2017 Legacy 2.5i premium with off-center steering wheel

[d0bdish18]

On 2/21/2023 at 12:32 PM, Tom Pearl said:

Update:

I recently drove another 2017 Legacy and it was perfect. No weird pull to the right and didn't at all feel like something is off like with mine. 

After reading this thread, I'm pretty convinced the issue lies in the steering components: https://community.cartalk.com/t/steering-is-harder-to-the-left-than-to-the-right/83146

I'll be taking it to Subaru for the final time in about a week and if nothing comes of it again than I'm not putting any more time and money into the car and moving on. Ill give an update.

Any update? I have exactly the same issue. Only one alignment was done and it didn't fix anything 

[Tom Pearl]

No, unfortunately. I've been too busy lately. Well its good to know I'm not alone. What year is yours?

[d0bdish18]

10 hours ago, Tom Pearl said:

No, unfortunately. I've been too busy lately. Well its good to know I'm not alone. What year is yours?

Mine is 2016. I've posted about this before not long time ago: last comment is interesting - will check when snow is gone:

 

 

[Tom Pearl]

Finally an update:

Took it into Subaru for most likely the final time. Both a technician and myself test drove it on both the streets and a freeway and he confirmed there is indeed a pull. I demanded they check all the steering components and said I believed the most likely culprit was debris blocking one of the valves in the steering box.

They kept it overnight, called me the next day and basically said "there's nothing wrong we can see with your car and the steering is all electronic so that can't be it. We measured all suspension parts and everything is fine. However, we did an alignment and centered the steering wheel free of charge." Their machine did not indicate it needed an alignment. In fact, it showed all measurements were 100% perfect.

The car continues to pull, but not as dramatically as before and the steering wheel is still just a tad off center.

Now I think my next and final move will be to go to a Subaru specialist shop. If that fails, then im done with the car.

Words can't describe how unhappy I am with this company and how angry with myself I am for buying this car.

 

 

[silverton]

I think it's your tires.  $160 for a set is uh.... yikes.  I pay that for one of my continentals.

[Infosecdad]

24 minutes ago, silverton said:

I think it's your tires.  $160 for a set is uh.... yikes.  I pay that for one of my continentals.

I would agree. 

After all this, I would be highly suspicious of the tires. 

As most good tires are $100+ each, I can't imagine how "good" primewells are.

[silverton]

Just to expand on that a little bit, and provide a smidge more insight possibly... did you buy the tires or did they come with the car?  My theory is that they were installed, and the vehicle wasn't aligned afterwards. This caused the tires to wear abnormally, it only takes 500-1000 miles and it just exacerbates from there. With abnormally worn tires you will never get a good alignment; sure the specs are green and exactly perfect on paper, but because the tires are worn abnormally, that's what the alignment is set perfect to. Imagine the sole of your shoe is not flat, you stand funny and your weight sits differently right? Same thing with a car.

This is all conjecture, but since it's a certified pre-owned I'd say whatever tech was in charge of certifying it replaced the tires, drove it and decided it didn't need an alignment, or as I've heard "good enough for who it's for".  No customer to show an alignment sheet to, so no need to connect it to the machine to check and get a printout.

But with all that being said, I would find it very strange that a dealership would install a Firestone brand tire.

Edited May 5, 2023 by silverton

[d0bdish18]

I doubt it's tires. I have the same issue. And it's the same on 2 different sets (Bridgestone and Continental). 

Mine started not long after I've installed Perin Steering Dampener, but I don't think that's the problem.

I'm thinking something is off with either struts, upper control arm or springs. 

I'm installing new lowering springs + rear hub assembly + new control arms. We'll report back when it's done.

Edited May 5, 2023 by d0bdish18

[Tom Pearl]

The primewells were installed a little over a year ago. I bought the car with the factory tires on it and they were heavily worn in an abnormally way reflective of the pull to the right.

[d0bdish18]

A little update: recently I've replaced both rear hub assemblies - that didn't fix the issue. 

