Front + Rear swaybar= overkill?

[dr. pepper]

sounds good guys, thanks for the extremely in-depth help, ill start off with the the h-tech springs and go from there.

[NewScooby]

sounds good guys, thanks for the extremely in-depth help, ill start off with the the h-tech springs and go from there.

 

After getting 16 autocross runs on my LGT this weekend I am undecided on my next suspension upgrades. Using just ION springs and messing around with the air pressure I was able to get my car very neutral. I could get oversteer when I wanted and lots of understeer when I tried to hard. DR. P, sounds like a good plan to run the springs first and decide later.

 

There were 6 WRX's out there with a broad mix of suspension upgrades that I watched. The stiffer cars with coilovers and bigger swaybars skipped around every little bump, where my softer setup was quicker around the course and fairly easy to drive fast. Plus, I was definately down on power to the stage 2 WRX's.

 

I would like to buy adjustable shocks and keep the stock swaybars for now. Now if someone would just offer some decent priced replacement shocks!

[tantal]

Ya, ya, Keefe, you're totally right, but I was trying to be general for the novice.

 

it's all just a checks & balances kind of deal as EACH suspension component works specific duties, but it all works as a SYSTEM. You can easily negate some of the effects of one component by upgrading another (see some examples of what rally cars are designed with unique shocks, soft long traveling springs and little or no sway bars vs. a track car with super stiff springs, big sway bars, and fine-tuned shocks for short suspension travel). There's an application with your name on it.. the main concern is understand what the problem is, there's plenty of us in the forums that can point you in the right direction of what will solve your problem.

[tantal]

Those guys bouncing around, if they had adjustable shocks, don't know how to set up their cars - they should have used lower shock rates. As Keefe said, it's all about balance - not only for the driver, but for the track you are running that day, and even the temperatures (which will affect the tire performance if you're that good - I'm not =|)

 

After getting 16 autocross runs on my LGT this weekend I am undecided on my next suspension upgrades. Using just ION springs and messing around with the air pressure I was able to get my car very neutral. I could get oversteer when I wanted and lots of understeer when I tried to hard. DR. P, sounds like a good plan to run the springs first and decide later.

 

There were 6 WRX's out there with a broad mix of suspension upgrades that I watched. The stiffer cars with coilovers and bigger swaybars skipped around every little bump, where my softer setup was quicker around the course and fairly easy to drive fast. Plus, I was definately down on power to the stage 2 WRX's.

 

I would like to buy adjustable shocks and keep the stock swaybars for now. Now if someone would just offer some decent priced replacement shocks!

[NewScooby]

Those guys bouncing around, if they had adjustable shocks, don't know how to set up their cars - they should have used lower shock rates. As Keefe said, it's all about balance - not only for the driver, but for the track you are running that day, and even the temperatures (which will affect the tire performance if you're that good - I'm not =|)

 

I agree that the cars I saw skipping around corners were not set up correctly. I see the need to use of larger swaybars on smooth racetracks and their benifits on smooth roads, but for rough roads that we all come across during day to day driving is there any benifit in handling? I don't want to get anything dangerous for a daily driver car that my family rides in. But I still need to have my fun with it on weekends!

[tantal]

NewScoopy,

 

If you have to use a single setup for road and track then there is no question that you must compromise. But ask yourself, are you a consistent enough driver on the track to be able to measure the difference in lap times as you change from setup to setup? My guess is not - I'm not - for all of us here except maybe Keefe (I don't know Keefe and I don't mean to be insulting - just to emphasize the high level of skill required to be consistent), are not good enough and consistent enough to be able to tell the difference.

 

SO, it's going to be worth your while (assuming you are one of us normal drivers) to set up your car with typical road duties in mind. Target a stiffer setup, sure, but don't make it jarringly stiff, because you are likely to be unhappy. On the track you may notice that it might be too soft, but challenge yourself to learn to drive the setup as it is, as well as you can, and build up your skills. Then one day you will have the skill to make your investment in a good track car worthwhile! Become a good enough driver to hate the limitations your car and its setup imposes on you - then you know you are becoming a good racer.

 

Anyway, I think a compromise setup makes a lot of sense.

[itsme]

I went with Whiteline adj. F&R bars on my wagon. I have both bars set on soft. Our legacy group did a canyon run this weekend and the car had alot of grip. I love th way it drives now. I still has a smooth ride(even with my 19":icon_bigg ) and is no longer soft in turns. IT handles much better then my '04 WRX wagon I traded in.

