dr. pepper Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 is it really necessary to have an aftermarket swaybar in the front and rear?, i am currently investigating the perrin rear swaybar, and im not truly looking for race car flatness through corners, just upgraded cornering, along with my tein h-tech springs i am getting, is a rear swaybar enough? along with summer tires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsalicru Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 front swaybar really helps the turn-in... rear helps with rotation. "some say, his arms are made of coiled adamantium fibers. And that he tops his cereal with nuts and bolts. All we know is, he's called the Jose." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr. pepper Posted April 10, 2006 Author Share Posted April 10, 2006 so a front swaybar is better for a moderate supension upgrade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sutter2k Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 ^he didn't say better If you are only doing the rear, don't get the stiffest bar on the stiffest setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 ^he didn't say better If you are only doing the rear, don't get the stiffest bar on the stiffest setting. why? I did that, and I loved it. It's all preference.. if you can really drive the car with more control with both or just one, do it.. afterall, we are looking for control here. [During the Autocross season] on my WRX and RS, I only run with the adjustable rear sway bar that is set to full stiff. I retain the stock front sway bar. I adjust the shocks and get custom spring rates for the coilovers for each car to fit my needs. on the GT, I have both front and rear sway bars (the rear is adjustable I have it set to full stiff) along with Zeal coilovers.. All 3 cars for coilover specs and adjustments, I have my springs rates that are stiffer up front (neglect mechanical advantages because we are comparing the aftermarket stuff to stock numbers anyways and we are not changing the geometry).. and I have my shock dampening bias to the front as well. Tire pressures are also biased to the front of the car being the higher/stiffer/harder setting. By creating this kind of setup, this allows the car to have a later braking setup and still have a lot of stability by preventing less head-dive/weight transfer.. at the same time, I can be earlier on the throttle to keep the rear end planted and spend more time accelerating out of the corner even before I reach the apex. All of this stuff makes me feel better working with the car and still pull out very respectable can comparable times.. it's my preference for the car setup. If you ask anyone else to drive my car, most people would just think the setup is done poorly when clearly it wasn't designed to their driving knowledge, habits and style. It really depends on the setup you need to make the car perform the way you want. Not everyone needs front and rear sways, and not everyone likes having stiffer bias to one end of the car than the other. It really comes down to what works for you. The best thing to do is to pick up the April edition of Grassroots Motorsports Magazine. ( http://www.grmotorsports.com/ ) In that, there is an article that dicusses "the shocking truth" about how to tune a car's suspension to meet your needs. Joe Stimola has created a quick cliffnotes in that article to help everyone the basics of curing certain common suspension issues if the car has a problem in: -understeer during entry/turn-in (during trail-braking) -oversteer during entry/turn-in (during trail-braking) -understeer during exit/track-out (during unwinding of the wheel and throttle-on) -oversteer during exit/track-out (during unwinding of the wheel and throttle-on) -midcorner understeer (one of the the hardest problems to pinpoint for a driver) Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDork Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 is there an answer in there somewhere? summary for you: just rear sway equals more OVERsteer just front sway equals more UNDERsteer a matched set will improve turn in sharpness while maintaining a degree of initial understeer for safety sake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scooby Fan Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 I have a Whiteline adjustable on the rear...set at full stiff. The only other suspension mods are wider, lighter wheels with 225 tires and a bit more neg. camber up front.......It handles like a dream.....much less understeer and a flatter ride through the center of the turns. When it is pushed a bit it slowly starts to oversteer, but only mildly:) PS....I run it with more air pressure up front.....38-33 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 is there an answer in there somewhere? summary for you: just rear sway equals more OVERsteer just front sway equals more UNDERsteer a matched set will improve turn in sharpness while maintaining a degree of initial understeer for safety sake my summary is: "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" I have some drivers that can drive the car TO THE EXACT GRIP LIMIT and request for a higher limit of grip. It really depends on the style of driving. Some people can drive the car with a larger sway bar by wanting to have more grip during the turn-in (it doesnt always equate to understeer.. but IF you overdrive the car, then yes, the presence of understeer will show up). Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr. pepper Posted April 10, 2006 Author Share Posted April 10, 2006 wow, i never knew it mattered which swaybar was modified, i just thought that no matter what you did, a bigger swaybar meant flatter, more predictable cornerin, i have some thinking to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 10, 2006 Share Posted April 10, 2006 ^ I am not trying to confuse you, but it's just something to think about if you are looking of ways to get the most "bang" out of your buck, and better yet, a better performance out of your ride. I have come across way too many people spending a lot of money on things that doesnt even suit their driving needs or styles. But if that's the cost of the learning curve to buy one part, and then needing to buy another "better" part, then so be it. but to just answer your thread's question: it depends on your driving style.. yes, it would be overkill for some off-roading use no, it would be good for tarmac performance driving Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Guys, remember that as you stiffen (either axel), you will increase the response rate AT THE EXPENSE OF GRIP. Now granted the LGT setup is way too biased towards grip, but the comment about not stiffening up the rear too much to make the back end too stiff (and thus lower grip) will make : the front still respond slowly the rear take a set quickly the rear lose grip more quickly more oversteer compared to stock. You will remain with a high grip front end that does not respond rapidly to direction changes. You will (near the cars limit) tend to lose the rear end but have difficulty in S-curve situations. Now having said all that, as usual Keefe is right that it depends on your driving style, but if you have never had a driving class and especially if you've never driven on track or at an autocross you should DEFINATELY make changes to both front and rear that retain the overall balance of the car compared to stock. If you unbalance your car you will get unpredictable handling AT THE LIMIT, and in an emergency situation the car will not behave as you expect it to. Unfortunately you will not recognize this situation in everyday driving. Just a warning that there is a big world of performance driving out there and that wanting to be an F1 driver like I do does not make you one, or anything even close!!! You will car about your cars handling at the limit if you find yourself in an emergency situation. Just trying to warn you guys definately ignore me if you dont give a toss or if you do actually know what you're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 wow, i never knew it mattered which swaybar was modified, i just thought that no matter what you did, a bigger swaybar meant flatter, more predictable cornerin, i have some thinking to do Stiffer in general means faster response, and less grip. This is putting it in simple terms. Tying the two wheels of an axel together with a stiffer sway bar will make them behave less independently, and increase the rate at which the car settles when you make a direction change. As you soften, you decrease the rate at which the car "sets" but you increase the ultimate level of grip, because the wheels move more independently to find the correct (based on spring loadings and spring strength) level compared to the equilibrium. So, sways make the wheels talk to each other. Stiffer springs make the suspension travel less. Stiffer shocks make the suspension respond more quickly. Again, just broad brush strokes. Most peeps would be happier with their LGT with a some stiffening, but at both ends. A sway bar will do the trick, but to make it a firm fast responding car, you'll want to do the springs and sways. Shocks are probably more than sufficient for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDork Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 my summary is: "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" I have some drivers that can drive the car TO THE EXACT GRIP LIMIT and request for a higher limit of grip. It really depends on the style of driving. Some people can drive the car with a larger sway bar by wanting to have more grip during the turn-in (it doesnt always equate to understeer.. but IF you overdrive the car, then yes, the presence of understeer will show up). and clearly to this guy "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" is like saying "omglolwtfbbq". couldn't get any more vague. we can now answer all questions: --should i get new tires? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i get pulleys? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i get a protune for more powa!? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i get coilovers? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i be a dorifto in school zones? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i rice out my legacy? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --swear ta meeee? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" actual comments: the stock legacy has an obnoxious amount of body roll and understeer. swaybar upgrades will help you eliminate this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Guys, remember that as you stiffen (either axel), you will increase the response rate AT THE EXPENSE OF GRIP.. I wouldnt say expense of grip.. what you are doing is actually raising the level of the grip threshold by maintaining the car as flat as possible (as we all know and we cant argue that 2 tires have more grip than 1 on the road).. Now, that said, it's also possible that you can lose grip quickly because the threshold curve is sharper and a stiffer bar can easily make the suspension components have LESS independence. I think this is what you are getting at. Remember, a sway bar is just another type of "spring". It can work both ways for anyone. The bar just wants to stay straight, but the forces apply makes the bar bend in two major directions. A good example or comparison to this would be a diving board.. you can jump down on it or pull up on it, but the fact remains that the board wants to stay straight. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 and clearly to this guy "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" is like saying "omglolwtfbbq". couldn't get any more vague. we can now answer all questions: --should i get new tires? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i get pulleys? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i get a protune for more powa!? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i get coilovers? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i be a dorifto in school zones? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --should i rice out my legacy? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" --swear ta meeee? "do what you feel is safe and feel comfortable" actual comments: the stock legacy has an obnoxious amount of body roll and understeer. swaybar upgrades will help you eliminate this. unless the driver can explain in more detail of what he feels is the problem, the better that we can dish out an answer.. I am certainly not going to 'advise' something that isnt going to work for the 'patient', that's just 'malpractice' waiting to happen. As for the understeer, I personally do not think it does.. I would be happy competing the GT in D-Stock if it wasn't so heavy against the WRX. The car actually rotates well in stock form, and as I said earlier, I would actually upgrade the front more to give me more of a point-and-shoot feeling to the car to make it work for me. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDork Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 youre definitely in the minority then from what ive seen. the understeer is not as drastic as a wrx but is definitely excessive. just getting a larger front sway would not make the car more fun to drive IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr. pepper Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 so a front swaybar improves initial bite and turn in while keeping it more flat through the corner AKA:(on-ramp), cuz if thats the case, im going with a front swaybar and tein h-tech springs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr. pepper Posted April 11, 2006 Author Share Posted April 11, 2006 dont know why theres a sad face in there, DOH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 unless the driver can explain in more detail of what he feels is the problem, the better that we can dish out an answer.. I am certainly not going to 'advise' something that isnt going to work for the 'patient', that's just 'malpractice' waiting to happen. As for the understeer, I personally do not think it does.. I would be happy competing the GT in D-Stock if it wasn't so heavy against the WRX. The car actually rotates well in stock form, and as I said earlier, I would actually upgrade the front more to give me more of a point-and-shoot feeling to the car to make it work for me. Very important point - if you don't know how to drive well enough to explain the problem you wan to resolve, you should spend your money on driving classes - that's not meant to be insulting, but serious! Keefe I agree that the car is fairly neutral, but it does depend on how you drive it, how it ends up feeling to you. The weight is a big issue, and honestly I don't know why you guys would track your LGT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 so a front swaybar improves initial bite and turn in while keeping it more flat through the corner AKA:(on-ramp), cuz if thats the case, im going with a front swaybar and tein h-tech springs yes, that is correct. The idea behind it is that the car wants to try to use two tires to turn the car rather than just the outside front tire. The sway bar is there to help share the loads by using the inside wheel's suspension components to help push against the the forces that the outside wheel is sensing.. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tantal Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 so a front swaybar improves initial bite and turn in while keeping it more flat through the corner AKA:(on-ramp), cuz if thats the case, im going with a front swaybar and tein h-tech springs The shocks rates are more important in maintaining "flatness" but a stiffer spring with the same shock rate will make the total deflection less, giving the flatter feeling. In the case of the LGT setup, I think the stiffer springs can make a big difference, but we are talking on-road suspension setups, NOT track setups. The latter really calls for shocks, springs, and sways, and really you probably want adjustable shocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDork Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 do you like understeer? if youre not sure if you like understeer, go to your car and remove the rear sway and drive around. tell me if you like the feeling. alternatively, you can go test drive a toyota avalon and get a similar feeling. get the springs on first, then decide if you really need sways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 Keefe I agree that the car is fairly neutral, but it does depend on how you drive it, how it ends up feeling to you. The weight is a big issue, and honestly I don't know why you guys would track your LGT! yea, weight is an issue, but I cant complain when it's cold/raining/snowing(!) at the track and I have heated seats to drive comfortably in. Oh yea, and AWD is a life-saver from time to time It's just fun. Ask the GOTO Racing guys and their GT Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 do you like understeer? if youre not sure if you like understeer, go to your car and remove the rear sway and drive around. tell me if you like the feeling. alternatively, you can go test drive a toyota avalon and get a similar feeling. get the springs on first, then decide if you really need sways. +1, I'll definitely agree to that notion. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenonk Posted April 11, 2006 Share Posted April 11, 2006 The shocks rates are more important in maintaining "flatness" but a stiffer spring with the same shock rate will make the total deflection less, giving the flatter feeling. In the case of the LGT setup, I think the stiffer springs can make a big difference, but we are talking on-road suspension setups, NOT track setups. The latter really calls for shocks, springs, and sways, and really you probably want adjustable shocks. it's all just a checks & balances kind of deal as EACH suspension component works specific duties, but it all works as a SYSTEM. You can easily negate some of the effects of one component by upgrading another (see some examples of what rally cars are designed with unique shocks, soft long traveling springs and little or no sway bars vs. a track car with super stiff springs, big sway bars, and fine-tuned shocks for short suspension travel). There's an application with your name on it.. the main concern is understand what the problem is, there's plenty of us in the forums that can point you in the right direction of what will solve your problem. Keefe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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