. Wanders the full lane width when there are traffic wear depressions in the highway. Purchasing a set of Goodyear F1 GS-D3s to replace them. -- Review Submitted 2004-07-12 And one from a fellow Subie owner: WRX These are absolutly the worst tires Ive ever owned! They are very noisy and wore out very quickly! (and it wasnt due to my driving! These tires would have worn out on an 80 year old lady!) I would definitly stay away from these tires at all costs! -- Review Submitted 2004-06-07 Face it the RE040 are a POS...wear fast, cup like crazy, noise as all hell...and unstable. They are not good tires whatsoever. And considering they can get more expensive than the S-03 Pole...tells you how much of a joke these tires are.[/quote] Good lord... :roll: If you read what I wrote you could see that I'm not saying that the RE040 is a great tire, or even that the RE92 is a bad one. I simply challenged your assertion that the two were identical, and provided a couple quotes that indicate different driving characteristics. I didn't pick over them to find glowing or damning one. All I said is that they are different tires designed for different purposes/drivers. That's it. You hate your tires... fine... get new ones. I'm probably going to have new wheels/tires waiting at home when I get back from the dealer with the car. I stand by my assertion that the RE040 and RE92 are completely different tires. It seems that your claim of them being identical is based only on the fact that you disliked both. Funny thing I just noticed is that the quotes you supplied reinforce my point. They all mention how noisy, twitchy and fast wearing the RE040's are. Higher noise and reduced treadlife are typical of hi-po summer tires. The lack of straightline stability noted could be due to the faster responding nature of the tire. Now if all the reviews you could find complained of non-existent dry and wet grip, slow and dead steering response and soft sidwalls that rolled over under hard cornering, then you might be on to something. 8)

[Drift Monkey]

[quote name='godwhomismike'][quote name='Drift Monkey']Uproar as expected. :roll:[/quote] What do you expect when a major publication states that a glorified honda accord is better than your Legacy? I could see if it was the Volvo, then the Legacy, followed by the Audi A4. Everyone seems to have a boner for these front drive hondas. :roll: I guess I can't blame them, if my pockets were being lined with money, I'd start singing Honda's praises too. - Mike[/quote] I'ts not a "glorified honda accord" it IS in fact the Accord that the JDM gets. I can honestly say this review doesn't bother me, no does it make me mad they didn't pick the Legacy as top pick.

[racerdave]

The stupid part, IMHO, is that a JDM-tuned Accord won. Good for them. But I do have an issue with Subaru give us a "softened" GT as compared to the JDM GT. But, then again, I can fix that with a set of JDM GT dampers and springs. :D

[scubie02]

What IS funny is that I do remember one review of the TSX when it first came out where it said the suspension was ok, but could be better, and specifically said they should target the WRX's suspension! Thats kind of funny. The Legacy suspension takes some getting used to I think to some degree. When I first went from my wrx I felt like it leaned alot, and I definitely felt I'd have to go alot slower on back roads with it than I had had to with the wrx. Now that I've gotten used to it (and perhaps as tires have broken in etc) I feel a little more confident in pushing it. I think different tires would increase its performance still more. Its probably better than it at first seems (though lets face it there could be less roll). But, there again, when they do a comparo they don't really have time to "get used to" a vehicle--its initial perceptions. Stil, itsnot a big deal. Lets be a bit gracious and not lower ourselves to bashing comments on the other vehicles, which are just fine. Its like watching the olympics when the judges are awarding points based on subjective things--we may feel the judge made a bad call, but thats not the athlete's (vehicle's) fault, or all the people from the country's fault, etc. One person made a call that differed from ours. Thats all. Doesnt make Acura drivers our "enemies", doesn't mean C&D is crooked or we need excuses, etc. Its an opinion. Obviously not the same as ours or we'd all be driving Volvo's and TSX's. Not a big deal.

[racerdave]

I agree with the above, but also look at the G35... that thing is getting addtional power and other tweaks to help it out. Don't forget that the GT very early in its lifetime... improvements may be made *because* of this C&D review...

[SUBE555]

Everyone, get out your pads of paper and pens and get writing. I want more results of the survey before I send in my letter, but I sure plan on letting them know what we/I think.

[bond007]

[quote name='RobCatron']Well, it appears that Patrick Bedard and gang religated our GT Legacy to a disappointing 3rd Place :evil: Here are the Highs, Lows, Verdict: Highs: Three Bags full of squirt, super-readable instrument display, low cowl lets the sunshine in Lows: Rather Heavy clutch, junky sound when the doors close (?!?), lots of obvious plastic around the interior (again ?!?!?) The Verdict: A Getaway Subie for bank jobs I am disapointed especially with the comments on the interior -- really miss the mark! I think that is the most nicely done upgrade on the 2005 model! Specs: 0-60 5.7 secs 1/4 mile - 14.2 @96 top gear (50-70) 8.1 ide dBA = 40 full throttle dBA = 73 lb per bhp = 13.6 These specs, and the HP and Torque ratings were the highest in the comparo the finals: 4. Audi A4 1.8 T 3. Legagy GT Limited 2. Volvo S40 T5 1. Acura TSX sob, sob -- I thought for certain #1 in this one (though I knew C&D were really on about the TSX) Rob[/quote]

[bond007]

I love the power,style and handling of my GT wagon. I'm in 100% agreement with C&D about the "junky" sounding doors. Compared to the TSX and Audi the front doors on this Suby close with the sound,at least to my ears, of a 10 yr. old used car.

[SchnellerGT]

Good news for me...a LGT buyer! 3rd place means maybe fewer people buying it and the price will do anything but rise!