[MDork]

NewScoopy,

 

If you have to use a single setup for road and track then there is no question that you must compromise. But ask yourself, are you a consistent enough driver on the track to be able to measure the difference in lap times as you change from setup to setup? My guess is not - I'm not - for all of us here except maybe Keefe (I don't know Keefe and I don't mean to be insulting - just to emphasize the high level of skill required to be consistent), are not good enough and consistent enough to be able to tell the difference.

 

SO, it's going to be worth your while (assuming you are one of us normal drivers) to set up your car with typical road duties in mind. Target a stiffer setup, sure, but don't make it jarringly stiff, because you are likely to be unhappy. On the track you may notice that it might be too soft, but challenge yourself to learn to drive the setup as it is, as well as you can, and build up your skills. Then one day you will have the skill to make your investment in a good track car worthwhile! Become a good enough driver to hate the limitations your car and its setup imposes on you - then you know you are becoming a good racer.

 

Anyway, I think a compromise setup makes a lot of sense.

 

regardless of consistency on a track...there is a night and day difference between the handling FEEL of a stock leggy and one with larget sway bars. i dont need to post pictures of me wearing a racing suit to notice the difference and to me its a positive change.

 

nobody is arguing about whether or not a compromised setup is good or bad. the original poster just wants to know about swaybars.

[LittleBlueGT]

IMO for street driving

 

Stock springs = too much understeer, so get a 20 or 21 m RSB

 

Slightly stiffer springs = RSB (20 or 21)

 

or

 

Slightly stiffer springs = FSB & RSB set

 

Get your springs and shocks in first, then get your sways to tweek things how you want.

[scans007]

Just to chime in.......and move the thread

 

I had S-Techs and Perrin Front and Rear swaybars.......do'n the front and rear sways was by far my fav mod to my last car outta the huge list I did.......

 

This car - Swifts are go'n in this weekend, then I'm gonna poss. do a Rear bar......then maybe a front, but I'm def gonna test the waters to see what I prefer Which seems the best approach for you to, as you are not sure what "feel" you are really after........what better way then to add/remove in stages....and if you don't like them, maybe i'll be at the point where I'd buy them from ya.......

 

Also, pick up the cusco bars

[robinlsb]

Question about the Outback then...

 

My objective: Reduce body roll so that my passengers don't get tossed around when I corner; give the car a flatter, more controled feeling in corners and s-surves

 

My fear: That a tighter rear-end will lower the amount of "grip" (or increase the quickness at which the rear end gives away in rain/snow driving), and not having enough response to bring the car back under control, or at least be in a controlable skid (could get ugly in city driving)

 

Cost: Not too high (definately not a full coilover swap)

 

Can anyone give some input on what would work well for this?

 

Oh, does a stiffer rear sway bar reduce squat when launching or shifting at all, or does it simply keep the rear wheels "less independant" of eachother?

 

A stiffer sway bar will not affect squat. Stiffer springs/shocks will fix squat but your passengers (and you) will get tossed around on a bumpy road.

 

I suggest you take rides with people who have modded their cars.

 

The LGT wagon has initial oversteer, yet many people swear that a JDM rear bar cures this problem.

 

Another issue to remember is that the OBT has VDC which is programed to kick in during wheel slip. And this programming is based on stock spring rates,shock rates ETC.

 

Remember that a lot of the people on this board AUTOX. They know how they like their cars set up and they can predict how the car will behave. Unless you practice or AUTOX, the time to find out how the car responds should not be when you overcook a decreasing radius off-ramp turn!

[ADirtyLegacy]

my probably unwanted $.02....

 

a corner has 3 parts..entry..middle..exit... you can't worry about middle until you are happy with entry. why? b/c you can't get to the middle of the corner until you enter the corner. going on the same logic, you can get off the corner until you get through the middle.

 

i suggest one mod at a time starting with a front bar since it affects entry the most. by going one mod at a time you get a true understanding of what each mod does to the handling of the car at each state of the corner. essentially, you can't finish the next task until the one at hand is completed. my logic is probably flawed b/c i still can't get people who make way more money than me (crew chiefs, drivers, team engineers) to see this...or at least understand it.

 

Kenda:dm:

[MDork]

as you said, your logic is flawed. its not as simple as saying: "larger front bar = better entry". you are changing the handling dynamics with swaybars and a larger front bar will equal even more initial understeer which will not make you any faster.

[Xenonk]

^ +1, there is such a thing that is TOO big...

