Front + Rear swaybar= overkill?

[LittleBlueGT]

what youre failing to consider is that the legacy...in stock form...has a strong tendency to understeer. because of this, adding only a rear bar wont give you massive oversteer, it will bring you closer to neutral. depending on how much stiffer the rear bar is, you may be able to achieve a tendency to oversteer. adding only a stiffer front bar will in fact increase your understeer even more which then...to me...is just obnoxious. i chose to replace both front and rear because this is a street car and i still want some initial understeer for safety's sake. normally i dont bother arguing...but you dont really seem to understand and i would hate to see people going out to buy only stiffer front sways to help "take a controlled set"...which makes no sense at all.

 

+1

 

I don't just agree with you, you are right!

[Scooby Fan]

Oddly,,,,,, in all this I don't hear any mention of adjusting the front camber and toe-in as ways of adjusting the "Over/under" steer. I think we all "KNOW" that a stiffer rear bar increases the tendency to oversteer and a stiffer front bar increases the tendency to understeer (The dreaded PLOW)

 

Well...."Decambering" the front and rear suspension has the same results........more negative camber at the front increases oversteer and more negative in the rear increases understeer.........great for small adjustments.

 

Don't go nuts on this.......about 1or2 degrees more than stock is about all you want to do. If you decamber the front end to about 1.5* negative and add a touch of toe-in the car tracks great and has very sharp turn in.....any decent alignment shop can do this for you in about 20 minutes.

 

FOOD for THOUGHT???

[RobY]

Those guys bouncing around, if they had adjustable shocks, don't know how to set up their cars - they should have used lower shock rates. As Keefe said, it's all about balance - not only for the driver, but for the track you are running that day, and even the temperatures (which will affect the tire performance if you're that good - I'm not =|)

 

 

Yep less bump more rebound.

[RobY]

Question about the Outback then...

 

My objective: Reduce body roll so that my passengers don't get tossed around when I corner; give the car a flatter, more controled feeling in corners and s-surves

 

My fear: That a tighter rear-end will lower the amount of "grip" (or increase the quickness at which the rear end gives away in rain/snow driving), and not having enough response to bring the car back under control, or at least be in a controlable skid (could get ugly in city driving)

 

Cost: Not too high (definately not a full coilover swap)

 

Can anyone give some input on what would work well for this?

 

Oh, does a stiffer rear sway bar reduce squat when launching or shifting at all, or does it simply keep the rear wheels "less independant" of eachother?

 

 

Really a RSB or anything shouldent make too much of a diffrence in the snow. Its all about weight transfer. If there is none becuase of a limited tractive surface the swaybars and springs cant do thier work.

 

You will slide before the car begins to roll and engage any useful movement out of the swaybar.

 

Driving in the snow is more about the general weight balance of the car rather than swaybars.

[LittleBlueGT]

Really a RSB or anything shouldent make too much of a diffrence in the snow. Its all about weight transfer. If there is none becuase of a limited tractive surface the swaybars and springs cant do thier work.

 

You will slide before the car begins to roll and engage any useful movement out of the swaybar.

 

Driving in the snow is more about the general weight balance of the car rather than swaybars.

 

Disagree.

 

I have a stock FSB and a Whiteline adj RSB. In the snow or ice with a stock suspension the car understeers big time, unless you really try and provoke oversteer. With the aftermarket RSB set to soft (still a lot stiffer then OEM) the car is very balanced in the slippery stuff, takes a bit more skill to drive, but very manageable and a lot of fun. With the RSB set to stiff the car is very nervous and wants to flip ends. Even driving staight on the highway can be dangerous, one little correction and the car is oversteering, w/o quick action you will be facing the wrong way in the ditch!

 

Trust me I have much experience driving a LGT in the snow, modded and stock.

[RobY]

Are you on stock springs?

 

I have 8/8 rate coilovers. The RSB's definately don't engage in the snow

 

Of course YMMV. The swaybar will have a much more drastic effect if you have wet noodle springs.

 

But the concept is sound. If there is less traction than can be used to provoke body roll and weight transfer the swaybars wont do jack shit.

 

I dont even know why they bothered with the 16mm Rear Sway. When I was adjusting my coilovers I noticed that I could flex them with my hands they are on the verge of being non functional IMHO. So i guess any RSB upgrade would be an improvement in stiffness over the stock ballast of a swaybar.

[LittleBlueGT]

Are you on stock springs?

 

I have 8/8 rate coilovers. The RSB's definately don't engage in the snow

 

Of course YMMV. The swaybar will have a much more drastic effect if you have wet noodle springs.

 

But the concept is sound. If there is less traction than can be used to provoke body roll and weight transfer the swaybars wont do jack shit.