Replaced rear rotors - no change.

Installed lowering springs - and boom! No more pulling to right side. 

Now the steering wheel is perfectly centered and absolutely no signs of car pulling to anu side.

I have no idea why though. Maybe while removing everything and putting back it did fix something? Maybe stock springs had issues? 

[Tom Pearl]

On 5/4/2023 at 7:05 PM, Tom Pearl said:

The primewells were installed a little over a year ago. I bought the car with the factory tires on it and they were heavily worn in an abnormally way reflective of the pull to the right.

Very interesting. You just installed lowering springs on all 4 wheels? 

I'm not trying to lower the car though...

[madmax988]

I had a similar problem.  It started after I was rear ended and dealership kept saying it was perfectly aligned and I was crazy.  What annoys me is a year later I replaced 2 more tires, they had told me not to replace all 4 because 2 were still fine...well after I replaced the 2 other tires and now had 4 tires that were all much closer in tread depth suddenly 95% of my pulling problem went away.  My guess is the awd system is very sensitive to even small tire differences.  All my tires were the original OEM spec tires, I had gotten off schedule on replacing all 4 at same time due to blowing 2 relatively new tires at the same time due to driving over a chunk of metal debris.  Still the dealership was ridiculous that they never thought to just sell me 2 more tires when I kept complaining that it wasn't aligned.  

 

Edit- I just googled primewell those are some super cheapo chinese (technically singapore tires),  I would definitely buy some better safer tires before I spent $100's on alignments. Chinese tires are pretty scary when they randomly decide to disintegrate while your driving, I speak from experience, you get what you pay for.

Edited December 11, 2023 by madmax988

[Tom Pearl]

5 hours ago, madmax988 said:

I had a similar problem.  It started after I was rear ended and dealership kept saying it was perfectly aligned and I was crazy.  What annoys me is a year later I replaced 2 more tires, they had told me not to replace all 4 because 2 were still fine...well after I replaced the 2 other tires and now had 4 tires that were all much closer in tread depth suddenly 95% of my pulling problem went away.  My guess is the awd system is very sensitive to even small tire differences.  All my tires were the original OEM spec tires, I had gotten off schedule on replacing all 4 at same time due to blowing 2 relatively new tires at the same time due to driving over a chunk of metal debris.  Still the dealership was ridiculous that they never thought to just sell me 2 more tires when I kept complaining that it wasn't aligned.  

 

Edit- I just googled primewell those are some super cheapo chinese (technically singapore tires),  I would definitely buy some better safer tires before I spent $100's on alignments. Chinese tires are pretty scary when they randomly decide to disintegrate while your driving, I speak from experience, you get what you pay for.

It’s not the tires as I’ve stated before in the thread. Car was pulling with the factory tires on. 
Im fully convinced it’s something to do with the steerIng wheel or steering assembly. The wheel is just not centered. Its a degree or two off to the right 

[silverton]

On 1/29/2023 at 9:15 AM, ammcinnis said:

You seem to be describing two different problems. Which is it? Steering wheel not centered when driving straight? Car steers to the right when steering wheel is released? Either way, there's a TSB for that.

TSB_04-19-17_Steering_Pull_171227.pdf 593.07 kB · 5 downloads

This TSB leads down a rabbit hole that says to make a warranty claim for the tires.

On 1/30/2023 at 8:12 PM, Tom Pearl said:

Not mixed. All Primewell PS830/850. I don't know if they're directional, asymmetrical or what. Today the dealership inflated all tires to specs

Cheapest of the cheap tires, I don't really care if they fall under Bridgestone's umbrella, I don't like their tires either.

On 5/4/2023 at 7:05 PM, Tom Pearl said:

The primewells were installed a little over a year ago. I bought the car with the factory tires on it and they were heavily worn in an abnormally way reflective of the pull to the right.

'reflective' of a pull to the right?  Or did you actually notice a pull to the right? What did the wear on the tires look like?