[ADirtyLegacy]

^ +1, there is such a thing that is TOO big...

not in my world where 2.375" bars exist im not saying complete better entry, but it will help entry no doubt. how much it helps depends on how you drive and what you like to feel as a driver. personally after my "spirited driving experiences" and auto-x experience i bought a front bar b/c i couldn't get any feel for turn in and i like my ride height (mainly b/c i dont like stopping for speed bumps, RR tracks, etc.). then i promptly decided i hated my car and i haven't put it on yet and probably doubt i will

 

i still think one change at a time is the way to go or else you won't know what affected what!

 

Kenda:dm:

[MDork]

if youre referring to "entry" as in "entry into the bushes when you plow head first off the road due to terminal understeer", then i agree with your wacky logic

 

EVERYTHING depends on "how you drive and what you like to feel as a driver"...in other words..."do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable"

[f1anatic]

Well...I had my own concerns about rear sways and related oversteer. After the transplant of the JDM bar, I am pleased to report that so far so good. Under dry (at least) the flatter cornering is noticeable. There is a portion on I-90/94 in Chicago , around the Addison exit that I always drive thru at 70 mph flat. The amount of body lean before was noticeable, it was pushing me towards the center of the car and out of my seat. Now...I find myself comfortable and seemingly more in control.

 

I am yet to drive the car in wet...but I will also get new tires before the rainy season comes...

[robinlsb]

my probably unwanted $.02....

 

a corner has 3 parts..entry..middle..exit... you can't worry about middle until you are happy with entry. why? b/c you can't get to the middle of the corner until you enter the corner. going on the same logic, you can get off the corner until you get through the middle.

 

i suggest one mod at a time starting with a front bar since it affects entry the most. by going one mod at a time you get a true understanding of what each mod does to the handling of the car at each state of the corner. essentially, you can't finish the next task until the one at hand is completed. my logic is probably flawed b/c i still can't get people who make way more money than me (crew chiefs, drivers, team engineers) to see this...or at least understand it.

 

Kenda:dm:

+1 for you. And your logic is not flawed. It is this kind of logic that could propell you to the top of the racing game! Wish I had you for a crew chiek when I raced!

[Scooby Fan]

So...if you were driving backwards would you start with the "Exit" first and then work your way to the "Entrance"??? :lol:

 

Boy!!! Talk about "Unwanted $.02 worth" I must have too much time too waste these day:icon_bigg s??

[ADirtyLegacy]

if youre referring to "entry" as in "entry into the bushes when you plow head first off the road due to terminal understeer", then i agree with your wacky logic

 

EVERYTHING depends on "how you drive and what you like to feel as a driver"...in other words..."do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable"

or when a person does a rear bar only swap and wraps it around a tree due to massive understeer. ya gotta remember...most people on the road (myself included) aren't "masters of car control" or anywhere close to it. i personally like to know the car has "taken a controlled set" be4 i get back into the gas, so i don't mind a bit of a snug feeling as opposed to tossin it in and stand on the gas, get it to rotate, and hope it doesn't rotate too much! again...all in personal preference.

 

going off f1's logic..he was already taking that corner at 70mph, so he upgraded the rear bar..still takes it at 70 (if im reading correctly) and feels less understeer and more in control. some retard could do the same mod and wrap it around a road barrier b/c they never took the corner at 70 and they thought "oh the rear bar will allow me to do this even though im never done it be4". that's what i meant as how you drive and what you feel as a driver.

 

Kenda:dm:

[ADirtyLegacy]

So...if you were driving backwards would you start with the "Exit" first and then work your way to the "Entrance"??? :lol:

 

Boy!!! Talk about "Unwanted $.02 worth" I must have too much time too waste these day:icon_bigg s??

whatever comes first is what ya gotta start with!

 

Kenda:dm:

[robinlsb]

ultimately, the herd is thinned!

[MDork]

or when a person does a rear bar only swap and wraps it around a tree due to massive understeer.

 

google "understeer" then report back

[ADirtyLegacy]

google "understeer" then report back

i meant oversteer..i was drinking (and still am) as i was home "early"!

 

Kenda:dm:

[MDork]

what youre failing to consider is that the legacy...in stock form...has a strong tendency to understeer. because of this, adding only a rear bar wont give you massive oversteer, it will bring you closer to neutral. depending on how much stiffer the rear bar is, you may be able to achieve a tendency to oversteer. adding only a stiffer front bar will in fact increase your understeer even more which then...to me...is just obnoxious. i chose to replace both front and rear because this is a street car and i still want some initial understeer for safety's sake. normally i dont bother arguing...but you dont really seem to understand and i would hate to see people going out to buy only stiffer front sways to help "take a controlled set"...which makes no sense at all.