 

I dont even know why they bothered with the 16mm Rear Sway. When I was adjusting my coilovers I noticed that I could flex them with my hands they are on the verge of being non functional IMHO. So i guess any RSB upgrade would be an improvement in stiffness over the stock ballast of a swaybar.

 

Running ION springs w/ JDM spec-B Bilsteins.

 

Also, with 8/8 springs you are running much softer in the rear then stock. Not softer but in comparison to the fronts. The mechanical advantage of the LGTs rear suspension makes your 8 rear spring more like a 5.5. That is why the stock LGT springs are stiffer in the rear then the front, even though the perceived spring rate is stiffer in the front then rear. With 8/8 springs you are already setting yourself up for more understeer. Of course you can change somewhat by adjusting your shock valving.

[LittleBlueGT]

While I am thinking of it.

 

Xenok:

 

You are running equal front vs. rear springs aren't you?

 

That is why you can run a huge RSB and not have your car spinning everytime you turn.

[MDork]

Oddly,,,,,, in all this I don't hear any mention of adjusting the front camber and toe-in as ways of adjusting the "Over/under" steer. I think we all "KNOW" that a stiffer rear bar increases the tendency to oversteer and a stiffer front bar increases the tendency to understeer (The dreaded PLOW)

 

Well...."Decambering" the front and rear suspension has the same results........more negative camber at the front increases oversteer and more negative in the rear increases understeer.........great for small adjustments.

 

Don't go nuts on this.......about 1or2 degrees more than stock is about all you want to do. If you decamber the front end to about 1.5* negative and add a touch of toe-in the car tracks great and has very sharp turn in.....any decent alignment shop can do this for you in about 20 minutes.

 

FOOD for THOUGHT???

 

I think its been left out simply because this is a thread about swaybars!

[LittleBlueGT]

The idea behind it is that the car wants to try to use two tires to turn the car rather than just the outside front tire. The sway bar is there to help share the loads by using the inside wheel's suspension components to help push against the the forces that the outside wheel is sensing..

 

A sway bar actually reduces traction at the end of the vehicle that it is installed on. Upgrading both sways equally will gain traction (assuming smooth surface, etc...).

 

For example:

 

Larger FSB will transfer more weight to the outside front tire, thereby reducing weight on the inside front tire = less traction on the front wheels. (You always have more traction when the wheels have as close to equal weight on them as able)

 

The larger FSB will keep the car more level causing a little less decrease in weight to the inside rear wheel, causing more traction in the rear.

 

If that doesn't make sense I will try to elaborate more when I have time.

[RobY]

Im perfectly aware of the leverage ratio of the rear suspension I am the one who started the thread on it.

 

Keefe actually runs 8/6 rates which is HEAVILY front biased. he can run a much stiffer RSB and still be stable under any condition.

 

I run equal rates for the same reason keefe runs front biased rates. Its to allow deeper braking than stock while still maintaining stability. This is somthing that cant be changed with Swaybars. Stiffer front springs equalize the F/R movement of the car. I also do not beleive that the leverage ratio is as drastic as previously predicted.

 

I also run a slightly larger kingpin angle than stock which does effect the roll resistance of the front suspension. In all intents and purposes it "softens" the front up a bit because it changes the force vector of suspension movement.

 

Another reason why my fronts are as stiff as they are is to compensate for the poor camber compensation of the McPhearson Strut system. Making things softer only increases grip if you are running a perfect SLA suspension.

 

You can throw that out the window if you are running a mcphearson setup. The more you compress a mcphearson setup the more camber becomes positive. In a mcphearson setup stiffer actually does mean more grip by virtue of camber control.

 

Equal rates actually work out in this case as I can use KPI, Camber, and swaybars to create a neutral car WHILE having a car that is controlled during heavy braking. It also allows me to run low static camber in the rear as the rear multilink is closer to ideal than a mcphearson system.

 

Setup with 1.8 Front camber and 0.5 rear the car has safe very mild understeer in dry conditions. I can provoke the rear to step out by lifting off the throttle or trail braking. I plan on experimenting with some RSB's to get a perfectly neutral balance in the near future.

 

 

My car steers fine in the snow I do not really notice any understeer tendancy. Id say it oversteers more than stock eventhough the springrates are softer in the rear relative to the front.

 

Trust me I have thought this through.

[LittleBlueGT]

Trust me I have thought this through.

 

I believe.

 

My comments are more directed a fairly stock set-up, maybe springs, shocks, sways, but nothing too drastic.

[Xenonk]

While I am thinking of it.

 

Xenok:

 

You are running equal front vs. rear springs aren't you?

 

That is why you can run a huge RSB and not have your car spinning everytime you turn.

 

 

^ actually no, I have 8/6 with Cusco front 23mm and adjustable Cusco 21mm rear set to full stiff. I set my shocks to my own particular set up as well as my own custom alignment. It's all a system that makes my car perform the way I want it to perform on the track/autox based on the allowed optimum conditions.