9 hours ago, Tom Pearl said:

It’s not the tires as I’ve stated before in the thread. Car was pulling with the factory tires on. 
Im fully convinced it’s something to do with the steerIng wheel or steering assembly. The wheel is just not centered. Its a degree or two off to the right 

I still think its the tires.  The only way I will have confidence that it's not the tires is if you put this set of wheels/tires on another vehicle and it drives fine.

Just as an aside, a subaru specialty shop wont be as well outfitted as a dealership, I've worked at two and have missed some of the things the dealership provides.  You could try barking up SOA's tree and saying something like 'hey, my car does this thing and i've taken it in a bunch of times for the same complaint and they all say it's fine, while also confirming my complaint, can you help?'

[Tom Pearl]

Can somebody please explain how exactly cheap tires correlate to the specific issue I'm having? Like I said, the steering wheel is a few degrees off-center to the right. So when I’m driving straight and let go of the wheel the car starts drifting to the right. It seems to me, and I feel most people would agree that the off-center steering wheel is a much more likely culprit than cheap tires.

[madmax988]

The explanation as far as my limited understanding about these issues, (I have no idea what adjustments are and are not available on our legacies).  Is that the steering wheel can be aligned off center... my old jeep was like this the steering wheel would be cooked at like a 45 degree turn when you wanted it to drive straight.   

But what you seem to be describing isn't that the wheel isn't aligned to steering, instead the car pulls to the right and causes the steering wheel to turn a few degrees.  Something is causing it to pull to the right.  I only suggest tires because I had this exact issue and 2 tires on back, I forget the exact number but I think they were like maybe 3-4/16 smaller than 2 new tires on front and that was enough to cause 95% of my pull to the right.  Your car mightve been out of alignment or had a worn component with original tires. And when you put the prime wells on the problem was still there/or it was fixed, but after the tires had already worn funny.  Or might even have a slightly defective tire.  Tires do weird things sometimes I once had a brand name tire randomly after 2 years and like only 10k miles develop a huge softball sized bulge in the sidewall, but for 6 months it just caused a weird shake at certain speeds and no mechanic could spot the slight manufacturer defect.

[silverton]

13 hours ago, Tom Pearl said:

Can somebody please explain how exactly cheap tires correlate to the specific issue I'm having? Like I said, the steering wheel is a few degrees off-center to the right. So when I’m driving straight and let go of the wheel the car starts drifting to the right. It seems to me, and I feel most people would agree that the off-center steering wheel is a much more likely culprit than cheap tires.

I know this thread has been a bunch of people saying "it's the tires" and you just say "it's not because they're new".  If you're so certain that it's not, and all these mechanics are telling you everything about your car is fine, what do you think it could be? 

If the alignment is true.  What's left? The only thing that touches the road. Any kind of deviance in the shell of the tire will make the car do oddities.  How much QC do you think there is in a tire that's $60 your cost? I'm actually not finding these Primewell's on Firestone, Discount Tire, or Tire Rack at the moment; at least not in my size of 225/50R18. I actually can't find Primewell's from any reputable site, and no I do not consider amazon or walmart a reputable site.

https://www.firestonecompleteautocare.com/blog/tires/primewell-ps830-850-tires/   firestone carried this tire for less than three years. article written in 2020 with a dead link to the products.  Not a good sign, they probably warrantied so many of them due to complaints just like yours.

Edited December 22, 2023 by silverton

[Tom Pearl]

Im not saying it’s not the tires because they’re new. The car was doing this with the factory tires on. It’s not that I can’t beleive it’s the shitty primewells causing the problem either- although that’s hard for me to believe given the fact that the car was doing the same exact thing with the factory tires. What I’m simply asking is for someone to explain how exactly poor quality tires can cause this exact issue. Like, the science behind what is happening if that’s indeed the case. You can’t really just say “oh, your car is doing this distinct pull to the right even though the alignment is fine, so it must be the shitty set of tires you have on it.”