 

"Massive understeer" right? Not a chance since I have set up my car to do exactly what I want it to do based on my driving style and my own inputs.

 

Dont let raw numbers fool you. A driver's skill and knowledge of the road, car control can go a long way and be the actual "equalizer" of the difference in car setups. So what if a car has the tendency to understeer more than the other? The driver (with the right skills) can overcome that and make the adjustment to make it perform just like the other car.

 

The real issue is modifying the car that not only work with the conditions of the road that you are driving on, but to help the driver's tendencies and driving style (think supplement, not just complement). You build the car around the driver, and let the driver be more consistent in their driving. When you add both of those up, you'll be faster and be more in control.

 

The real goal is to get both the car and the driver to work together. The other objective is to AVOID modifying a car that the driver has to make up for the lack of control and communication/feedback of the car, it also goes the other way of having a super car that can do a lot, but the driver can't handle the car. Simple math here:

 

Good Handling Car + Good Driver = Perfect

 

Bad Handling Car + Good Driver = Ok

 

Good Handling Car + Bad Driver = Bad

 

Bad Handling Car + Bad Driver = Accident waiting to happen

 

When modding a car, it should work with the driver, not against the driver's skills and talent. And in my book, it's cheaper and way more performance effective to "mod" the driver rather than the car first. Unless you can drive the wheels off the car and make it perform like a superstar, ok, then it's time to upgrade the car to go faster/more control. It's how the world of racing works.. the driver is there as an auto-pilot and is there to drive consistently fast.. it's the job of the engineer to just make the car go faster.

 

Here's a little quote from one of my emails from my teammates when we discussed about such things (a "Racer's Bible" that keep for myself):

 

Racer's Bible:

 

"If a driver is to a car, then a basketball player is to a basketball.

If the basketball player performs well, it's because he/she can, not because the basketball makes him/her a better player or perform that much better.

If the driver performs well, it's because he/she can, not because the car makes him/her a better driver or perform that much better.

You can have the world's fanciest basketball, but if you dont have the handling, dribbling or shooting skills, the fancy ball is nothing but rubber/plastic and air.

You can have the world's highest performing car, but if you dont have the skills for braking, turning, shifting, the fancy car is nothing but rubber, metal, plastic and liquids.

It starts with you first"

 

- KL-SR 5:2

 

"If you are learning to play tennis hitting ball is good, however, hitting balls while taking lessons is much better. Two hours spent practicing a serve using improper form merely creates muscle memory of bad habits.

 

I think you are too focused on how many minutes you are on track. Once the newness of racing wears off you should get serious about getting faster; learn that the answer is not to buy new cams. You need to realize that a great driver in a slow car can keep up with a mediocre driver in a great car. Be a great student and your car will get faster without turning a wrench. What you are looking for is not more untutored

track time."

 

- AM-SR 1:5

[Xenonk]

A sway bar actually reduces traction at the end of the vehicle that it is installed on. Upgrading both sways equally will gain traction (assuming smooth surface, etc...).

 

For example:

 

Larger FSB will transfer more weight to the outside front tire, thereby reducing weight on the inside front tire = less traction on the front wheels. (You always have more traction when the wheels have as close to equal weight on them as able)

 

The larger FSB will keep the car more level causing a little less decrease in weight to the inside rear wheel, causing more traction in the rear.

 

If that doesn't make sense I will try to elaborate more when I have time.

 

 

I had this argument before with another member, so Im not going to go into detail other than the fact that a sway bar works by the knowledge of simple "fizziks"

[MDork]

dont forget though keefer, if you have a great basketball player but the ball isnt inflated all the way, hes going to have a hard time practicing the fundamentals properly. my point is....a good basketball player cannot perform (the way he/she can) without the equipment being properly setup. to me...the legacy in stock form is like an underinflated basketball. this reinforces your comment regarding the car complimenting the driver...just thought you should update your analogy.

[LittleBlueGT]

I had this argument before with another member, so Im not going to go into detail other than the fact that a sway bar works by the knowledge of simple "fizziks"

 

 

Exactly, and it does what I said it does, all other things being equal.

 

Camber change as Roby brought out, along with other alingment issues can change things somewhat.

 

I will have to do a search when I have more time.

 

A RSB will (all things being equal) cause the car to oversteer = less traction in the rear.

 

It will keep the car more level and cause the inside front tire to lift less = more traction in the front.

 

Again (all things being equal) a sway bar will not change the overall traction of a car (oversimplifying a bit) but will change which axle has more and which has less.

 

Having 8/6 springs even helps to re-inforce my point. A stiffer front will counteract a large RSB.

 

Again, "My comments are more directed a fairly stock set-up, maybe springs, shocks, sways, but nothing too drastic."

 

If you take a fairly stock car and put a huge RSB on the thing YOU WILL KILL YOURSELF IN THE SNOW! I don't care how good a driver you are! Even you Xenonk! Even though you have driver skill and experience in spades.

[Xenonk]

dont forget though keefer, if you have a great basketball player but the ball isnt inflated all the way, hes going to have a hard time practicing the fundamentals properly. my point is....a good basketball player cannot perform (the way he/she can) without the equipment being properly setup. to me...the legacy in stock form is like an underinflated basketball. this reinforces your comment regarding the car complimenting the driver...just thought you should update your analogy.

 

 

a working car and a properly inflated basketball is the analogy.. unless you have a flat tire or low on oil in the car, I dont think the car is working properly to begin with, just like how a basketball with low pressure wouldnt work well.

[Xenonk]

Having 8/6 springs even helps to re-inforce my point. A stiffer front will counteract a large RSB.

 

that's a little over-simplifying it.. as a sway bar takes away corner independence... stiffening springs is different than running a stiffer sway bar, they have two different handling characteristics.

[MDork]

a working car and a properly inflated basketball is the analogy.. unless you have a flat tire or low on oil in the car, I dont think the car is working properly to begin with, just like how a basketball with low pressure wouldnt work well.

 

then i think your analogy is silly. a working car could mean a 1995 chevy suburban in which case the skilled driver will not be able to utilize his skills and perform. equipment does make a difference. give roger federer a wooden racket and the best teacher of all time and his 2 hours of practice serves will be worthless.

 

if you define "working car" as being a properly set up race car...then your analogy makes no sense in this context. this thread isnt about how to make yourself a track hero...

[Xenonk]

then i think your analogy is silly. a working car could mean a 1995 chevy suburban in which case the skilled driver will not be able to utilize his skills and perform. equipment does make a difference. give roger federer a wooden racket and the best teacher of all time and his 2 hours of practice serves will be worthless.

 

if you define "working car" as being a properly set up race car...then your analogy makes no sense in this context. this thread isnt about how to make yourself a track hero...

 

 

Then it becomes an issue "what's more important to improve, the car or the driver?"

 

Before we get off subject, (which it's getting), just listen to MDork and others here other than me, they have a pronounced and more definite answer for Dr. Pepper.

[RobY]

Both... then you will be faster.

 

EDIT: Both Driver Skill and Car setup.... to avoid confusion of what I am saying.

[mmm def]

I installed both a front and rear, but I didn't like the front bar-brought back too much understeer, so for me just an upgraded rear was perfect! I would say do 1 at a time to see.

[GetAwayDriver]

what youre failing to consider is that the legacy...in stock form...has a strong tendency to understeer. because of this, adding only a rear bar wont give you massive oversteer, it will bring you closer to neutral. depending on how much stiffer the rear bar is, you may be able to achieve a tendency to oversteer. adding only a stiffer front bar will in fact increase your understeer even more which then...to me...is just obnoxious. i chose to replace both front and rear because this is a street car and i still want some initial understeer for safety's sake. normally i dont bother arguing...but you dont really seem to understand and i would hate to see people going out to buy only stiffer front sways to help "take a controlled set"...which makes no sense at all.

 

This is exactly what I did with my LGT. I remember driving it off the lot and liking the comfort and the overall "sportiness" of it, but thinking that I could at least neutralize some of the overly apparent understeer to make it a bit more nimble in the corners. Thus, the first thing I did was put on the JDM sway bar for the rear. World of difference, inexpensive and its just enough to make the car very well balanced. Neutral as the above post mentions. Only other mods I have are the Cobb AP Stage 1 and Cobb shifter bushings.

 

I am getting back into modding it and am definately not nearly as capable of driver out there as some people are, thus, I am holding back on a ton of power mods and sticking with the suspension until I improve enough to handle gobs of turbo happiness. That said, I am thinking of doing some springs. Realtive to this great thread, would the springs be the next logical move as it should theoretically improve the handling of all four corners equally? I like the way the car handles, but it could be "locked down" some more.

 

My other idea was brakes but I want to avoid as many warranty negating issues as possible. This is my only car and I like having the responsibility thrown at the dealer to fix and maintain stuff. One the car's warranty is kicked, then I'll start really messing with it.

 

I love this car, just wish they had done those 07 improvements initially.

[LittleBlueGT]

Realistically dampers would help more with handling then would springs, actually you really need both.

 

If you have the dough get a good set of coil-overs or get what I have JDM Bilsteins riding on ION spring.

[MacLGT-B]

What effect would a Front & Rear Upper Strut Tower BracesBar

http://www.rallitek.com/cuossttobr.html

have on the Front & Rear SwayBars?