I swear it’s the steering wheel or assembly. I wish you guys could drive it. You would notice immediately. Something is off with the steering. 
 

I’m going to try a better set of tires at some point though to see what that does, although I can almost guarantee it won’t do anything. I feel it in my bones. I’m willing to try anything at this point though.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Tom Pearl

[Tom Pearl]

I’m starting to really consider the possibility that it’s all in my head. However, that can’t be the case since a number of people (both mechanics and non-mechanics) have driven the car and noticed it. I just can’t believe the mystery hasn’t been solved yet after several hundred dollars and about 10 trips to 6 different shops over a span of several years. It’s really something else. I will mention though that not one person even considered that it may be the cheap tires. It’s a really nice car, I love it, so it’s just killing me that it has this one silly yet incredibly annoying issue.

[madmax988]

1 hour ago, Tom Pearl said:

Im not saying it’s not the tires because they’re new. The car was doing this with the factory tires on. It’s not that I can’t beleive it’s the shitty primewells causing the problem either- although that’s hard for me to believe given the fact that the car was doing the same exact thing with the factory tires. What I’m simply asking is for someone to explain how exactly poor quality tires can cause this exact issue. Like, the science behind what is happening if that’s indeed the case. You can’t really just say “oh, your car is doing this distinct pull to the right even though the alignment is fine, so it must be the shitty set of tires you have on it.”

I swear it’s the steering wheel or assembly. I wish you guys could drive it. You would notice immediately. Something is off with the steering. 
 

I’m going to try a better set of tires at some point though to see what that does, although I can almost guarantee it won’t do anything. I feel it in my bones. I’m willing to try anything at this point though.

 

Because the subarus awd system is incredibly sensitive.  I belive most recommend no tires having more than 2/16 variation between tires buy my dealership said 4/16 was fine (I'm 90% sure my numbers are right but it was a few years ago so without pulling my service records I'd have to double check).  

I always assumed that just meant you'd risk excess tire wear or in an extreme case damage to the awd transfer box/ transmission.   But in my case the difference between front and rear was enough to cause a weird pull to the right that dealership couldn't solve.  

Car manuals usually want all 4 tires replaced at same time (which is rarely practical for most people) but with most cars it's bs cover their ass statements.  But with the subaru awd it definitely has at least some truth to it.  

 

Assuming the prime wells were even within spec enough to be the exact same size when they were brand new they might have also worn differently if you've had them for years now (how many miles have you driven? ).  I would definitely check tread depth inner middle and outer on all 4 tires and see if they are all even.  You can use a depth gauge or just a pocketful of loose change to check for an approximate estimate.

Also in terms of tires wearing the warranties are never great so cheap manufacturers will put some insane number  like this is an 80,000 mile tire! When literally nobody has ever gone that far on a set of them.

 

Even brand name tires rarely hit their warranty numbers even when they are more reasonable like 30,000-60,000 miles

 

 

[Tom Pearl]

These fractions you’re giving are variations in what exactly? Like what are they measurements of? 

[silverton]

Tire tread depth, generally measured in 1/32nd of an inch increments.  3/32" is the maximum allowable difference between tires on a Subaru.

Not likely you're issue here though as all yours were new.  I do wonder, maybe try taking the car to a performance type shop for an alignment, I know a lot of them outsource that stuff, but ones with in house alignment machines exist.  a "normy" shop can't figure it out, and honestly having worked at one, there aren't too many smart people at the dealerships.  they generally have one person who does all the diagnosis and the rest of them just turn wrenches. I know you mentioned an independent shop, was it a subaru specific one or just any brand?  if it wasn't subaru specific i would try to find one of those instead.

[Beamercub]

It sounds to me like something is bent somewhere.  Especially after being rear ended at some point:/"?

[silverton]

For some vindication, i have an 18 outback at my shop with a nasty pull to the right, even though i've got everything within .02 degrees of spec. and it's sitting on brand new OE tires.